Luciano Pavarotti, dead at 71

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Anyway, I conclude that the music REALLY doesn't matter; the social milieu is all important and those who seek to promote a different view have a (not very well) hidden political agenda.

One could argue that this is also the case with going to orchestra concerts in the US. Not among everyone in the audience, of course, but a significant percentage.

I wouldn't say you're wrong there. Opera seems to be a bit different in that, in Britain anyway, it is subsidised to hell, AND FOR THE SAKE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE THE RICHEST AND MOST POWERFUL IN THE LAND, and who, therefore, could well afford unsubsidised opera. But they are also the group in control of the subsidies.

MG

[JSngry]

The history of music minus the history of opera would be a fairly weird, distorted thing. Jim is of course perfectly free to step away from it himself if it doesn't work for him, for the "Don't have the time or the taste for this" reasons he gives, and so is anyone else. But I and a whole lot of people who aren't at all culture vultures feel otherwise. And we haven't even mentioned ballet!

The history of one kind of music, yeah...

Maybe it's a chronological thing, but I was born at such a time that not too terribly far into my "personal developement" I became aware of whole parts of the world's music for which stuff like opera and ballet wasn't really...relevant. And although those musics weren't any more directly relevant to me than this other stuff, they weren't any less relevant either...

Point being - at one time in America (or the world, really), you didn't have a lot of options. You either went the Euro-Cultural route, the middlebrow route, or the roots (hillbilly, blues, etc.) route. And if you were really hip, you took jazz. That was pretty much all there was... Africa, Asia, South America, the rest of the world, was not really there for full-flavored consideration.

Not that it still is, but whereas once upon a time, my love for James Brown kinda hit a dead end as far as where it came from and where it would lead to. But that was looking at it in a strictly American/Western arena. But before I hit 20, that was beginning to no longer be the case, and by the time I was 25, that was definitely not the case. The first time I heard Fela, it was like...O.....K! And electric Miles no longer seemed like an fascinatingly eccentric path travelled by an always idiosyncratic musician as much as it did one of the opening acts of a long unfolding set of musics for which old-school Western criteria and practices were just not...really needed. And from what I was hearing/feeling/thinking as a result of contact with these musics, they were certainly none the worse for it.

Add to that the fact that my background - Southern, semi-rural, with absolutely no strong cultural/esthetic ties to the "Old World" of Western European culture (the closest we got was being Missouri Synod Lutheran, and that's pretty old skool constipated, but East Texas Redneck Missouri Synod Lutherans are at least as much East Texas Rednecks as they are Missouri Synod Lutherans...), and you got somebody for whom the "sense of duty" to accept all this preordained stuff at face value as part of my "obligation" to be a Responsible Artist And Cultured Human Being was somewaht less than...compelling. There were just too many other options by that time.

Which is not to say that I deny the validity of that tradition, nor is it to say that I have not explored and been inspired by much of it. I have, and I continue to be. It is just to say that if the object of any art is to inspire, elevate, and awaken, then there is plenty available from all over the world - including America! - that has done that for me quite more organically than has opera. And with the passage of time, the notion that "the history of music minus the history of opera would be a fairly weird, distorted thing." is a concept that frankly seems quaint, naive, and even perhaps unintentionally chauvinistic.

Now don't get me wrong. Just becuase I have "other priorities" does not mean that I turn my back on all of "Western Civilization". That would be both impossible and stupid. It does mean however, that even the biggest plate (to use Oliver Lake's analogy) doen not have room for infinite portions of ifinite possibilities. At some point, choices must be made. And when it comes to choosing opera, I look at it like the space on the plate can usually be allocated elsewhere with no loss of either sensual, intellectual, or spiritual nourishment.

Mileages will obviously vary on this, but mileage often depends on the peculiarities of any given selected route.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

QRT Jim!

MG

[CJ Shearn]

I'm not a fan either but what a voice, and very sad.

[Epithet]

The self-congratulatory smugness of the supposed anti-smugness here is something else.

Don't forget the 10,000 words of

.

[7/4]

The self-congratulatory smugness of the supposed anti-smugness here is something else.

Don't forget the 10,000 words of

.

"No sir, I don't like it."

[Larry Kart]

The history of one kind of music, yeah...

Yeah -- and what a kind.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The history of one kind of music, yeah...

Yeah -- and what a kind.

