jon abbey Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 such a dull game for me to play, but I'll answer once. yikes, don't know where to start on this - Julius, for one, and his development of the horn quartet and sextet never liked the WSQ, such a narrow palette. I wish Hemphill had really explored the "Hard Blues" more in depth, I don't think he ever did (and I have/had virtually all his records as a leader). Zorn for obvious reasons (Spillane and Morricone discs in particualr, also Naked City) none of these are jazz or even close. Tim Berne, completely unqique compositional style and method of organizing it completely stolen from Hemphill and dull as fuck, every piece winds around for 30 minutes and goes nowhere. even when I was a massive jazz fan, Berne bored me. though you may prefer Mazzacane, who I like personally, but, damn, is really an amateur - this is part of the problem with our discussion, I could give a shit about Loren's technical ability, but at his best, he was one of the last real bluesmen, albeit from Connecticut/NYC. I'm not looking for my mind to be changed on this, I'm pretty comfortable in my position and have plenty of new and exciting music to listen to. if you think I'm dead wrong, cool, more power to you, but it's a very narrow perspective IMO. I think pretty much everyone here would agree that Dixieland is a historical style of music, whether or not there are people performing it well still today. for me, all of jazz fits this definition and has for decades (I like to use 1975 and Agharta/Pangaea as the cutoff point for neatness' sake, but there were a few trickles after that, mostly from AACM-related people). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
catesta Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 such a dull game for me to play, but I'll answer once. My, how fortunate for us you decided to play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 such a dull game for me to play, but I'll answer once. My, how fortunate for us you decided to play. my pleasure! enjoy the Blue Series! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) "but at his best, he was one of the last real bluesmen, albeit from Connecticut/NYC." don't want to get into the insult game, guys, we can discuss this in a semi-adult way (at least that's how my wife considers me) - I usually avoid posting about people I know, always afraid they'll see it if it's critical, but I doubt Loren Mazzacane hangs out here, so - to me, he's part of the problem with a lot of the music you admire and/or produce - I've gone on about this before, but this all to me represents a new kind of formalism, a misguided belief by musicans that just because they have found a new gesture, or at least one that they think sounds new, that they have nade a signifdcant formal discovery - and than they drive it into the ground. A good idea is not necessarily a good organizing principle, or a way of life and music, and this is the problem with a lot of drone stuff, noise stuff, electro-acoustical. And that's Mazzacane - he came up with a very interesting idea for sound and basic phrase organization - and has been doing the same thing for 30 years (I first heard him in the late 1970s in New Haven) - it's a perversion of Cage I think (or maybe not) - and a persistent problem in the field. Listening to these guys being praised reminds me of all the cinema majors I listened to in the 1960s and 1970s - all they talked about was some "amazing" camera angle, an incredible splash of color, or the subtextual rhythm of a scene in some worthless Bertolucci movie - but there was more to Goddard and Antonioni and Bresson than, and there is more to new music now - it's the difference between an idea and a gimmick, mannerism and style - of course I won't make the same mistake you make, and generalize about it, call it "dead" or stagnant - I'm always listening and there is a lot of fresh stuff coming out. It just needs more brains and discipline. Time will tell - Edited October 11, 2007 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 don't want to get into the insult game, guys, we can discuss this in a semi-adult way (at least that's how my wife considers me) I agree that this particular topic becomes pointless once it degenerates into insults, I'm only trying to give my perspective here. in the circles that I travel, jazz being a historical genre is as common sense and underlying an assumption as Bush being a war criminal. it's so obvious that people don't bother talking about it anymore. I usually avoid posting about people I know, always afraid they'll see it if it's critical, but I doubt Loren Mazzacane hangs out here, so - to me, he's part of the problem with a lot of the music you admire and/or produce - I've gone on about this before, but this all to me represents a new kind of formalism, a misguided belief by musicans that just because they have found a new gesture, or at least one that they think sounds new, that they have nade a signifdcant formal discovery - and than they drive it into the ground. A good idea is not necessarily a good organizing principle, or a way of life and music, and