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Prayers for George Cables, Please


ValerieB

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If George wanted people to pray for him, and asked for them, why can't that be respected? If it gives him comfort, that's a good thing.

Why make an issue in this thread about whether prayers will "realistically" do it or not? Why do people have to draw attention to theirselves by offering up their opinion on religion, instead of just wishing Mr. Cables well and leaving it at that?

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If George wanted people to pray for him, and asked for them, why can't that be respected? If it gives him comfort, that's a good thing.

Why make an issue in this thread about whether prayers will "realistically" do it or not? Why do people have to draw attention to theirselves by offering up their opinion on religion, instead of just wishing Mr. Cables well and leaving it at that?

Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Let me just say that I wish Mr Cables all the best and a speedy recovery.

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Chris, what you actually said was "Realistically, prayer won't do it" - meaning, pray all you want, it can't have any effect on George's health. Not only does it denigrate the beliefs of some people, but Evan's article suggests that, your atheism aside, there are measurable health benefits to spiritual "assistance".

Regardless, all that needed to be said is the latter half of your post:

"I hope George is getting the best of care and that he regains his health."

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

Let me just say that I wish Mr Cables all the best and a speedy recovery.

Seconded.

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

I got the impression from the first post that it was just Valerie asking for prayers, not Mr Cables.

Anyway, I still think religion shouldn't be brought into threads like this.

Edited by J.A.W.
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I also gathered from the first post that Valerie wasn't passing on George's request. She could/should have given her own prayer off-line and told us of George's situation. I am sure that no more was needed, most--if not all--of us would not need a prompt to send a prayer or good wished George's way.

I agree with J.A.W., religion ought not to have been brought into this, but it is something Valerie often does--meaning well.

Dan, I also agree that praying can work, but it is a psychological healing that affects the person engaged in the prayer rather than the recipient, who usually is unaware of the effort. Thus, prayer often becomes a gesture or a self-satisfying feel-good thing. Doctors and good medical care is what really heals, and the knowledge that he/she has support (spiritual or otherwise) can psychologically speed up the process. You may hope that people pray, Valerie, but I would think that to instruct them to do so defeats the purpose.

Edited by Christiern
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Correspondence

The MANTRA II study

Richard P Sloan and Rajasekhar Ramakrishnan

The almost uniformly negative findings from the MANTRA II study, reported by Mitchell Krucoff and colleagues,1 are far less surprising than the emphasis of the report and accompanying Editorial.2 In MANTRA II, 748 patients with coronary artery disease undergoing percutaneous coronary intervention or elective catheterisation were randomly assigned distant intercessory prayer (IP); combined music, imagery, and touch (MIT) therapy; IP plus MIT; or standard care.

Despite the entirely negative findings for the IP intervention, both the paper and Editorial enthusiastically speculate about prayer to the virtual exclusion of an examination of the one promising outcome: the reduced rate of mortality in the MIT group at 6-month follow-up. Although this finding—the only one among a great many comparisons to achieve significance—is likely to be due to chance, it still could be explored. But almost all of the discussion section of the paper is about distant prayer.

This is all the more surprising because no biologically plausible mechanism exists for distant prayer, from intercessors around the world and at substantial distances from the patients, whereas a plausible mechanism might be advanced for MIT treatment delivered at the bedside. Indeed, some studies have suggested that interventions that promote arousal reduction3 or distraction4 can have physiological effects. However, nothing in our contemporary scientific views of the universe or consciousness can account for how the “healing intentions” or prayers of distant intercessors could possibly influence the wellbeing of patients even nearby let alone at a great distance. These differences indicate the inappropriateness of conflating prayer and MIT.

Krucoff and colleagues and The Lancet question whether the prayers of different religious denominations might have different, and superior, effects. It is hard to imagine a more troubling recommendation. Even if there were a plausible mechanism to account for possible effects of distant prayer, do we really want to test denominational differences in its efficacy? Theological critics of this kind of research have for years objected to putting God to the test.5 In a world riven with fundamentalist religious strife, attempting to show the superiority of one form of prayer over another is not only offensive but dangerous.

The Editorial concludes that “the contribution that hope and belief make to a personal understanding of illness cannot be dismissed so lightly”. That might be so, but it was distant prayer and alternative therapies, not hope and belief, that were tested in MANTRA II, and they were shown quite conclusively to be ineffective. Hope might be the thing with feathers, as Emily Dickinson wrote, but distant prayer still can't fly.

We declare that we have no conflict of interest.