I think that's the problem, Larry. The whole tone of that remark is wrong for me. European classical music isn't any better or more worthy of attention than R&B, Jazz, Funk, Reggae, Gospel music, Hip hop, Mbalax, Mbaqanga, Zouglou or any other kind of music. And it isn't any worse, or less worthy of attention, either. Which ones a person decides to become enthusiastic about is a matter of personal taste - and perhaps personal cultural background.

So get off your high horse, young sir

MG

[JSngry]

The history of one kind of music, yeah...

Yeah -- and what a kind.

Wow.

[Larry Kart]

The history of one kind of music, yeah...

Yeah -- and what a kind.

I think that's the problem, Larry. The whole tone of that remark is wrong for me. European classical music isn't any better or more worthy of attention than R&B, Jazz, Funk, Reggae, Gospel music, Hip hop, Mbalax, Mbaqanga, Zouglou or any other kind of music. And it isn't any worse, or less worthy of attention, either. Which ones a person decides to become enthusiastic about is a matter of personal taste - and perhaps personal cultural background.

So get off your high horse, young sir

MG

The kind of music I'm talking about, the kind that opera is one significant part of, runs in a relatively unbroken stream from, at the very least, Leonin (b. circa 1135) and Perotin (b. circa 1160) to the present. That's almost ten centuries. You can talk about fallow periods, dis that music's present and recent past if you wish, and complain about rich snotty bastards in Great Britain and elsewhere who get their Glyndebournes subsidized, but we're still left with a pretty astonishing body of work, in terms of quality, variety, and volume. Again, and of course, one likes what one likes -- "personal taste [plus] personal cultural background." But -- and I say this as someone whose entire life has been shaped by my discovery and love for jazz -- give me a call when we're into the tenth century of that music, and of R&B, Jazz, Funk, Reggae, Gospel music, Hip hop, Mbalax, Mbaqanga, Zouglou, etc. I see the smiley face, but IMO this whole discussion has been corrupted by allegations of high horse-ism. Yes, some people who love the music I mentioned up top are snotty bastards; I am not, nor are a whole lot of other people who love it. Further, if snotty-bastardism lies at the heart of that music, as you seem to come close to saying at times, how over all that time could all that music -- some of which you surely acknowledge as marvelous -- have been made in the first place? Snotty bastards tend to produce art that's hollow crap, right? Also -- and this may the main point I want to make as this jawfest, I hope, winds down -- just because you love Machaut, Mozart, and Monteverdi doesn't mean that you can't love the Swan Silverstones or Dock Boggs or James Brown. I know plenty of people who do, including people who post here all the time and don't ride high horses. Yet again -- personal taste has to prevail. I'm just saying, don't let your/our/anyone's curiosity be curtailed by cultural politics.

[Joe G]

Whatever happened to "It's all good" ... ?

[Larry Kart]

Whatever happened to "It's all good" ... ?

Nothing -- except that sometimes it's used as an excuse (or even as something close to a demand) to stop thinking and talking.

[rostasi]

Actually, opera didn't begin until about 1600 (Monteverdi).

Sound has been around a long time tho!

[7/4]

I don't think about opera too much. Someone has to die for me to think about it and even then there's not too much to think about for me.

[Larry Kart]

Actually, opera didn't begin until about 1600 (Monteverdi).

Right, but the kind of music within which/from which opera arose had its beginnings, at the very least, when I said -- around or before 1200.

[Teasing the Korean]

...I'm just saying, don't let your/our/anyone's curiosity be curtailed by cultural politics.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm sure you can at least understand that cultural politics can get in the way of one's initial appreciation of something, can't they?

The sad part is that the opposite also occurs - People who appreciate what in enshrined as "fine art" but who dismiss other types of art because they're not "supposed" to like it or take it seriously.

[Larry Kart]

...I'm just saying, don't let your/our/anyone's curiosity be curtailed by cultural politics.

I agree with what you're saying, but I'm sure you can at least understand that cultural politics can get in the way of one's initial appreciation of something, can't they?

The sad part is that the opposite also occurs - People who appreciate what in enshrined as "fine art" but who dismiss other types of art because they're not "supposed" to like it or take it seriously.

Yes, to both.

[JSngry]

-- give me a call when we're into the tenth century of that music, and of R&B, Jazz, Funk, Reggae, Gospel music, Hip hop, Mbalax, Mbaqanga, Zouglou, etc.