this is the problem with a lot of drone stuff, noise stuff, electro-acoustical. And that's Mazzacane - he came up with a very interesting idea for sound and basic phrase organization - and has been doing the same thing for 30 years (I first heard him in the late 1970s in New Haven) - it's a perversion of Cage I think (or maybe not) - and a persistent problem in the field. using Loren as an example of the music I work with is a bad mistake to begin with. I did produce a record of his in 1999, and I am a big fan of his, but virtually all of what I've done since then is in a different area. Loren is closer to Jandek than he is to Erstwhile or electroacoustic improv. I don't have much interest in defending Loren's work, I think that's just a matter of taste and I can certainly see how people would not be into it. I will defend today's electroacoustic improv, obviously. Listening to these guys being praised reminds me of all the cinema majors I listened to in the 1960s and 1970s - all they talked about was some "amazing" camera angle, an incredible splash of color, or the subtextual rhythm of a scene in some worthless Bertolucci movie - but there was more to Godard and Antonioni and Bresson than, and there is more to new music now - jumping disciplines just confuses things, but one major error here is that you could make a strong case that the directors of the sixties overshadow all that have come since (although I'd take Lynch, Haneke, Tarr over Antonioni in a second, but again, a different discussion). electroacoustic music, on the other hand, has become far more sophisticated in the last decade, and (IMO) virtually nothing from the earlier electroacoustic composers holds up when played in close juxtaposition (some Xenakis, some Stockhausen, Ashley's Automatic Writing, a handful of others). people who feel that today's EAI is a pale imitation of older electroacoustic music either 1) are going by live performances they saw at the time that were never documented or 2) simply not listening. I've done a couple of eight hour DJ sets in the Experimental Intermedia festival, and for the first one, I tried to include as much historic material as I could, but almost all of it paled in direct comparison, either clunky and academic or rough and unpolished. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 thanks, Jon - is there a site where one good hear decent examples of the music you are talking about? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted October 11, 2007 Report Share Posted October 11, 2007 (edited) thanks, Jon - is there a site where one good hear decent examples of the music you are talking about? I have short sound clips of all of my titles on my site under the individual title, but it tends to be music that works at length and on repeated listens, as you figure out the unique language of that particular project. I'd recommend just picking up a few CDs and spending some time with them when you're in the mood. if you e-mail me, I'll give you a good deal on a starter kit of maybe three discs, or you could go to the Funny Rat thread here and ask them for suggestions. edit: electroacoustic music is more impacted by lossy formats like MP3s than most other kinds of music (classical also), because of the dynamic range, so sometimes even full-length DLs sound decidedly different from the original CD. Edited October 11, 2007 by jon abbey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 the current issue of StN is up on the web in PDF format for a week, as a test: http://www.zshare.net/download/41730039af6835/ http://www.zshare.net/download/41733586224c80/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Barton Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 the current issue of StN is up on the web in PDF format for a week, as a test: http://www.zshare.net/download/41730039af6835/ http://www.zshare.net/download/41733586224c80/ To follow up on this, here's the message Pete asked me to forward to the board: __________________________________________________________________ First, I wanted to thank the members of Organissimo for your interest in the magazine (where applicable) and in creative music. The discussion about what we do at STN is a little harsher than I would have expected, but fans of challenging music are an opinionated bunch, and trash talking is what Internet message boards are made for. I know Clem has been a longtime skeptic of our efforts, going back several years, so I am especially grateful to him for actually going out and buying a copy despite all that. Publishing this magazine is extremely expensive (paying the printing bill is the financial equivalent of buying a fancy car every three months) so every little bit helps. STN is not a corporate enterprise. It's not even a cottage industry. It's more like one stubborn schmuck's crazy, quixotic hobby (I can just hear Clem now... "And it shows! And you smell bad, you stupid Gershon!). These days about 90 percent of my time is spent raising my two-year-old and four-month-old while my wife's at work (no, she's not a proofreader, har har, she's a therapist who works with abused kids, so better for her to be out