References

1. Krucoff MW, Crater SW, Gallup D, et al. Music, imagery, touch, and prayer as adjuncts to interventional cardiac care: the Monitoring and Actualisation of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II randomised study. Lancet 2005; 366: 211-217. Abstract | Full Text | Full-Text PDF (101 KB) | CrossRef

2. The Lancet. Mantra II: measuring the unmeasurable?. Lancet 2005; 366: 178. Full Text | Full-Text PDF (27 KB) | CrossRef

3. Davidson RJ, Kabat-Zinn J, Schumacher J, et al. Alterations in brain and immune function produced by mindfulness meditation. Psychosom Med 2003; 65: 564-570. CrossRef

4. Neumann SA, Waldstein SR, Sellers JJ 3rd, Thayer JF, Sorkin JD. Hostility and distraction have differential influences on cardiovascular recovery from anger recall in women. Health Psychol 2004; 23: 631-640. MEDLINE | CrossRef

5. Cohen CB, Wheeler SE, Scott DA, Edwards BS, Lusk P. Anglican Working Group in Bioethics. Prayer as therapy: a challenge to both religious belief and professional ethics. Hastings Center Rep 2000; 30: 40-47.

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

I got the impression from the first post that it was just Valerie asking for prayers, not Mr Cables.

Anyway, I still think religion shouldn't be brought into threads like this.

So when is an appropriate time? When the guy is dead, or never?

If someone on this board started a thread asking for well wishes and a couple of members posted something like "I'll say a prayer for you" would you get all bent out of shape?

What difference does it make how a person chooses or requests an expression of support and care?

It isn't as if Valerie requested a specific prayer and said you must do it. Was it really necessary to point out that the prayers won't do shit?

Fuck me, this place can be a real pisser at times.

Too many uptight psuedo-intellects.

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

I got the impression from the first post that it was just Valerie asking for prayers, not Mr Cables.

Anyway, I still think religion shouldn't be brought into threads like this.

So when is an appropriate time? When the guy is dead, or never?

If someone on this board started a thread asking for well wishes and a couple of members posted something like "I'll say a prayer for you" would you get all bent out of shape?

What difference does it make how a person chooses or requests an expression of support and care?

It isn't as if Valerie requested a specific prayer and said you must do it. Was it really necessary to point out that the prayers won't do shit?

Fuck me, this place can be a real pisser at times.

Too many uptight psuedo-intellects.

I'm just saying that in my opinion religion should be kept out of this. There's a difference between asking for support and care, and asking for religious acts. For some people it might be the same, for others it certainly isn't.

By the way, I didn't point out that "that the prayers won't do shit".

Edited by J.A.W.
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oh, my goodness, what a mess!! i certainly didn't "instruct" anyone to do anything. i was simply requesting "prayers" and to me that means positive thoughts in whatever way the individual imparts them. in fact, i pray and chant and think positive thoughts, etc. and this request of mine came from me and no one else. thanks, guys.

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Go George Go! :)

I haven't heard much of his work with Pepper, and I have not yet connected with Cables Vision. For me, it's Frank Morgan's Mood Indigo (Antilles 1989) which I guess got mixed reviews (Frank plays too slow, Wynton is on a few cuts, boring, etc.). I don't listen to it that often now, but it was a recording (of standards) that re-energized what was then only a passing curiosity I had in jazz. Frank's story of return may have also played a role. A very subdued album, it begins and ends with a beautiful short theme "Lullaby" composed by George. Very moving. I will spin it later tonight.

Continue on, George!

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

I got the impression from the first post that it was just Valerie asking for prayers, not Mr Cables.

Anyway, I still think religion shouldn't be brought into threads like this.

So when is an appropriate time? When the guy is dead, or never?

If someone on this board started a thread asking for well wishes and a couple of members posted something like "I'll say a prayer for you" would you get all bent out of shape?

What difference does it make how a person chooses or requests an expression of support and care?

It isn't as if Valerie requested a specific prayer and said you must do it. Was it really necessary to point out that the prayers won't do shit?

Fuck me, this place can be a real pisser at times.

Too many uptight psuedo-intellects.

I'm just saying that in my opinion religion should be kept out of this. There's a difference between asking for support and care, and asking for religious acts. For some people it might be the same, for others it certainly isn't.

By the way, I didn't point out that "that the prayers won't do shit".

If you don't like requests for prayers, then just walk away. Better yet, don't click on the thread.

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

I got the impression from the first post that it was just Valerie asking for prayers, not Mr Cables.

Anyway, I still think religion shouldn't be brought into threads like this.

So when is an appropriate time? When the guy is dead, or never?

If someone on this board started a thread asking for well wishes and a couple of members posted something like "I'll say a prayer for you" would you get all bent out of shape?

What difference does it make how a person chooses or requests an expression of support and care?

It isn't as if Valerie requested a specific prayer and said you must do it. Was it really necessary to point out that the prayers won't do shit?

Fuck me, this place can be a real pisser at times.

Too many uptight psuedo-intellects.

I'm just saying that in my opinion religion should be kept out of this. There's a difference between asking for support and care, and asking for religious acts. For some people it might be the same, for others it certainly isn't.

By the way, I didn't point out that "that the prayers won't do shit".

Hans, I was not trying to single you out or imply you said something you did not.

Look, those that voiced an opposition to the prayer reference in this thread are certainly entitled to their opinion.

I guess I am more of a pick your battles type person, it seemed hardly worth the effort to make it a point.

