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Racist lyrics in Mercer set?


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Interesting that there's been no response/allusion to this post from Cali, who by the standards of this thread is evidently yet another "oversensitive" African-American.

David, I said this a few posts back, but I think you are mis-characterizing the bulk of the contributions to this thread.

Guy

Guy, apologies if I've done so, though I really didn't see ANY response to Cali's post--outside of an indirect reference in something Allen said. I'm not somebody who enjoys disagreeing/arguing with people I genuinely like, & I've had some good exchanges offboard with a poster in this thread who feels quite differently than me about the topic at hand (which strikes me now as being about much more than a particular Johnny Mercer recording). So I'll take that away as a positive, plus the usual high Organissimo ratio of thought-provocation to post. Very cool people here, no matter how strong our likes/dislikes, personal reactions, etc., and I have a lot of faith in the intellectual good will and integrity that inhabit these online environs. Irony of ironies, I'm a Johnny Mercer fan, as stated before.. and still need to listen to disc 3 of the Select. I hope that Cali comes back more often & that tranemonk sticks around. I, too, think too much has been made of this--in a different sense. Anycase, I'll do my part at this point and move on.

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Summation of my "feelings" about all of this.

The song itself - "Of it's time"; If Fats Waller were to sing it, it would be "humorous". When Johnny Mercer sings it, it's..."uncomfortable".

Johnny Mercer - Unquestionably a "problematic" figure in a lot of ways. Also unquestionably gifted in a lot of ways. Such is life.

Tranemonk's reaction - his perogogative, absolutely. The fact taht I personally see bigger, more pressing issues myself should in no way be taken as an attempt to deny the validity of his feelings. It's a personal thing both ways, and should be respected as such and left at such, I think.

Cali - Always good to hear from him, and yeah, wish he'd post more. He's got a valuable perspective as somebody who really was there for a lot of stuff.

Mosaic - sloppy work on their part, period. I doubt that any offense was intentional, but the fact that they didn't at least provide some sort of contextualizing comment (it would only have taken like half a sentence) is insensitive. Now, good people can still fuck up (ask my wife), nobody's perfect (ditto), so why not just call it that and be done with it? Unless Mosaic tries to claim that there was no need to offer a few words of contextulazation as a simple courtesy, in which case, yes Houston, we do have a problem, then this is really all there is to it - they got careless and fucked up. Yet another example of Booby Hutchersonism.

White people in general - We can get kinda "funny" sometimes. I'd like to say that it's no big deal, because often enough it isn't, but sometimes it is. One of our biggest blindspots is confusing not intending any offense with not actually causing same. Read my lips peoples - IT AIN'T THE SAME THING.

CD Baby selling the Johnny Reb material - Still a big WTF? for me. I'm looking long and hard for any reason why I should ever buy anything from this outfit ever again and/or recommend that anybody else do, and I'm not finding an answer. There's always options. Y'all do your thing, but this is gonna have to be mine.

Indeed.

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And one more thing - at some point we are all going to have to "move on".

Unlike some, I don't consider that a matter of either forgiving and forgetting. No way. It's more about recognizing an incurably dysfunctional dynamic and juet leaving ti behind to rot itself to death once and for all.

I've just about reached the conclusion that "fixing" this shit is all but impossible. It's too fucked up in too many fundamentally incurable ways. So "moving on" in the context of something designed to trap you forever is a doomed propisition from jump. And that goes for perps and victims alike.

But...simply failing to participate in the bullshit is an option. Although like anything else "new", it might seem strange, and perhaps even impossible. It defitniely is not without awkwardness, especially in the early stages. But by god, it's a mattter of spirit over matter, and considering what you're getting yourself into if you don't go there, hey...

We all want to be brave (well, we all want to think we do anyway...), so dig - what's braver - staying in the same place trying to win a battle that is designed to kill you (yes, YOU, whoever you are) simply because that's all we've been conditioned to believe is possible, or daring to look at The Man behind the curtain, seeing that there ain't shit there, and stepping into tomorrow NOW.

We all have a choice. Once enough skin(s) get shed (and believe me, not all the skins we have are ones we were born with, much less entitiled to), we all have a choice.

Edited by JSngry
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recall Tex Ritter was on Capitol Records too. (non-sequitor?)

Not at all, and in fact, I personally recall Captiol as a label that for a very long time had a kinda "funny" vibe about jazz and "black music" in general. Seems like all their "artists of color" were presented in a "bleached" manner for quite a while (1950s-late 60s, and Cannonball kinda broke the mold, albeit in a way that a lot of "jazz people" don't wanna hear/think about...)). Could this have been a legacy of Johnny Mercer? Now, maybe they only signed artists who were prone to that in the first place, but you gotta wonder

Edited by JSngry
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some of ya'll, however well intentioned, are making THEE classic liberal mistake of believing we're still more divided by race-- one "race" at that-- than class

First, I agree with almost all of what Clem's being saying in this thread.