of the house taking care of business than me). In the couple of hours a day I have to work on the magazine, I am doing all of the editing, layout, marketing, ad sales, and subscription fulfillment. Any of these functions by themselves could be a full-time job, so sure, I'll admit it, I'm something of a jack-of-all-trades, and a master of none. I understand there are light years' worth of room for improvement, and I am at least glad to be improving "at a glacial pace" than burning out altogether. I really value criticism, so if anyone wants to get in touch with me with specific comments, I would welcome that (although there's not much I can do with a statement like "your magazine sucks because it's boring"). In fact, if any of you want to roll up your sleeves and contribute some reviews and help raise the quality of the magazine, bring it on (but be forewarned -- we're a volunteer crew). As far as the personal attacks from a guy who's never met me, believe it or not, I am a pretty nice fellow, and not the kind of drooling idiot Clem would have you believe, and if any of y'all ever come through Houston, I would love to meet you and buy you a beer. We can talk about jazz, or weird, oddball music, or music writing, or the best hikes in Vermont, or the movies of the Coen brothers, or Twin Peaks. I know, Clem, I'm probably an idiot for liking Twin Peaks, too. I apologize. All I really want to get across is that I'm proud of my writers and of what we're able to pull off despite limited resources. Most of the feedback I've gotten over the past ten years has been extremely positive. We have been nominated for awards from some organizations I respect, and I have heard from countless people out there who are genuinely enjoying the magazine and who think of it as a valuable resource ... so, mission accomplished. To whomever called us the Ken Vandermark of music magazines, I think in this context it was meant as an insult, but I am taking that as an incredible compliment, because I really dig Ken and his music. But please, judge for yourself. The new issue is available for the next seven days as a free PDF download at the following links: http://www.zshare.net/download/41730039af6835/ http://www.zshare.net/download/41733586224c80/ Please do peruse and I would love to hear from any of you at: editor@signaltonoisemagazine.org Yrs in music!! pete gershon publisher SIGNAL to NOISE the journal of improvised & experimental music 1128 Waverly, Houston TX 77008 www.signaltonoisemagazine.org "Zine of the Year" PLUG Independent Music Awards: 2007 nominee "Best Periodical Covering Jazz" Jazz Journalists Association: 2004, 2005, 2006, 2007 nominee "Best Arts and Creativity Coverage" UTNE Independent Press Awards: 2004 nominee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bill Barton Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 ...the late Andy Shapiro, the most talent synth/jeyboard player I have ever heard (basically undocumented on CD, but just ask anybody in Vermont)... He was indeed an amazing talent, Allen, thanks for reminding folks about him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrrshon Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Well, well ... look what the cat dragged in. It's that simp Pete Gershon, here to spread around some of his trademark "witless arrogance". I already know almost everyone contributing to this thread, since we've met personally at gigs, or because you've been a long-time subscriber, or because we've exchanged e-mail niceties in the past when you've asked for free copies of the magazine or inquired about getting your CDs reviewed, so no need for any detailed introductions. I am still waiting for some specific feedback that I can actually use ("the thing's a fucking disaster" is a smidge broad) ... and I'm serious, I really do want it. You mention Dr. Chadbourne, and in an early issue of STN, he wrote a very long, scathing column in which he picked out about a dozen reviews and pointed out all the errors, cliches and BS ... and he was quite specific, so it was actually helpful (and funny). OK, so you like Toop (I am absolutely certain that guy will not work for no money, but because you asked for him, I will ask), and you like Rafi Zabor (me too, and I have been sending that guy free magazines and fan mail for years w/o response ... and I badly want to put The Bear on a future cover and bring our readers an update). Generally my writing staff is limited to people who seek me out and offer to volunteer some writing, but tell me who you like and I can always ask. Ben Watson used to reliably ruffle some feathers, but then somebody panned his book and I don't think he's talking to me anymore. I like Warburton -- a lot -- but he's semi-retiring from music writing to do more music. I don't know what the complaint could possibly be about recent features by Ed Hazell and Steve Smith, because I thought that was totally great stuff, but then again if you ask some people around here, I'm some kind of moron, so what do I know? As tough as it may be to believe, the material you read in the magazine is (often) fairly heavily edited and there's a lot of stuff that