False analogy. Thanks to technologies (especially those of dissementation), time "moves" faster than it used to. It's hardly an original observation that it took jazz less than a century to move through all the cycles that it took "classical" music several centuries to go through, and there's no question that things like radio, television, & the phonograph (to say nothing of the accelerated speed of actualy physical transportation) is perhaps the most significant reason why.

[JSngry]

Whatever happened to "It's all good" ... ?

I for one never said that it's not.

All I said was that, yeah, it's good, but I'll take a pass in favor of other things. Apparently that triggers a feeling of rejection in some.

I'm reminded of Cecil Taylor's comment along the lines that "white people" can not disabuse themselves of the notion that they have some indefinable something that non-white people want.

Well, this isn't exactly about that, but when I say that I've given opera a thorough general examination and have concluded that, no, there's not anything there that I particularly want, much less need. then the response is all this "oh but there's such a great history to this, it's part fo the Great Tradition, you can't understandThe History Of All The Music In All The History Of All The World" type stuff that feels to me more than a little as if I'm being told that there's something wrong with me because of my decision, or at the very least that I'm making my decision based on cultural politics and not musical objectivity, and that, c'mon, get real, who are you kidding, you know it's Great Music.

Well, golly gee-whiz, guess what - I've made my decision based solely on personal, musical grounds, and no, there's nothing wrong with me. Strange as it might seem, "it's all good" doesn't mean that "it all works for me". I can, and do, appreciate -or am working on appreciating - damn near everything. But if something doesn't "work" for me after a "darn good look", including Great Music, then I feel no need to fake the love, or even the like. And somebody who's gotten metaphorical death threats about not loving, much less even liking Bill Evans ought to...have at least some part of a clue about this...

Opera & metal - the two genres that, a few specifics aside - do absolutely nothing for me. Doesn't mean that they're not "good", or that they're not "significant" (or in the case of opera - Significant - no sarcasm intended), just that they don't give me anything significant and/or anything that I don't get better - for me - elsewhere. I fully recognize, accept, and even...welcome the fact that for many, many other people, an undeniably large # of people over an undeniably large period of time, that this is not the case. But I am not one of them.

Sorry if that's a "problem", but if it is, it for damned sure ain't my proplem.

Edited September 9, 2007 by JSngry

[JSngry]

I'm just saying, don't let your/our/anyone's curiosity be curtailed by cultural politics.

And I'm just saying, don't let the decisions that result from your/our/anyone's curiosity be influenced by cultural politics, one way or the other.

And also, don't take of somebody else's decisions personally, one way or the other.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

The kind of music I'm talking about, the kind that opera is one significant part of, runs in a relatively unbroken stream from, at the very least, Leonin (b. circa 1135) and Perotin (b. circa 1160) to the present. That's almost ten centuries. ... but we're still left with a pretty astonishing body of work, in terms of quality, variety, and volume. But give me a call when we're into the tenth century of that music

Calling Larry, calling Larry... Bzzz Bzzz.

Longevity, of course, does not, of itself indicate quality. However, African music, particularly among the Mandinke of West Africa, goes back a long way. I have in my collection a recording of a piece attributed to Balla Fasseke, known as Kouyate (the first of the eminent Kouyate family), who was Djali to Sundiata, the first Emperor of Mali (Q2, 13th C). Culturally, the Mandinke are closely related to the Sonninke (Serahule), whose empire was first mentioned by North African writers in 800, but which is believed to have been created sometime before the third century AD. There are, of course, serious differences between the music of the Mandinke and of the Sonninke, but also great similarities.

The following is a quote from the UNESCO General History of Africa vol III: “Africa from the Seventh to the Eleventh Century”, pp 143-145, edited by I Hrbek

Throughout the Moslem world of the Middle Ages, people not only enjoyed occasional indulgence in verse writing and philosophical discussion, but also enjoyed drinking, singing and dancing, especially at the courts. The djariyas, trained in the singing and dancing schools of Medina and Baghdad, were much sought after and their price sometimes involved stupendous sums. Famous composers were similarly sought after. One of these was Ziryab (789-852), a black mawla of the Abbasids. After spending some time in Kayrawan, he went to Cordoba at the invitation of al-Hakam I (796-822). Ziryab brought profound changes to the customs of the court and the ruling class in society and became the arbiter elegantiae for it. His music, aided by certain instrumental improvements of his own invention, soon replaced all the old melodies and has lived on through the centuries until today. The maluf, which is still in fashion in the Mahgrib today, and Spanish flamenco are remotely descended from the revolution brought about in music by Ziryab.