Second (and this is taking the thread way off-topic), I think Clem's quote above brings up an interesting topic (economics of race vs. class in the US) that I actually did some casual reading about after an online discussion. It's way outside the scope of this thread, but if you are interested in what I "discovered" then I'll be glad to PM you, with the upfront disclaimer that I'm pretty much a dilettante when it comes to this research/literature.

Guy

Edited by Guy
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glad Clem brought up the race vs class thing, because, though that's a whole other can of worms, it's a can worth opening - only thing I would add is that in the scheme of things race and ethnic identity often obscures the issue of class and even sometimes alter it - thinking, right away, of Jews in Nazi Germany - the German Jews were largely of the bourgeousie; some thought this tacit membership in the ruling class was protection from the class warfare of the right - obviously it wasn't. Also, many of the Russian Jews who supported the Russian revolution did so as part of a larger ideological belief that since the issue was class, the Russian people, post-revolution, would recognize the united Soviet people's front - didn't work out this way: Jews were purged from the party early on - and many went to live in Palestine and became the first colonists of what would become a Jewish state - which itself was a reflection of a resigned understanding that in light of certain kinds of bigotry, certain people would always remain isolated and separated as objects of distrust. Hence Obama, firmly ensconced in the upper middle class, will still not be trusted by many of his economic peers, simply because he is black. All of which doesn't mean I disagree with Clem, only that this stuff always gets more and more complicated as one looks at it more deeply -

Edited by AllenLowe
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first thing that popped up on Google...

http://gwpapers.virginia.edu/articles/news/nytimes.html

I guess I misunderstood. I thought you claimed that they were removing Washington's name from the textbooks or the curriculum. You were saying that they renamed the school! Well, I personally don't have a problem with that. School are renamed all the time, for various reasons. After JFK was assassinated, high schools all over the country changed their names to JFK. My high school considered it, but refused because they wanted to maintain their regional flavor (the school was named after the local Shaker sect, hence "Shaker H.S." Instead, the junior and senior high schools named the different halls after figures discussed in JFK's "Profiles in Courage" (and if THAT isn't a round about way to honor someone, I don't know what is).

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still, btw, gonna insist that everybody read the book Ragged But Right - run to your local bookstore - and don't forget your $75 - I will be posting a short quiz on it next week -

Yeah, okay.....when I head out to mail my check off to the Joe Biden campaign, I'll be sure to pick it up. Here's a quiz for you: name the top 5 zip codes that Obama's money comes in from?

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Can anyone tell me (briefly) why he is a "problematic" figure...

Because his uniquely Southern Genteelity came with no small portion of equally uniquely Southern paternalistic condescension towards African-Americans, resulting in a lot of "happy carefree man-child idiot savant" type projections. One very much gets the impression that Mercer would in no way recognize the act of "slumming" although his music often enough indicates that he was in fact a virtuoso practitioneer of it, at least mentally.

Damn fine lyricist nevertheless, one of the very best.

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Damn fine lyricist nevertheless, one of the very best.

Too bad, then, these were buried in that orchestrated Paul Weston et al. crap.

Sorry, and I realize might get stoned for saying this on big band forums but it still baffles me how diehard jazz fans (that I assume to be around here) can get so excited about this dreary, unswinging pop orchestra fare. Having listened to quite a few of those Mercer 78s in recent times (as mentioned elsewhere, they were included in a batch bought from an estate), I find that even by the standards of the somewhat more commercial SWING (as opposed to sweet) big bands this music is just nowhere swing and jazz-wise. You really have to make a LOT of concessions style-wise to file them under "jazzy" or "jazzed-up" music. ;)

Hey, there even are Jan Garber records out there that can outswing this Mercer/Weston stuff! :D

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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...but it still baffles me how diehard jazz fans (that I assume to be around here) can get so excited about this dreary, unswinging pop orchestra fare...

I like quite a bit of what could be termed "mid century orchestral pop." Yes, some of it can be dreary, but the top orchestral arrangers are right up there with any of the great jazz arrangers in my book.

I agree that Paul Weston could be schmaltzy - I've never heard an instrumental record of his that I liked - but I do like his arrangements with certain singers, such as Jo Stafford.