Obviously Valerie started this thread with the best intentions, why make an issue out of the title and not just stick to the idea of well wishes?If this was a thread about saying prayers and only prayers, there would be cause to speak out.

I just did not see the need for it to be pointed out that a prayer will not help. And that is not a personal dig at Chris.

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

I got the impression from the first post that it was just Valerie asking for prayers, not Mr Cables.

Anyway, I still think religion shouldn't be brought into threads like this.

So when is an appropriate time? When the guy is dead, or never?

If someone on this board started a thread asking for well wishes and a couple of members posted something like "I'll say a prayer for you" would you get all bent out of shape?

What difference does it make how a person chooses or requests an expression of support and care?

It isn't as if Valerie requested a specific prayer and said you must do it. Was it really necessary to point out that the prayers won't do shit?

Fuck me, this place can be a real pisser at times.

Too many uptight psuedo-intellects.

Couldn't agree more, Chris.

That said, can we please move the prayer debate to another thread?

Let's keep this one for the best wishes (or whatever one wants to call it) in regards Mr. Cables' health.

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

I got the impression from the first post that it was just Valerie asking for prayers, not Mr Cables.

Anyway, I still think religion shouldn't be brought into threads like this.

So when is an appropriate time? When the guy is dead, or never?

If someone on this board started a thread asking for well wishes and a couple of members posted something like "I'll say a prayer for you" would you get all bent out of shape?

What difference does it make how a person chooses or requests an expression of support and care?

It isn't as if Valerie requested a specific prayer and said you must do it. Was it really necessary to point out that the prayers won't do shit?

Fuck me, this place can be a real pisser at times.

Too many uptight psuedo-intellects.

Couldn't agree more, Chris.

That said, can we please move the prayer debate to another thread?

Let's keep this one for the best wishes (or whatever one wants to call it) in regards Mr. Cables' health.

I agree.

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Why bring religion into this in the first place like was done in the first post? That's what started all this.

Hans - I'm assuming George Cables wants people's prayers, based on Valerie's asking for them. If it is something that gives him comfort or hope, that's his choice.

I got the impression from the first post that it was just Valerie asking for prayers, not Mr Cables.

Anyway, I still think religion shouldn't be brought into threads like this.

So when is an appropriate time? When the guy is dead, or never?

If someone on this board started a thread asking for well wishes and a couple of members posted something like "I'll say a prayer for you" would you get all bent out of shape?

What difference does it make how a person chooses or requests an expression of support and care?

It isn't as if Valerie requested a specific prayer and said you must do it. Was it really necessary to point out that the prayers won't do shit?

Fuck me, this place can be a real pisser at times.

Too many uptight psuedo-intellects.

Couldn't agree more, Chris.

That said, can we please move the prayer debate to another thread?

Let's keep this one for the best wishes (or whatever one wants to call it) in regards Mr. Cables' health.

Yeah, I hear you. It really derailed this thread in a bad way.

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Chris, what you actually said was "Realistically, prayer won't do it" - meaning, pray all you want, it can't have any effect on George's health. Not only does it denigrate the beliefs of some people, but Evan's article suggests that, your atheism aside, there are measurable health benefits to spiritual "assistance".

Regardless, all that needed to be said is the latter half of your post:

"I hope George is getting the best of care and that he regains his health."

...although I never agree with Dan :cool: , I'm in total agreement here!

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I agreed with Valerie's sentiment but not the proposed methodology. If ever I find myself in a precarious health situation, I hope my friends who wish me well, literally, will take action beyond reciting some religious text. Sorry, but I am a realist. That is all I will add here, except to say that some of the most caring people in this world don't need manuals from organized religion to do good deeds. Conversely, many who resort to religion publicly do so for all the wrong reasons. Am I cynical? You bet, but I also respect those who do believe in deities--if they really[/] believe. I think Valerie really believes and she had only good intentions. I am not outraged by people whose beliefs are contrary to mine, so I had hoped that I could express myself without people climbing the wall and generally over-reacting.

Had Valerie not brought religion into her initial request, my response would have been to simply express my strong feelings that George overcomes this obstacle and regains his health.

Is there a full moon?

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oh, my goodness, what a mess!! i certainly didn't "instruct" anyone to do anything. i was simply requesting "prayers" and to me that means positive thoughts in whatever way the individual imparts them. in fact, i pray and chant and think positive thoughts, etc. and this request of mine came from me and no one else. thanks, guys.

Don't feel bad; it's always the few people who feel the need to jump in a thread such as this and voice their opinion on prayer/religion. I would guess most people either agree with you, or they don't let the word "prayer" get under their skin as much as Chris or Hans do.

Personally, I'm glad you started this thread. It's always fun to watch over-zealous atheists in action. ;)

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Had Valerie not brought religion into her initial request, my response would have been to simply express my strong feelings that George overcomes this obstacle and regains his health.

Y'know, Chris, you could've done that regardless, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

[second paragraph deleted. Thoughtless sarcasm. I apologize.]

Edited by Big Al
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