Now, it is not clear from what part of sun-Saharan Africa Ziryab hailed. But that he was from sub-Saharan Africa (and probably a slave) can't be doubted. The Sonninke Empire (referred to by the North Africans as Ghana - Land of gold) whose capital, Koumbi Saleh, was in what is now south eastern Mauritania, was the main trading partner (for slaves as well as gold) of the North Africans in those days. It is also interesting, though not conclusive in any way, since we do not know which word derived from which, to note the similarity of the Arabic word djariya to the Mandinke word djeliya.

I conclude from such meagre evidence as exists that Balla Fasseke did not arise fully formed from nothing but was the contemporary leader of a music tradition that had been well established for many centuries and which MAY have had some impact on music beyond its normal cultural frontiers. (It may also have had a significant impact on American black music, since the Mandinke was the most in-demand tribe at the slave markets of Charleston. Actually, I am convinced of this myself.)

Please understand, Larry, that I am not putting European classical music down. I sold all but one of my classical records nearly forty years ago because I concluded that I could not afford to pursue that music as well as all these other kinds of music in which I am interested. I am merely against the notion that there is any special virtue in it that cannot be possessed by any other kind of music. And neither longevity nor volume of output make any kind of music qualify over any other, in my book.

MG

Edited September 9, 2007 by The Magnificent Goldberg

[Larry Kart]

Whatever happened to "It's all good" ... ?

I for one never said that it's not.

All I said was that, yeah, it's good, but I'll take a pass in favor of other things. Apparently that triggers a feeling of rejection in some.

I'm reminded of Cecil Taylor's comment along the lines that "white people" can not disabuse themselves of the notion that they have some indefinable something that non-white people want.

Well, this isn't exactly about that, but when I say that I've given opera a thorough general examination and have concluded that, no, there's not anything there that I particularly want, much less need. then the response is all this "oh but there's such a great history to this, it's part fo the Great Tradition, you can't understandThe History Of All The Music In All The History Of All The World" type stuff that feels to me more than a little as if I'm being told that there's something wrong with me because of my decision, or at the very least that I'm making my decision based on cultural politics and not musical objectivity, and that, c'mon, get real, who are you kidding, you know it's Great Music.

Well, golly gee-whiz, guess what - I've made my decision based solely on personal, musical grounds, and no, there's nothing wrong with me. Strange as it might seem, "it's all good" doesn't mean that "it all works for me". I can, and do, appreciate -or am working on appreciating - damn near everything. But if something doesn't "work" for me after a "darn good look", including Great Music, then I feel no need to fake the love, or even the like. And somebody who's gotten metaphorical death threats about not loving, much less even liking Bill Evans ought to...have at least some part of a clue about this...

Opera & metal - the two genres that, a few specifics aside - do absolutely nothing for me. Doesn't mean that they're not "good", or that they're not "significant" (or in the case of opera - Significant - no sarcasm intended), just that they don't give me anything significant and/or anything that I don't get better - for me - elsewhere. I fully recognize, accept, and even...welcome the fact that for many, many other people, an undeniably large # of people over an undeniably large period of time, that this is not the case. But I am not one of them.

Sorry if that's a "problem", but if it is, it for damned sure ain't my proplem.

I can't remember all of this clearly enough anymore, but some posters on this topic (but not, I think, Jim) have said or implied that there's something wrong with us if we are among those who feel that " there's a great history to this, it's part of a [not, for me, THE] Great Tradition." The "cultural politics" thing came up because it was being said over and over here ( but, again, not I think by Jim) that opera in particular was pretty much a rich white folk's snobfest. I don't believe I ever said that Jim's likes and dislikes were determined by cultural politics (because I certainly don't think so); that kind of thinking was being brought to bear here, unfairly I thought, in the other direction -- the implication being that mostly assholes liked, say, "The Marriage of Figaro," because doing so made them feel superior or something. Please, let that be the last thing I say on this!

[7/4]

Opera & metal - the two genres that, a few specifics aside - do absolutely nothing for me.

Didn't you say the same thing about progrock?

[Free For All]

Please, let that be the last thing I say on this!

Good enough then.

OK, what about ballet?

[JSngry]

Opera & metal - the two genres that, a few specifics aside - do absolutely nothing for me.

Didn't you say the same thing about progrock?

Metal, progrock, six of one, 5.9 of the other.

AFAIC.

YMMV.