Claude

New Blue Note 45rpm sets

282 posts in this topic

Have you worked with Rudy?

He obviously knew the mono records were going to be made from the stereo masters, and mono was the dominant format. The piano and bass come in the mix relative to drums and horns when you play back those records in mono, and overall, the balance is better. I don't need to work with him; I have ears. Whether I'm right or wrong about his intentions, the records are better balanced in mono (in most cases).

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I did a quick google to figure out what YMMV means and found this.

•What is the meaning of YMMV? What does YMMV stand for?

Definition: YMMV stands for "Your Mileage May Vary" the escort does certain things with one guy, but not with another - depending on her mood or a many other reasons.

:crazy:

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So you have to get up with these and flip them over every 8 or 10 minutes?

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I did a quick google to figure out what YMMV means and found this.

•What is the meaning of YMMV? What does YMMV stand for?

Definition: YMMV stands for "Your Mileage May Vary" the escort does certain things with one guy, but not with another - depending on her mood or a many other reasons.

:crazy:

But don't you get what you pay for?

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So you have to get up with these and flip them over every 8 or 10 minutes?

Yep, you spare the money for the gym. And if they would press the records in increasing weight, starting from 180 grams up to 100 kg, after you listened to all of them you'll be ready for Mister Olimpia

ronnie-fls.jpg

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To hell with 45's, I'll wait for the ultimate regression:

BlueNotecylinder.jpg

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I'm curious about the "limited edition" status of these Hoffman/Gray projects. Is the limitation set by the company who owns the masters - in this case, EMI - or by the record company leasing the material?

The reason I'm wondering is that if it's the latter, it seems that they're doing so to create a cachet product - "You can own one of a only thousand copies pressed." (I'm guessing that's what it will be, as that was the limitation on the Prestige/Riverside/Contemporary/Fantasy 45 reissues.) I can understand the record company doing that, since they want to recoup their investment and more as quickly as possible.

My beef is with Hoffman and Gray. According to what I've read, they're supposed to be music lovers. If they truly believe that their presentation is the "best", why do they go along with a limitation of 1000? One would think that they would want to present their work to a larger number of people over a longer period of time. If these are truly the best sounding Blue Notes, shouldn't more than 1000 people hear them? I realize that Hoffman and Gray don't own the record company - tho I've never heard of Music Matters & for all I know maybe they do own a piece of it - but their reputations mean something and they must have some pull - Music Matters is using their names to sell this project. Why couldn't they use their influence to increase the limitation, lower the prices, and make their version of the music available to a wider audience? One would think that they'd want more than 1000 people to hear what they've done.

As I said, I don't know who sets the limitation. I do know that Mosaics are limited, but they've been limited to from 2500 to 10,000 IIRC, and are generally available for at least several years before their time limitation ends.

If EMI has set the limitation at 1000, I stand corrected. If Music Matters set the limitation to create a cachet item - and Hoffman & Gray went along with it - that sucks.

Edited by paul secor

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I'm curious about the "limited edition" status of these Hoffman/Gray projects. Is the limitation set by the company who owns the masters - in this case, EMI - or by the record company leasing the material?

The reason I'm wondering is that if it's the latter, it seems that they're doing so to create a cachet product - "You can own one of a only thousand copies pressed." (I'm guessing that's what it will be, as that was the limitation on the Prestige/Riverside/Contemporary/Fantasy 45 reissues.) I can understand the record company doing that, since they want to recoup their investment and more as quickly as possible.

My beef is with Hoffman and Gray. According to what I've read, they're supposed to be music lovers. If they truly believe that their presentation is the "best", why do they go along with a limitation of 1000? One would think that they would want to present their work to a larger number of people over a longer period of time. If these are truly the best sounding Blue Notes, shouldn't more than 1000 people hear them? I realize that Hoffman and Gray don't own the record company - tho I've never heard of Music Matters & for all I know maybe they do own a piece of it - but their reputations mean something and they must have some pull - Music Matters is using their names to sell this project. Why couldn't they use their influence to increase the limitation, lower the prices, and make their version of the music available to a wider audience? One would think that they'd want more than 1000 people to hear what they've done.

As I said, I don't know who sets the limitation. I do know that Mosaics are limited, but they've been limited to from 2500 to 10,000 IIRC, and are generally available for at least several years before their time limitation ends.

If EMI has set the limitation at 1000, I stand corrected. If Music Matters set the limitation to create a cachet item - and Hoffman & Gray went along with it - that sucks.

