New Blue Note 45rpm sets

[J.A.W.]

Why are you dogging me Hans?

I'm not dogging you. If I were, I'd be posting a lot more

Anyway, that doesn't belong here in my opinion.

Back to the question on point. 45 rpm versions are for the audio fringe and I have a problem with people working with these tapes to cash in on these folks.

Blame the people who did the hiring, not the people who were hired to work with these tapes.

You've got a point, though.

I don't like this kind of elitist approach either and I also wish they would make these masterings widely available on CD - the damage to the "primary sources" has already been done, so why not give more people the opportunity to hear the results.

I suggest you go back to searching for 16 bit Japanese versions from 4 passes earlier.

What's that supposed to mean?

Edited September 13, 2007 by J.A.W.

[street singer]

Looks like another Blue Note 45RPM series just announced... This one by Analogue Productions.

Analogue Productions Blue Note 45 RPM's

[clifford_thornton]

Chuck's point is right the fuck on.

It gives serious justification, beyond the fact that these things just ooze ridiculousness, to why this whole thing is pointless (beyond the cash-in, of course).

[Parkertown]

So, what should they be saving these tapes for?

[Teasing the Korean]

So, what should they be saving these tapes for?

Definitely not for feeding into the psychological disorders of a few vinyl junkies with expendable incomes.

[RDK]

So, what should they be saving these tapes for?

Definitely not for feeding into the psychological disorders of a few vinyl junkies with expendable incomes.

But I suppose feeding the upgrade obsession for CD junkies is okay?

[clifford_thornton]

So, what should they be saving these tapes for?

It's called "archiving."

The current commercial CD issues could remain in print, right?

If you want vinyl, buy Classics or buy used.

[Teasing the Korean]

Did RVG make safety copies of the masters around the time of the original recordings? If so, the safety copies are probably in better shape than the masters by now.

[Christiern]

Is this project a slap in the face of St. Rudy?

[Parkertown]

So, what should they be saving these tapes for?

It's called "archiving."

The current commercial CD issues could remain in print, right?

If you want vinyl, buy Classics or buy used.

So it's okay for Rudy or Classic Recs (Bernie G.) to use them, but not these guys?

Say...you're not biased, are you?

You haven't even heard 'em yet...

Do you buy the Classic Recs reissues? (My money says you don't)

Please help me understand your logic...

[porcy62]

So, what should they be saving these tapes for?

It's called "archiving."

The current commercial CD issues could remain in print, right?

If you want vinyl, buy Classics or buy used.

So it's okay for Rudy or Classic Recs (Bernie G.) to use them, but not these guys?

Say...you're not biased, are you?

You haven't even heard 'em yet...

Do you buy the Classic Recs reissues? (My money says you don't)

Please help me understand your logic...

I am not Clifford, but I would like to add my thoughts.

I believe the main logic under all this is "MONEY". Since there are people out there ready to buy everything that contains "From Original Master Tapes" written on the box, the big musical corporates are happy to lend the masters to everybody, their goal is to make money and make happy their stockholders, period.

It doesn't matter if we are talking about Vinyl, RVG remastered, JRVG or SACD.

There is a market for the "ultimate sound form THE ORIGINAL MASTER TAPES" so they provide the products.

Regarding "Archiving", I agree with Clifford and Chuck, BUT if you consider the Master Tapes as Cultural Heritage, like paintings, you should totally shift from a commercial point of view to a higher level of cultural consciousness, so you should have different laws, in this case we wouldn't talk about EMI, but EMI Foundation for Preserving Jazz Music.

The shift would mean that historical recordings should be treated like a Picasso: different taxes, cd cheaper for students, maybe some goverment's financing, ecc., and different laws about copyrights. I think we are not ready for it, nor corporates, nor customers...maybe only Chuck , surely not the today's music market.

The latest RIAA report shows how much money the labels are loosing, illegal downloading sure, but also a general loosening of interest about music, due to the increasing of other forms of entertainments, like videogames, home cinema, ecc.. So every way to make money, even for a niche market, with minimum cost, (they already have the tapes, they haven't got to produce new music or promote new artists), is OK for RIAA and the guys with the big cigar in the biggest offices of Sony Entertainments.

Obviously Hoffman, Grundman and Rudy may have more honourable reason then money...you know "For Brutus is an honourable man; So are they all, all honourable men"

Edited September 13, 2007 by porcy62

[Parkertown]

I agree that these "works of art" should be preserved. What would you guys propose as far as "archiving"; how should it be done?

[porcy62]

I agree that these "works of art" should be preserved. What would you guys propose as far as "archiving"; how should it be done?

