fkimbrough Posted October 12, 2007 Report Share Posted October 12, 2007 Wasn't this about the Konitz book? It's good - really good. Lee is his opinionated and honest self throughout, and I found it a fascinating read. Playing note to note and endless melody is what it's all about for me, and I was inspired. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted October 14, 2007 Report Share Posted October 14, 2007 Been digging into it slowly. Lee sure is critical, wow; yet what he has to criticize, and how he does it is related with a certain level of respect (Art Pepper, Anthony Braxton) which makes one pay attention to what he has to say as opposed to just getting mad and dismissing it. Makes me sorry I didn't get the Mosaic Kontiz/Marsh set. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted October 15, 2007 Report Share Posted October 15, 2007 I picked up the book at Borders over the weekend. Just started reading it. Looking forward to finding quiet time to spend with the book. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 27, 2007 Report Share Posted October 27, 2007 Christmas came early--both this and the Tristano book showed up in the mail the other day. Have only skimmed the Tristano (which looks to be wonderful), but have been intently reading the Konitz for the past couple of nights. Larry and Lazaro are right on... Konitz is very candid, and (yet?) remarkably likeable (to say nothing of his obvious intelligence). About 30 pages in and really digging the structure of the book as well (the back and forth between LK himself and fellow musicians' comments about him). Can almost guarantee that it will send you periodically to your CD shelves to pull out various Konitz titles (last night it was Paul Motian ON BROADWAY V. III for me, as well as a couple of the Verves, TRANQUILITY and VERY COOL). Love the epigraph, too: That's my way of preparation--to not be prepared. And that takes a lot of preparation! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted October 29, 2007 Report Share Posted October 29, 2007 Yes. Listened to the 1953 "Lover Man" about five times last week, as well as Clare Fischer's arrangement of it, from Clare's self released "Jazz Corps" CD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
relyles Posted October 29, 2007 Report Share Posted October 29, 2007 I am about seventy pages in myself and really feeling the urge to pull out the Mosaic box set. Very good read! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 An excerpt, along with a great photo of LK and Charlie Parker in front of an airplane, here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 great stuff - explains why I am so bored with so much jazz playing - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Englewood Posted October 30, 2007 Report Share Posted October 30, 2007 An excerpt, along with a great photo of LK and Charlie Parker in front of an airplane, here. Thanks for the link ghost of miles, this looks like a great read, I will get this book as soon as I see it, but out of curiosity what does he say about Pepper and Marsh, I would have thought that he rated them both quite highly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quasimado Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) ... this looks like a great read, I will get this book as soon as I see it, but out of curiosity what does he say about Pepper and Marsh, I would have thought that he rated them both quite highly. Lee expresses the highest regard for Marsh's playing. "...the definitive creative player, no theatricality, no showboating, just a true musical improvisor..." He expresses some admiration of Pepper's early playing, but is critical of his later work. Q Edited October 31, 2007 by Quasimado Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff Englewood Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 Lee expresses the highest regard for Marsh's playing. "...the definitive creative player, no theatricality, no showboating, just a true musical improvisor..." He expresses some admiration of Pepper's early playing, but is critical of his later work. Q Thanks Quasimado, that's odd about Pepper because he played with him during Pepper's later years, on the "Hollywood All-Stars" sessions. I always felt 50's Pepper was almost like a Tristano-ite, in the way he approached a few standards he returned too, like "I Can't Believe You're In Love With Me", he does 3 versions that I know of, one with Marsh, the approach is different on all of them, and on the last one on "Intensity" which is my favorite, he is very Marsh like, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 (edited) It was interesting reading what Lee had to say about Art Pepper's comeback period because it was nearly identical to an observation Jsangry had on hearing Art at that time. "Kary's Trance." Mark Gardner writes that it is "Angel Eyes." In the new book, they say "Play, Fiddle, Play." Hoops. Should have used my ears when putting together a set around "Angel Eyes." Though Konitz is often tangential to the tune, he usually offers some clues. Swing and a miss. Edited October 31, 2007 by Lazaro Vega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 It was interesting reading what Lee had to say about Art Pepper's comeback period because it was nearly identical to an observation Jsangry had on hearing Art at that time. Having neither obtained the book (yet...) nor remembering 99% of what I've said, ever, could you be so kind as to tell us what that is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 something about vertical vs horizontal playing, I think - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 funny thing, by the way, about Konitz's comments on Moody - I never thought of Moody as a player who played like he had planned everything in advance - when I last saw him (maybe 1993) he was absolutely brilliant, hot as hell and incredibly inventive. Much as I like the whole Tristano school of players, they can get overly critical of people with different methods and goals - thinking of Tristano's whole id/ego stuff and his idea of eliminating ego in playing - and his famous quote about Sonny Rollins playing with "all emotion and no feeling" - a great line that describes many players, but not Sonny. I also would have liked to have heard Konitz's comments on Bud