I can't speak for anyone involved, but this is intended as a limited edition audiophile-targeted product... so to complain that it's then limited seems rather silly. EMI certainly doesn't want this product to compete with theiir CD sales, so they likely require it being targeted to another audience: those few who still spin vinyl. Vinyl is a tough enough sell to the general public, so many of the LPs pressed these days are targeted to the audiophile... hence the 45 rpm pressng, the thick vinyl, the limited numbers, etc. Yeah, it's a "collectors" product, driven by a certain business model. I'm not sure you can blame the guys that master it any more than you can blame Ron McMaster for Blue Note's CD reissue series. Personally I wish these were cut at 33 and dropped in price, but I'm not really the market for them.

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I'm curious about the "limited edition" status of these Hoffman/Gray projects. Is the limitation set by the company who owns the masters - in this case, EMI - or by the record company leasing the material?

The reason I'm wondering is that if it's the latter, it seems that they're doing so to create a cachet product - "You can own one of a only thousand copies pressed." (I'm guessing that's what it will be, as that was the limitation on the Prestige/Riverside/Contemporary/Fantasy 45 reissues.) I can understand the record company doing that, since they want to recoup their investment and more as quickly as possible.

My beef is with Hoffman and Gray. According to what I've read, they're supposed to be music lovers. If they truly believe that their presentation is the "best", why do they go along with a limitation of 1000? One would think that they would want to present their work to a larger number of people over a longer period of time. If these are truly the best sounding Blue Notes, shouldn't more than 1000 people hear them? I realize that Hoffman and Gray don't own the record company - tho I've never heard of Music Matters & for all I know maybe they do own a piece of it - but their reputations mean something and they must have some pull - Music Matters is using their names to sell this project. Why couldn't they use their influence to increase the limitation, lower the prices, and make their version of the music available to a wider audience? One would think that they'd want more than 1000 people to hear what they've done.

As I said, I don't know who sets the limitation. I do know that Mosaics are limited, but they've been limited to from 2500 to 10,000 IIRC, and are generally available for at least several years before their time limitation ends.

If EMI has set the limitation at 1000, I stand corrected. If Music Matters set the limitation to create a cachet item - and Hoffman & Gray went along with it - that sucks.

I can't speak for anyone involved, but this is intended as a limited edition audiophile-targeted product... so to complain that it's then limited seems rather silly. EMI certainly doesn't want this product to compete with theiir CD sales, so they likely require it being targeted to another audience: those few who still spin vinyl. Vinyl is a tough enough sell to the general public, so many of the LPs pressed these days are targeted to the audiophile... hence the 45 rpm pressng, the thick vinyl, the limited numbers, etc. Yeah, it's a "collectors" product, driven by a certain business model. I'm not sure you can blame the guys that master it any more than you can blame Ron McMaster for Blue Note's CD reissue series. Personally I wish these were cut at 33 and dropped in price, but I'm not really the market for them.

I realize that "EMI doesn't want this product to compete with their CD sales". And it doesn't - it competes even less than a Mosaic box does. I was just questioning who set the limitation.

As far as Ron McMaster goes, I don't see Blue Note trying to sell CDs off his name. On the other hand, I'll bet that Rudy Van Gelder has had some say in what he's done. And I bet that Hoffman & Gray do also.

Don't want to get into any kind of craziness over this. I probably won't buy any of them, anyway. I'm just curious if anyone knows who set the limitation on this series of BNs.

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I'm curious about the "limited edition" status of these Hoffman/Gray projects. Is the limitation set by the company who owns the masters - in this case, EMI - or by the record company leasing the material?

The reason I'm wondering is that if it's the latter, it seems that they're doing so to create a cachet product - "You can own one of a only thousand copies pressed." (I'm guessing that's what it will be, as that was the limitation on the Prestige/Riverside/Contemporary/Fantasy 45 reissues.) I can understand the record company doing that, since they want to recoup their investment and more as quickly as possible.

My beef is with Hoffman and Gray. According to what I've read, they're supposed to be music lovers. If they truly believe that their presentation is the "best", why do they go along with a limitation of 1000? One would think that they would want to present their work to a larger number of people over a longer period of time. If these are truly the best sounding Blue Notes, shouldn't more than 1000 people hear them? I realize that Hoffman and Gray don't own the record company - tho I've never heard of Music Matters & for all I know maybe they do own a piece of it - but their reputations mean something and they must have some pull - Music Matters is using their names to sell this project. Why couldn't they use their influence to increase the limitation, lower the prices, and make their version of the music available to a wider audience? One would think that they'd want more than 1000 people to hear what they've done.

As I said, I don't know who sets the limitation. I do know that Mosaics are limited, but they've been limited to from 2500 to 10,000 IIRC, and are generally available for at least several years before their time limitation ends.