Personally I don't know, ask to Chuck for it, but don't use the word "copyrights" in the question.

Seriously, we'd need specific laws for it and, for what I understand about law, (the few I learned watching "legal thriller" at TV), these laws could be in contrast with private properties (aka copyrights). Not easy to preserve "works of art". Actually a very rich nut could buy a Picasso and burn it in his fireplace, is there any law against it?

Edited September 13, 2007 by porcy62

[RDK]

I agree that these "works of art" should be preserved. What would you guys propose as far as "archiving"; how should it be done?

One could make the argument that producing a high quality, "purest sound possible" reissue in the vinyl format will do more to preserve the sound of the original tapes than it would be to lock up the tapes in Iron Mountain. The tapes deteriorate - both from use and non-use - and the CDs that have been made from them in the past haven't always sounded that good. What's closer to the spirit of Rudy's original tapes: an eq-tweaked and narrowed stereo spread RVG CD or an LP made with minimal tweaking and full stereo spread? There's also the issue that vinyl may have a longer "shelf life" than CDs - though obviously more time is needed to prove that in real world conditions.

Or would we rather have these artistic treasures "archived" only in the digital medium? Damn, now where did I put those old 5" floppy discs?

[ejp626]

I agree that these "works of art" should be preserved. What would you guys propose as far as "archiving"; how should it be done?

One could make the argument that producing a high quality, "purest sound possible" reissue in the vinyl format will do more to preserve the sound of the original tapes than it would be to lock up the tapes in Iron Mountain. The tapes deteriorate - both from use and non-use - and the CDs that have been made from them in the past haven't always sounded that good. What's closer to the spirit of Rudy's original tapes: an eq-tweaked and narrowed stereo spread RVG CD or an LP made with minimal tweaking and full stereo spread? There's also the issue that vinyl may have a longer "shelf life" than CDs - though obviously more time is needed to prove that in real world conditions.

Or would we rather have these artistic treasures "archived" only in the digital medium? Damn, now where did I put those old 5" floppy discs?

And yet using the tapes to make 1000 copies of a product that is priced to keep all but the most serious collectors away seems the worst of both worlds. To me, this is just a vanity product and thus criticism of the use of the tapes for its creation is perfectly valid and indeed well-justified.

[porcy62]

I agree that these "works of art" should be preserved. What would you guys propose as far as "archiving"; how should it be done?

One could make the argument that producing a high quality, "purest sound possible" reissue in the vinyl format will do more to preserve the sound of the original tapes than it would be to lock up the tapes in Iron Mountain. The tapes deteriorate - both from use and non-use - and the CDs that have been made from them in the past haven't always sounded that good. What's closer to the spirit of Rudy's original tapes: an eq-tweaked and narrowed stereo spread RVG CD or an LP made with minimal tweaking and full stereo spread? There's also the issue that vinyl may have a longer "shelf life" than CDs - though obviously more time is needed to prove that in real world conditions.

Or would we rather have these artistic treasures "archived" only in the digital medium? Damn, now where did I put those old 5" floppy discs?

Good points. There isn't a definitive answear to all the issues raised in this thread. Even if we consider master tapes "works of art", what's the best way to preserve them? Not even the "experts" agree about it. My analogy with paintings missed the target in this point.

[six string]

I agree that these "works of art" should be preserved. What would you guys propose as far as "archiving"; how should it be done?

One could make the argument that producing a high quality, "purest sound possible" reissue in the vinyl format will do more to preserve the sound of the original tapes than it would be to lock up the tapes in Iron Mountain. The tapes deteriorate - both from use and non-use - and the CDs that have been made from them in the past haven't always sounded that good. What's closer to the spirit of Rudy's original tapes: an eq-tweaked and narrowed stereo spread RVG CD or an LP made with minimal tweaking and full stereo spread? There's also the issue that vinyl may have a longer "shelf life" than CDs - though obviously more time is needed to prove that in real world conditions.

Or would we rather have these artistic treasures "archived" only in the digital medium? Damn, now where did I put those old 5" floppy discs?

And yet using the tapes to make 1000 copies of a product that is priced to keep all but the most serious collectors away seems the worst of both worlds. To me, this is just a vanity product and thus criticism of the use of the tapes for its creation is perfectly valid and indeed well-justified.

These are all good points. The only thing I have to say about the last one is that you should have put the word wealthy in front of serious collectors. I consider myself a pretty serious collector, but I don't have the deep pockets or the obsession to divert my money from other needs in my life to spend on these 45 RPM reissues, not to mention even more money on some of these in their original releases. Although I like good sound, the music on the Bluenote label is such a joyous sound to me that to sit and analyze the mastering and engineering while I'm listening seems antithetical to the reason it was created.