ends up on the cutting room floor. But really, most of my work on the magazine is limited to mundane stuff that nobody else in their right mind would do for free, like selling ads (a total drag), unpacking and rewrapping/re-mailing hundreds of promo CDs, filling subscription orders, keeping the books, and 4x/year laying out the next issue in a marathon three-day whirlwind after everyone's copy and ads show up late but before our pre-booked, non-negotiable print date arrives. Yeah, I will miss some typos, and some reviews that smell funny will sometimes get in there. For the meantime I will take the C minus and enroll for another semester. If y'll become bored with what we're doing, leave it on the shelf for someone else and I promise I will not hold it against you. Or, if y'all think you can raise the level of discourse in the magazine, you are welcome to write some reviews. Clem: "someday he'll bring in a real editor (not a f/t job but someone to solicit & push writers) & he can stick to the publishing side." Dude, you're hired! When do you start? I will pay you in empty jewel cases. I look forward to meeting your motherfuckin' funny Texan friends. I'm still new in town and like most people with small children, I really don't have the luxury of going out and socializing very much. In fact, it's way past my bedtime. Jon Abbey: I totally dug your review of the Sound Observations gigs and enjoyed meeting you there tremendously. I know the people at Rothko appreciated the review, too. Clifford, looking forward to seeing your Sondheim piece. Photo shoot turned out alright. Oh, and Allen Lowe, I have those extra mags that you asked for, packed up and ready to go, but I need your address. Cheers! grrrrrshon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Welcome to Organissimo Pete. Stick around... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Welcome to the board Pete. Don't worry about clementine. He has a sincere problem with self-importance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Yeah, welcome Pete. I sent the Sondheim off to its subject and got a few corrections back so it'll go through one more personal pass and then off to you. Do stick around, as even if the trash-talk runs high, it's a fun place to hang out. And tho Clem and I have had our fair share of differences in the past, he's one of my favorites around here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 This thread is a "fun read" but I keep squirming in my chair. I'm happy ALL posters are here and welcome Pete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 I don't think the writers are really out there, Clem. and give your mom the new UGK, way way better than any Chamillionaire (which you probably know, namechecking Pimp C, but I'll take any chance to alert the masses to these guys). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grrrshon Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Hey people, thanks for the kind (mostly) welcome. Sure, I get plenty of compliments but they really aren't very useful. Here I find a guy who seems ready to give some unvarnished, detailed criticsm, because you have obviously spent some time thinking about this, and have no problem saying what's on your mind. But so far all I've heard are vague generalities and personal insults. I have totally got a thick skin, and I can take it, but I would really like to get some feedback out of this exchange that I can actually do something with. Hey, I would love to have Byron Coley back writing for the magazine again, and I do keep making the invitation. Maybe he thinks its a shitty magazine, too, and is too nice to tell me so. He was certainly wicked friendly the last time I saw him, when he came up to my house in VT to buy the bulk of my LP collection before I left for Texas. Have you read the stuff David Cotner has written for us? I like what he's doing, a lot. I just wish he had the time to do more of it. Now that dude is funny. I take it that you yourself are not volunteering any reviews, but how about a column? I bet that would be some entertaining reading. Clem, if you want your five bucks back, I can totally spare it. Okay, you don't have to solicit writers on my behalf, which is what you said I should find somebody to do, but if you can give me a more specific critique of our efforts I will gladly send you a comp subscription. I know you have been complaining about what we're doing for years, but you keep paying for it, and at the very least if I send it to you for nothing you might feel as though you have got your money's worth. C'mon, man, you brought it up, so help a brother out, here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 excuse me, Jim? Excuse me, "clem". You want to talk about losing money? I lose money on this site every goddamn month (me, trying to support an ill wife, a child, another on the way, and make records, all on an income that you New Yorkers would categorize as "dogshit", with ever decreasing gigs coming in). All so you can hide behind an alias and use the board as your personal blog to lash out at everything that your finely tuned tastes find beneath you. Have you ever