If EMI has set the limitation at 1000, I stand corrected. If Music Matters set the limitation to create a cachet item - and Hoffman & Gray went along with it - that sucks.

I can't speak for anyone involved, but this is intended as a limited edition audiophile-targeted product... so to complain that it's then limited seems rather silly. EMI certainly doesn't want this product to compete with theiir CD sales, so they likely require it being targeted to another audience: those few who still spin vinyl. Vinyl is a tough enough sell to the general public, so many of the LPs pressed these days are targeted to the audiophile... hence the 45 rpm pressng, the thick vinyl, the limited numbers, etc. Yeah, it's a "collectors" product, driven by a certain business model. I'm not sure you can blame the guys that master it any more than you can blame Ron McMaster for Blue Note's CD reissue series. Personally I wish these were cut at 33 and dropped in price, but I'm not really the market for them.

Agree, though I bet that there are more then 1000 "audiophiles" out there ready to buy this stuff. I know Ron Rambach of Music Matters, I use to buy used records from him and he's a nice guy. I think that the "limited edition" is the only way, as Mosaic, to have the masters for the job. And "collector's item" it's getting the only way to make some money from this business.

Mosaic numbers were usually higher because they used to have both vinyl and cd. And I think that was a kind of trade off: Mosaic does the job in the vaults, researches, mastering, ecc., Emi allowed Mosaic to press first, then they take over.

Another point could be that, to some extent, a big corporate thinks that reputable small labels, like Mosaic or audiophile labels, can sell their catalogue better. How many Mosaic Select did you buy only because they are "Mosaic"?

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Nothing like having to move the belt position on my turntable, get up after every one or two tunes to flip sides or change records, and part with $50 a pop for music that I've already purchased at least twice.

My thoughts exactly.

Re: the number of sets pressed. It may vary with different labels and artists. In August, Classic Records could no longer press quite a few Atlantic labeled records like Led Zeppelin's catalog, Genesis, C,S,N &Y and a few others. Sometimes they purchase the right to press a certain number of pressings and when they are gone, that's it. It is a niche market and what the reissue label doesn't want is a warehouse full of records that aren't selling. This is why they usually release very popular titles. One of my big beefs with some of these audiophile labels is that, especially rock records, they pick such middle of the road albums (imo) that I have no interest in buying in any format. Journey? Al Jarreau? Super Tramp?

I bought a jazz title pressed by MOFI by Paul Desmond and Gerry Mulligan called Blues In Time because I was starting to get into Paul Desmond at the time. Why this title when Paul had all those great RCA albums that I have since acquired? The MOFI album looks and sounds great but the music is nowhere near as interesting to me as his other albums that I've bought.

It wasn't until Classic Records came around that choices of reissue projects started turning towards my taste.

Edited by six string

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Here's the list of titles from Steve...

1.BLP 1517 Gil Melle- Patterns In Jazz

2.BLP 1524 Kenny Dorham - 'Round About Midnight At The Cafe Bohemia

3.BLP 1526 Clifford Brown -Memorial Album

4.BLP 1535 Kenny Dorham -Afro-Cuban

5.BLP 1536 J.R. Monterose

6.BLP 1538 Lee Morgan- Indeed!

7.BLP 1539 Horace Silver- 6 Pieces of Silver

8.BST 1557 Lee Morgan-Vol. 3

9.BST 1559 Johnny Griffin-Vol. 2 - A Blowing Session

10.BST 1560 Hank Mobley - Hank

11.BST 1562 Horace Silver - The Stylings Of Silver

12.BST 1566 Lou Donaldson -Vol. 3 - Swing And Soul

13.BST 1568 Hank Mobley

14.BST 1573 John Jenkins -With Kenny Burrell

15.BST 1575 Lee Morgan - City Lights

16.BST 1576 Sonny Clark - Sonny's Crib

17.BST 1578 Lee Morgan - The Cooker

18.BST 1580 Johnny Griffin - The Congregation

19.BST 1581 Sonny Rollins - A Night At The Village Vanguard

20.BST 1587 Bennie Green - Back On The Scene

21.BST 1588 Sonny Clark - Cool Struttin'

22.BST 1590 Lee Morgan - Candy

23.BST 1591 Lou Donaldson - Lou Takes Off

24.BST 1599 Bennie Green - Soul Stirrin'

25.BST 84012 Lou Donaldson - LD +3

26.BST 84024 Jackie McLean - Swing, Swang, Swingin'

27.BST 84029 Art Blakey- The Big Beat

28.BST 84031 Hank Mobley - Soul Station

29.BST 84037 Horace Parlan -Us Three

30.BST 84040 Freddie Hubbard - Open Sesame

31.BST 84041 Tina Brooks - True Blue

32.BST 84043 Horace Parlan- Speakin My Piece

33.BST 84045 Freddie Redd - Shades Of Red!