[RDK]

I agree that these "works of art" should be preserved. What would you guys propose as far as "archiving"; how should it be done?

One could make the argument that producing a high quality, "purest sound possible" reissue in the vinyl format will do more to preserve the sound of the original tapes than it would be to lock up the tapes in Iron Mountain. The tapes deteriorate - both from use and non-use - and the CDs that have been made from them in the past haven't always sounded that good. What's closer to the spirit of Rudy's original tapes: an eq-tweaked and narrowed stereo spread RVG CD or an LP made with minimal tweaking and full stereo spread? There's also the issue that vinyl may have a longer "shelf life" than CDs - though obviously more time is needed to prove that in real world conditions.

Or would we rather have these artistic treasures "archived" only in the digital medium? Damn, now where did I put those old 5" floppy discs?

And yet using the tapes to make 1000 copies of a product that is priced to keep all but the most serious collectors away seems the worst of both worlds. To me, this is just a vanity product and thus criticism of the use of the tapes for its creation is perfectly valid and indeed well-justified.

These are all good points. The only thing I have to say about the last one is that you should have put the word wealthy in front of serious collectors. I consider myself a pretty serious collector, but I don't have the deep pockets or the obsession to divert my money from other needs in my life to spend on these 45 RPM reissues, not to mention even more money on some of these in their original releases. Although I like good sound, the music on the Bluenote label is such a joyous sound to me that to sit and analyze the mastering and engineering while I'm listening seems antithetical to the reason it was created.

I agree. That's my biggest problem with these reissues: they're too damn expensive. I don't like to double dip on music I already own, I'm not too keen on flipping the LP every 10 minutes, and I'd rather put my $50 towards new and unheard music.

btw, the press run on these will be 2500 copies and not 1000. Doubt that will alter anyone's opinion though.

[porcy62]

From a newsletter I got from Acoustic Sounds, the reissues series will be two.

http://store.acousticsounds.com/whatsnew.cfm

Same Hoffmann/Grey 45rpm double LP.

One from Music Matters, one from Acoustic Sounds. The thing is getting bigger.

Edited September 13, 2007 by porcy62

[Teasing the Korean]

And yet using the tapes to make 1000 copies of a product that is priced to keep all but the most serious collectors away seems the worst of both worlds. To me, this is just a vanity product and thus criticism of the use of the tapes for its creation is perfectly valid and indeed well-justified.

[clifford_thornton]

Original masters should be preserved and not re-used. They are cultural heritage, indeed. Duplicates are for re-pressing the recordings; Chuck would know more about this.

But I will say this: If you're going to spend the "big bucks," buy an original, a decent Liberty or a nice King pressing. I don't know what the "ideal" sound is on these Hoffman things is anyway, and nor do I care. I am a follower of music, not stereo test situations. This whole thing is niche marketing bullshit, designed to re-sell the same titles over again to people who don't know or don't care about what's actually "out there" to listen to. I'd buy five new CDs on Ecstatic Peace before I'd buy a Hoffman reissue, and two Maria Schneider records before one Classics reissue.

[RDK]

Original masters should be preserved and not re-used. They are cultural heritage, indeed. Duplicates are for re-pressing the recordings; Chuck would know more about this.

So you purposely want subpar tapes used for CD and LP reissues?

But I will say this: If you're going to spend the "big bucks," buy an original, a decent Liberty or a nice King pressing. I don't know what the "ideal" sound is on these Hoffman things is anyway, and nor do I care. I am a follower of music, not stereo test situations.

Christ, not that straw man again! I'm sure you've held on to all your old cassette tapes and have never upgraded for sound considerations?

This whole thing is niche marketing bullshit, designed to re-sell the same titles over again to people who don't know or don't care about what's actually "out there" to listen to.

Welcome to the music business in general.

I'd buy five new CDs on Ecstatic Peace before I'd buy a Hoffman reissue, and two Maria Schneider records before one Classics reissue. I'm not one to spend $50 on any album (LP or CD), but I'm also not willing to tell anyone what they should or should not buy for whatever reasons they choose. I will say that, of the few OJC 45s that I've heard, I haven't heard any finer reproduction of the music on any format.

[porcy62]

... I'd buy five new CDs on Ecstatic Peace before I'd buy a Hoffman reissue, and two Maria Schneider records before one Classics reissue.

What wrong with Maria Schneider? Didn't you like "LAST TANGO IN PARIS"?

[Parkertown]

Man...there's no pleasing some people...

This is the toughest board on the internet. Fucking brutal...

[Teasing the Korean]

I think this thread has remained very civil, considering the divide between the two camps. I've seen worse on other message boards.