Simon Weil Posted July 14, 2018 Report Share Posted July 14, 2018 (edited) My problem with England is the lack of creativity in the side, which is a generic problem with English sides - and a generic problem with the English (IMHO). That's part of the reason I was so negative about this WC, because I think they've just decided that work-rate and etc. is good enough. It's true that they're young, but I don't see them going very far without the creativity they don't seem capable of. Southgate is the first manager I've believed in for a while - and I think it matters that he's English to motivate the side. None of the foreign managers seem to have got the side up, which he has. In those terms he's probably the best manager they've had since Robson. N.B. I barely watched any of their stuff - just some highlights - but I'm not sure, if you strip the patriotism away, that I missed much. I loathed the way it was such a big deal on the news. God, it pissed me off how important people made this out to be. Edited July 14, 2018 by Simon Weil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidewinder Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, mjazzg said: How did Holland do? Not very well ! 1 hour ago, erwbol said: Since the seventies, on the whole probably a lot better than England, but that's beside the point. It's really a fluke that a team as average in quality and bereft of creativity as this England made it this far in the tournament. The only reason this is worth commenting on is the way the English characteristically dealt with it. Most overrated team in the tournament for sure. The needle’s stuck.. Edited July 15, 2018 by sidewinder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 As a non European, I don’t understand this negativity about England. People were excited because it looked like a team that had something, especially when you look at past history. What’s wrong with a little exuberance and passion for your country. Nothing as far as I can see. I know a lot of countries would have been thrilled to get as far as they did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Since we are on the England trip here again...for me one of the annoying elements of the English presence was listening to your national anthem. Not only it is musically primitive and uninspiring [imho, of course], but God save our gracious Queen! Long live our noble Queen! and the rest of it, to an outsider just feels tacky. I know England is proud of her traditions, and cherishes them...but nobody on your team seemed to go out of their way belting it out with any type of emotion; it looked more like a chore. They did progress to the final 4, and that is an excellent mark, which, hopefully, they will use as the creative spark. You've got a great keeper, good defenders, world-class forward. Your midfield is poor, work on it for the next two years, and you've got another top 4 team in the making! My sympathies are with the Belgians. They should have been in the final. An amazing collection of talent, the best I've seen in decades! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) Believe me, there are very many English and most definitely UK citizens who'd ditch that dirge in a trice. I find it an embarrassment and it's sentiments wholly outdated but then I'm a rabid republican It actually amuses me most of the time (but not all the time hence this post, I guess)the ire that the England football team seems to generate. For an average and limited team that's over performed and brought joy to a nation of football fans and non-fans alike they have certainly generated a disproportionate amount of discussion. (maybe it's the power of my and Sidewinder's prose? oops arrogance alert...) I'm never sure whether it's a product of history, footballing or otherwise, the current political situation with respect to EU, a largely outdated view of English fans or simply that the players' public profiles outstrip their ability. A lot's been written on this board about English arrogance which seems to be based on our media's reaction and one song "Football's coming home" the context of which has been sorely misunderstood. Thanks to Brad and Dmitry for even handed posts that completely avoid the sweeping national stereotypes of other posters. Anyhow, thankfully or otherwise we can now focus on France (often regarded as arrogant in the UK, the irony ) and Croatia. Allez Bleues!! Except for one follow up question... 9 hours ago, erwbol said: Since the seventies, on the whole probably a lot better than England, but that's beside the point. It's really a fluke that a team as average in quality and bereft of creativity as this England made it this far in the tournament. The only reason this is worth commenting on is the way the English characteristically dealt with it. Most overrated team in the tournament for sure. I didn't ask they'd done since the seventies did I? The discusion was about now, remind me again, how did Holland do in this WC? Well enough to be average in quality and bereft of creativity? Or does that describe the Dutch side's failure to qualify? Edited July 15, 2018 by mjazzg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dmitry Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 The current Dutch generation is a pale shadow of the ones from 45 years onward. The didn’t qualify justifiably. In all the WC and UEFA Cups I’ve watched, the Dutch were almost always my favorites. Italy was certainly mismanaged, but the Dutch...what’s happened to them?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 11 hours ago, sidewinder said: The needle’s stuck.. On English self-congratulation. 3 hours ago, mjazzg said: The discusion was about now, remind me again, how did Holland do in this WC? Well enough to be average in quality and bereft of creativity? Or does that describe the Dutch side's failure to qualify? The discussion did not involve the crisis of Dutch football at all, but focussed on the current World Cup. Much has been said domestically on the decline of Dutch football, and it does not involve the self-delusion and -congratulation displayed by the English media (and public) around its current team. Even at the time of their third place in Brazil 2014 the Dutch national team were being severely criticised at home, including by analysts at full-time on live television. It must be the Dutch brand of outspokenness that's troubling you. Though luck, chums, Johnny Foreigner has a mind of his own and is not afraid to speak it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) Your use of the phrase "Johnny Foreigner" in this context says so much more about your perspective than all your other well chosen words. Edited July 15, 2018 by mjazzg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 9 minutes ago, mjazzg said: Your use of the phrase "Johny Foreigner" in this context says so much more about your perspective than all your other well chosen words. I am glad you believe my use of chum was jolly good! I love putting in these silly British words when I can. Tally ho! Off to watch the final! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Arrogance is a charge that has been made about the English (as is the one about self-delusion) - including by someone English whose views I highly respect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 I wonder what country or sports team has not been accused of arrogance? Very few, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 For the record, the Dutch freely acknowledge we can be arrogant when it comes to our opinion of ourselves in sport. Perhaps the line between self-confidence accompanied by outspokenness, and arrogance is not always clear. See for instance Formula 1's Max Verstappen's character. Born in a Belgium to a Belgian mother and Dutch father, both racing families. Went to school in Belgium, but spent most of his youth racing surrounded by the Dutch. He feels Dutch and drives for the Netherlands. His attitude is very Dutch indeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 7 hours ago, Dmitry said: My sympathies are with the Belgians. They should have been in the final. An amazing collection of talent, the best I've seen in decades! At least they are leading the Tour de France, so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uli Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Allez les Bleus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) I'm really hoping Mbappe sets the final alight but also respect Modric very much as a footballer and would like to see him win a WC. But, on balance Allez Les Bleus! Edited July 15, 2018 by mjazzg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) and, thank you Mr. Lineker for articulating so well what that song and phrase, that has seemingly upset so many, means over here. Couldn't have put it better myself “Football’s coming home is a fun song highlighting the lack of success of our football team for decades. No one really thought we’d win it. I totally get why you might think it was arrogance, but it’s more our self-deprecatory sense of humour.” Edited July 15, 2018 by mjazzg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Allez les Bleus! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 I will go the other way: Idemo Hrvatska! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Somebody should tell the French team that the final game started 10 minutes ago .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjazzg Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Yes, Croats looking tired again... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soulpope Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Great goal by Mandzukic .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) Being behind is a situation that doesn't seem to bother Croatia. Hopefully, we will see more goals. I'd hate to see a final decided on a OG. Edited July 15, 2018 by Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Croatia! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 (edited) Shades of Pique. That one was easy to call. Croatia has literally handed France the lead. Edited July 15, 2018 by Brad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erwbol Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 They needed the helping hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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