34.BST 84052 Tina Brooks - Back To The Tracks

35.BST 84057 Donald Byrd- The Cat Walk

36.BST 84058 Hank Mobley - Roll Call

37.BST 84059 Kenny Drew- Undercurrent

38.BST 84062 Horace Parlan - Headin' South

39.BST 84163 Eric Dolphy- Out To Lunch

40.BST 84067 Jackie McLean- Bluesnik

41.BST 84070 Stanley Turrentine -Up At Minton's, Vol. 2

42.BST 84074 Horace Parlan- Spur of The Moment

43.BST 84077 Dexter Gordon - Doin’ Allright

44.BST 84082 Horace Parlan - Up And Down

45.BST 84091 Sonny Clark- Leapin’ and Lopin’

46.BST 84096 Stanley Turrentine - That's Where It's At

47.BST 84106 Jackie McLean - Let Freedom Ring

48.BST 84133 Dexter Gordon - A Swingin' Affair

49.BST 84135 Freddie Hubbard - Here To Stay

50.BST 84144 Johnny Coles - Little Johnny C

51.BST 84152 Joe Henderson - Our Thing

52.BST 84163 Eric Dolphy-Out To Lunch

53.BST 84169 Lee Morgan-Search For The New Land

54.BST 84182 Wayne Shorter -Juju

55.BST 84183 Grant Green -Talkin' About!

56.BST 84189 Joe Henderson -Inner Urge

57.BST 84193 Art Blakey - Indestructible

58.BST 84204 Dexter Gordon -Gettin' Around

59.BST 84205 Pete LaRoca - Basra

60.BST 84212 Lee Morgan -The Gigolo

61.BST 84187 Larry Young –Into Somethin’

62 BST 84220 Horace Silver -The Cape Verdean Blues

63.BST 84259 Donald Byrd -Blackjack

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I decry the potential degradation of "primary sources" for a few "audiophile" consumers.

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This has nothing to do with Tristano.

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Damn your edit Clifford!

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Sorry dude, I wasn't sure if we were dealing with a tautology of "ideals" or not...

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Steve's response:

The albums are being cut at 45 RPM for maximum quality by Kevin Gray and I. The original Rudy Van Gelder engineered stereophonic session tapes are used when we master these gems. The sound quality is amazing on our test cuts. Like from heaven. First totally uncompressed versions of these jazz classics that I’ve ever heard and trust me, you will be impressed; they sound like no other releases of this music. The sound is lifelike, the horns are in the room with you. Our non-invasive mastering insures the true breath of life on these original session tapes is transferred to the virgin vinyl with absolute authenticity. It is like hearing these BLUE NOTE masterpieces for the first time and that is NO exaggeration. When we heard the first acetate playback from our first mastering session I thought Joe Harley was going to pee in his pants he was so excited. Actually we all were; after 50 years of lackluster and downright bad sounding versions of these albums, hearing the real deal is a humbling experience, even for us hardened music veterans. You will be able to listen to the music exactly like we did when these are ready for sale in a few months.

Even if these are "like hearing these ... for the first time," can it really be such an improvement as to obliterate all previous releases? I find it impossible to believe that a recording like Soul Station will be demonstrably different in a truly significant way. This is aural masturbation for audiophile wankers. Its the worship of sound rather than music.

IMHO, of course, and YMMV.

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I decry the potential degradation of "primary sources" for a few "audiophile" consumers.

What about the potential degradation of "primary sources" when RVG and Ron McMaster are using them for reissues? I've never heard you decry that - but I may have missed it, of course :)

Edited by J.A.W.

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Even if these are "like hearing these ... for the first time," can it really be such an improvement as to obliterate all previous releases? I find it impossible to believe that a recording like Soul Station will be demonstrably different in a truly significant way. This is aural masturbation for audiophile wankers. Its the worship of sound rather than music.

I don't disagree - and at $50 I likely won't be buying these either - but isn't this the same argument made about RVGs vs. TOCJs vs. original CD issues vs. Deep Groove vinyl, etc...? Before CDs came along, I was perfectly happy with my BN cassette tapes too.

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Did my post specify a version?

Why are you dogging me Hans?

Back to the question on point. 45 rpm versions are for the audio fringe and I have a problem with people working with these tapes to cash in on these folks.

Preservation of primary sources is really important to me. I hate the "bit by bit" reissues.

I love the music recorded on these tapes and hate the possible degradation of them no-matter the culprit.

I suggest you go back to searching for 16 bit Japanese versions from 4 passes earlier.

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