contributed a red cent to this board? No. But you sure as hell use it as our own personal vendetta outlet, slinging insults like a belligerent drunk and acting like it's not personal. If this place disappears tomorrow, don't be surprised. I'm getting fed up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7/4 Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 If this place disappears tomorrow, don't be surprised. I'm getting fed up. Please don't do it Jim. I'd contribute, but I'm between jobs as they say right now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 excuse me, Jim? If this place disappears tomorrow, don't be surprised. I'm getting fed up. I'm eager to change your mood, if possible. In any case, a check will be heading your way in a week or so (stupidly ran out of checks last Thursday without having ordered new ones -- they say they're on the way). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Look, I'm not trying to threaten anyone here. I'm just being honest. I have enough stress in my life right now. The Michigan economy is so bad, the gigs have dried up and we're living month to month. Last winter I had to sell one of my Hammonds just to pay the mortgage. This winter is only going to be worse with higher heating costs, higher gas prices, and the new baby coming and I'm just telling you guys; if I have to start nipping expenses, this place will be on the chopping block. I have to be realistic. organissimo is still $2000 in debt from our last CD. This place is $150 a month. That's $1800 a year that could go to paying off that CD debt so we can make another one. We have 20, maybe 30 regular contributors. This place sometimes seems like a playground for a select few. And I'm always wondering whether it would be better career-wise for me to either give it up, give it to someone else, or at the very least change the name so the association with the band isn't there. I really don't need to make enemies in this business; it's hard enough to make it as is. Y'all can hide behind aliases, but I can't. I have nothing against clem, I just don't understand why he has to be a fucking prick all the time. The persona is tired. It's easy to criticize. It's much harder to actually do something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 It's easy to criticize. It's much harder to actually do something. I couldn't agree more, my tag line on the main music site I post on is: 'criticism is always the easiest art'-cornelius cardew what's a shame is that Clem is pretty damn knowledgable and an entertaining writer, so if he just channeled that bile in a bit more constructive manner, he'd be an asset to most publications. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 Don't care where Clem contributes as long as he keeps going on here. He is one of the most interesting (and challenging) contributors to this board. And Jim A. if you need money to keep the Board going, how about starting a thread about it? I'll gladly contribute! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Weil Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 I don't actually believe that Pete is going to produce the sort of mag that I want. I think he has his conception and it's not going to change. But I don't like it. I want to say so. I did. So did Clem. This isn't constructive criticism (which, my God I'd love to give), because I've made that judgement call. Unusually, Pete has been stung into response and we have our little stand-off. I think he is so peeved because he, rightly, senses that (some) people are not going to come over to his side. In real life, it seems like those stand-offs occur somewhat more easily than in Jazz. There's a Kissinger line - something to the effect that the reason debates between academics get so fraught is because they matter so little. I find StN too coffee table. Others don't. Pretty standard aesthetic debate. Simon Weil P.S. I think it would be a pity if Clem was, effectively, censored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 (edited) well, let's start a fund-raising thread for Organissimo - Jim, I know it's tough sometimes to "bite the hand that feeds you," but I think Pete is OK with all the back and forth here, and nobody would hold you personally responsible for opinions expressed on this site by others - I can tell you're having a rough time, but x-ing this site would be self-defeating, throwing out the baby with the bathwater, cutting off your nose - well, you get the idea. I get paid this week and will contribute as I, like some others, have definitely been remiss. I will even pledge a monthly, if that helps (better you than NPR which is in pledge week right now - whoops, don't wanna get you in any trouble there too how about putting together an email list of those of us who pledge, say, $5/$10 a month or every two months, or whatever, and than sending a reminder? and I wouldn't worry, once again, so much about what industry people might see here; I mean, I speak my mind, and I haven't had a gig in three years - Edited October 15, 2007 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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