Understanding Free Jazz when you're listening to it.

[Hardbopjazz]

The past few days I've been listening to Free Jazz. I have never been a big fan. I don't know exactly why; to borrow a quote from Horace Silver, " I need to have a melody." How much of the music pre-thought? I know jazz is spontaneous, but for most other styles of jazz, the spontaneity is based upon cord progression. How can Ikeep an open mind when listening to free jazz and not feel like it is just noise?

[J Larsen]

Personally, I wouldn't put so much effort into it. It either works for you or it doesn't. I find that some of it REALLY works for me, and I can't say why; it just clicks with me. This tends to be more semi-free music. On the other hand, a lot of free jazz just sounds like a bunch of tedious noise to me, and gets on my nerves.

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, it either works for you or it doesn't. For me, it is often the type of thing I go for first. I cannot explain why.

There is a significant amount of "thought" and "direction" given in many "free" recordings, and "free" doesn't necessarily mean free of structure, melody, harmony or rhythm.

Another way to look at it is that, in many cases, it's the opposite of what bop aspires to - i.e., the structure comes from the improvisations themselves, rather than the other way around.

J's point is good, too, that inside/outside artists might work well for you in getting your feet wet: Trane, Ornette, Don Cherry, early Cecil, Archie Shepp, Paul Bley, Steve Lacy, mid- to late AEC, a fair amount of Ra's work all fit into this bag.

I started listening to jazz with a handful of Blue Notes, late Trane and Ayler's Bells, so you can see where I come from.

Edited December 30, 2007 by clifford_thornton

[JSngry]

"Free jazz" encompasses a lot of different musics. What kind specifically is not clicking for you?

Then again, I'd not sweat it too much. There's a lot of different roads that all lead to more or less the same place, and sooner or later they all intersect. Keeping an open mind/soul is important, but so is not trying too hard to force what don't fit.

Main thing I can say is that respect for sincere expression is at least as important as "understanding" it, definitely more important than "liking" it. If you can respect that there are people sincerely and meaningfully speaking a language that you don't understand and that that's cool all around, hey, follow your own bliss.

[clifford_thornton]

I'll also pimp my All About Jazz interviews. -_-

Most of them are with "free" players, and as my parents and some friends have said, the interviews really have helped them appreciate the music a lot more.

All About (free) Jazz

[Guest Bill Barton]

Another approach is to simply embrace the noise, accept that a sound is a sound, nothing more or less. Some sounds appeal to us, some don't. And it's all a matter of personal taste and background (among other things.) I also don't think that it's really a matter of "understanding" it. It goes beyond intellectual appreciation to something deeper-seated (though you'd probably never know it checking out the expressions on the faces of audience members at some concerts!) Some of the most emotionally compelling music that I've ever heard in performance could be described as "free" and some of the most deadly boring music I've heard live could also be described that way. One of the things that most strongly appeals to me about the more open-ended forms of improv is the risk-taking element, sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. When it does it can be transcendent. Listening to "free" improv on recordings is a whole other experience in my opinion. Once it's captured like a fly in amber it's - something else.

[Chuck Nessa]

I guess I still don't get it.

[Head Man]

I guess I still don't get it.

Whatever 'it' is!

[Chuck Nessa]

Do you understand changes, substitutions, time changes, etc when listening to "non free" music? Do you notice if the drummer is using sticks or brushes (or when he changed - bridge maybe?)? Is the drummer pushing or pulling back, is the soloist playing with or against the time? Lots of stuff going on all the time. Some soloists in the "hard bop" format mess with the notes - flat, sharp, centered - when do they do this and why? Lots of stuff to consider and then you can step off the cliff with all the various musics called "free".

On the other hand, you can relax and enjoy (or not) the music currently presented to you.

[JSngry]

Do you understand changes, substitutions, time changes, etc when listening to "non free" music? Do you notice if the drummer is using sticks or brushes (or when he changed - bridge maybe?)? Is the drummer pushing or pulling back, is the soloist playing with or against the time? Lots of stuff going on all the time. Some soloists in the "hard bop" format mess with the notes - flat, sharp, centered - when do they do this and why? Lots of stuff to consider and then you can step off the cliff with all the various musics called "free".

On the other hand, you can relax and enjoy (or not) the music currently presented to you.

Yeah, this is an important point. A lot of "free" playing is really the micro-language of "inside" playing used to speak in a context of non-cyclical and/or non-predetermined structures. If you "get" the language, then the structures become less important. If otoh what you "get" is the structures more than the language, then what you've been getting ain't there no more, and well, hey.

No real rights or wrongs here, structures themselves can be beautiful and endlessly fascinating things, as can micro-languages. It's all about what/if you want to get into/next to, and how far. A personal decision, that one is, and again, no real rights or wrongs in that regard.

[robviti]

i strongly recommend that you experience this music live. when i started to attend creative music shows a few years ago my appreciation grew tremendously. the free communication between artists is easier for me to comprehend and enjoy when i see it as well as hear it. i think another thing this music has going for it is that there can be a lot more communication and collaboration than in some jazz bands where there's one soloist who is paying more attention to the changes than to what's going on around him. granted, it doesn't all "make sense" to me, just like abstract art, and some of it probably is crap. if you're near the city, you have many opportunities to catch free music in a live setting. and as others have said, don't worry about whether you "get it." focus more on feeling it. enjoy it if you can, and please post when you see and hear something you like. i think this board could use more helpful discussions about improvised music in the years since bebop and hardbop.

[analogak]

with your attitude, you have already lost the battle.

i don't mean this in an insulting way...just that ANYTHING you need to think about the merits of it or sort of fit why you should like it or listen to it into little cubbies of thought...that is a bad way to listen to anything. don't force it.

either you feel it or you don't.

me personally, i need a steady rhythm or i can't get into it.

but imagine if the music was a woman and you had to keep analyzing why you liked her and trying to find good parts about her...how long would that last?

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Do you understand changes, substitutions, time changes, etc when listening to "non free" music? Do you notice if the drummer is using sticks or brushes (or when he changed - bridge maybe?)? Is the drummer pushing or pulling back, is the soloist playing with or against the time? Lots of stuff going on all the time. Some soloists in the "hard bop" format mess with the notes - flat, sharp, centered - when do they do this and why? Lots of stuff to consider and then you can step off the cliff with all the various musics called "free".

On the other hand, you can relax and enjoy (or not) the music currently presented to you.

Thanks.

MG

[alocispepraluger102]

wait till some marketing super genius discovers smooth free jazz, and some less than mediocre wannabe jazzmen with fine hair and store bought teeth become household legends.

make that public think they are eating hip while serving up horse manure on a fancy plate. they wont know the difference.

Edited December 30, 2007 by alocispepraluger102

[John L]

One way into free jazz (the route that I took) is through the blues. The blues has a logic and asthetic realm that can function without much of the accumulated baggage of straightahead jazz through the 1950s. A good amount of free jazz in the 60s and 70s was about doing something new with the blues by stripping it down to its bare elements: Ornette, Ayler, Shepp, and Hemphill, for example.