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If you like it as pop without any jazz pretenses that's fine (after all there even are jazz fans who like what is termed "exotica" in certain musical subcultures ;) ) but AFAIC as there have been so many great post-1945 jazz big bands out there those pop orchestras just don't do it for me and are a letdown and/or an outright drag each time, especially if string sections are involved.

Anyway, no two tastes are alike ... ;)

Edited by Big Beat Steve
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...especially if string sections are involved.

Strings have been very abused in pop music, usually doing little more than adding "sweetening." However, the strings are the most versatile section of the orchestra and are capable of a HUGE range of sounds and emotions. Too bad it's out of print, but an example of strings used to tremendous effect in an "orchestral pop" record is Les Baxter's "Caribbean Moonlight" album on Capitol. It's an album of latin-tinged standards arranged for percussion, winds, and strings (no brass), and the strings on this album are fantastic. With the right arranger/orchestrator, orchestral instruments and sections CAN be integrated into jazz setting, IMHO.

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Damn fine lyricist nevertheless, one of the very best.

Too bad, then, these were buried in that orchestrated Paul Weston et al. crap.

Sorry, and I realize might get stoned for saying this on big band forums but it still baffles me how diehard jazz fans (that I assume to be around here) can get so excited about this dreary, unswinging pop orchestra fare. Having listened to quite a few of those Mercer 78s in recent times (as mentioned elsewhere, they were included in a batch bought from an estate), I find that even by the standards of the somewhat more commercial SWING (as opposed to sweet) big bands this music is just nowhere swing and jazz-wise. You really have to make a LOT of concessions style-wise to file them under "jazzy" or "jazzed-up" music. ;)

Hey, there even are Jan Garber records out there that can outswing this Mercer/Weston stuff! :D

Ever hear Weston small band arrangements (with Nat King Cole for Capitol), or even his version of "Gentlemen Is a Dope" he did for Jo Stafford? They swing like mad!

The same you can apply for TD and his band - one of the best around 1941-45 period.

Edited by mmilovan
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...but it still baffles me how diehard jazz fans (that I assume to be around here) can get so excited about this dreary, unswinging pop orchestra fare...

I like quite a bit of what could be termed "mid century orchestral pop." Yes, some of it can be dreary, but the top orchestral arrangers are right up there with any of the great jazz arrangers in my book.

Right on.

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mmilovan, you are confusing things.

I have no grudge against Paul Weston per se, though I probably would never think "Hey, that's bound to be GRREEAT Swing music if he (of all bandleaders) provides the backing" if I came upon his name as providing the backing on some 78rpm by some unknown artist. ;)

He may have done nice, swinging arrangements for Nat King Cole and others.

But his combination wth Johnny Mercer just doesn't cut it for me - at least not JAZZ-wise (which is what it's all about here in THIS forum). I can see people liking it as POP music of the day. That's perfectly fine. I happen not to like most of what I've heard of this combination, that's all - even if I regard them as pop music of those times.

It's all a matter of taste anyway. ;)

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@ Big Band Steve,

:tup:cool:

Hmmm, not really confusing things, but rather trying to listen to the music, carefully... and to be open to various jazz and crossover jazz-to-pop categories!

You know, I've heard a lot of same things about Jo Stafford. Then, I listened to her in various interpretations she recorded for Capitol label. And all I can really tell is that we are dealing with one of the most perfect, clean, rhythmically unmistakable and real jazz singer - finest of them all - to put it shortly (and that is just right the same what Billie Holiday said about her). If you're lucky enough to get some of her records - you will hear how flexible is her approach in changing the melody, just similar if not equal as to that of (above mentioned) Billie Holiday. And some of tunes she and Weston did as "vocalize" can, without any further thinking, clearly be put to swing-to-bop genre.

Of course, this is not to prove Paul Weston was the finest of jazz big band arrangers during 1940-50 period, but just to emphasize he and his wife Jo are worth listening to.

And, what is most important, these are the words from former very hard-core oriented jazz fan. I dislike even Bird with strings earlier (for me, it wasn't jazz music then), but, my taste changed a bit during last ten years or so.

Edited by mmilovan
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You know, I've heard a lot of same things about Jo Stafford. Then, I listened to her in various interpretations she recorded for Capitol label. And all I can really tell is that we are dealing with one of the most perfect, clean, rhythmically unmistakable and real jazz singer - finest of them all - to put it shortly (and that is just right the same what Billie Holiday said about her).

I don't know whether I'd call Stafford a jazz singer, but it really doesn't matter. She's a fine singer with a wonderful feeling for a song, and a beautiful understated style that really does a song justice. Aside from the overtly novelty fare that Columbia foisted on her, her recorded output is of a consistently high standard.

She's one of my absolute favorite singers, jazz or otherwise.

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