Powell, whom Tristano admired greatly. as I've mentione before, I spent an afternoon with Tristano, maybe around 1975/76, in an attempt to interview him (and that's a whole other and funny story); he scared me, and had a definite "aura" and incredibly dominating presence. If he'd asked me to drink the cool-aid, I might very well have done so - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 Jim, Page 150. Lee is talking about the influence on Coltrane. Hamilton says, "He changed Art Pepper in mid-career." Lee replies, "That was tragic, that influence, I think." He then talks about the Hollywood Sessions where they appear together saying of Pepper, "Art was not in top form. I was feelling good, but obviously there was trouble there." Then later, "I thought the comeback was a disapointment, from the expressionistic stuff I heard. I remember sitting in the Vanguard with Bob Mover -- a saxophonist who played with Chet Baker a lot -- and we just looked at each other in disbelief, at how ineffective Art was playing with Elvin Jones. " And then notes that Art didn't make a definitive change from his earlier to later music and that his harmonic ability was limited. Which reminded me of a comment you made regarding a re-union of Warne Marsh and Art Pepper which you saw live where Art was struggling to keep up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 31, 2007 Report Share Posted October 31, 2007 Thanks, Laz, but I think there's some confusion here. The Pepper/Marsh disaster I referred to was a bootleg I'd heard. Plus, I've got no more (or less) problems with "post-comeback" Pepper than I do pre. There's "problems" for me there either way, even though I enjoy a lot of all of it in spite of them. And I definitely do dig Pepper w/Elvin on those Vanguard dates! I'm with Allen about the sometimes hyper-criticality of some Tristanoites, Konitz in particular. I've heard (read, actually) him say some pretty...uh... ambivalent things about Warne, things that make me think that this is one of those guys who just can't help but seeing the glass as half-empty, even as he enjoys the drink. Comes with the territory, price of doing business, etc., but I wonder if he ever comments about how when he's not on, it's one of the most boring experiences in music? Just as when he is, its one of the most fascinating? I love the cat, but that's the truth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) Yes, he does. There are places in the book where Hamilton brings up the fact that Lee simply doesn't play, anything, but let's the rhythm section stroll as Konitz just has nothing to add at the moment. Other times, too, Lee is self critical. One thing that comes out though is that isn't the end of the line, the final word, everything's over because I said this opinion. And he talks about how his take on things has evolved with more familiarity (Ornette). Even with Braxton, who he really can't stand, he leaves it open to playing free with him. They are a tough bunch, in the end. I love Art. Over the Rainbow from the comeback period is one of the great performances from his career. I just can't get this book out of my head, though. Lots of insight. Edited November 1, 2007 by Lazaro Vega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) actually, without getting into it again in too much detail, the Pepper issue is like the one Jim and I discussed via Max Roach, though Jim would likely argue that Max was more successful at it than Pepper - an attempt to be "contemporary" by applying certain "contemporary" techniques to essentially bebop lines; problem is, he applied them in arbitrary ways which showed he had little comprehension of how to use the kind of scaluar/chordal extrapolations which go into a, let us say, post-Coltrane approach. They end up coming out as merely little slurs and occassional yelps and nothing more. And yet, when he just PLAYS - Pepper could still be brilliant. When I met him in Boston during his comeback tour, in the middle 1970s, he played at Paul's Mall and was absolutely great - he played right on the money, still had all the old intensity and invention. Only for brief moments did he try to show he had "new" chops as well, and it made little musical sense when he did it. But man, he was still incredible - between sets someone handed him a clarinet, and he went on-stage and played as well as any clarinetist I have ever heard. Of course, he was still a mess personally; I was working for a Boston magazine and went to his hotel to do an interview, and instead we spent the day driving all over town trying to make, shall I say, a connection - he was an extremely likeable guy but still into old bad habits, and that certainly did not help give him any focus - and I always disliked the Vanguard Recordings, though they were highly praised - they seemed a bit narcissistic, especially on the ballad playing. As for Konitz, I don't know if the book goes into it, but Dick Katz, who was his pianist for quite a while in the middle/late 1970s at a club called Gregory's (where I saw Konitz often, along with bassist Wilbur Little; great little club, and was the same place I got to know Al Haig) told me not long afterward that Konitz fired him because, at least for a while, Konitz would only work with Scientologists (Danko was one as well). And there was a period of time there where I remember hearing Konitz, post-Katz, and his playing seemed to be unfocused, to drift and wane. On other nights he was fine. I think the whole Scientology thing played into his own personal confusion and tendency toward self-obsession, and replaced the Tristano orthodoxy with yet another one. I don't know, however, if he is still a follower - Edited November 1, 2007 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 I don't know, however, if he is still a follower - Didn't Konitz leave Scientology about ten years ago? At least, that's what he was telling interviewers at the time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazaro Vega Posted November 1, 2007 Report Share Posted November 1, 2007 (edited) He talks about that in the book. The story about Braxton sitting in with Warne Marsh was told by Gary Foster. I thought it was Lee. Edited November 5, 2007 by Lazaro Vega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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