Chuck Nessa Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 I remember posting cost of a reissue (not a new release where there are session expenses) on the old BN board and most folks were amazed at the expenses and profit margins. Forever indies have tagged along with the "majors" to feed on the bottom. The majors are fading and the indies (not the artist owned outfits where no musician is paid) have been in trouble for a few years. I did a reissue of my Art Ensemble stuff and paid the band $25,000, issued the stuff and it took me 13 years to sell 2500 copies. In order to finance the set I sold my lp collection, took out a $37,000 second mortgage on my house. I am still paying off the house and the AE boxes are gone. The indies always have to live with the market created and sustained by the majors. If there was no WEA, no RCA and no Columbia I would not have had lps in Tower stores in the '60s-'80s. The paridigm has been destroyed and now you have a bunch of indie labels recording bands live and giving them "product to sell" in payment for the issue. We all suffer as a result. Can you imagine how I feel when a board member posts links to one of the sites offering free downloads of my stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 Indeed, Chuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 So why don't all the manufacturers & producers simply stop making music and move on? If a year or two went by with no new CDs, I think consumers would start to get the idea that they need to pay something for the music. Live music clubs would still be around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 So why don't all the manufacturers & producers simply stop making music and move on? If a year or two went by with no new CDs, I think consumers would start to get the idea that they need to pay something for the music. Live music clubs would still be around. Are you willing to stop your income for a couple of years to make a point? More importantly, are you willing to ignore/abandon your "calling in life"? If the answers are that simple for you, you have my sympathy. Oh, I missed the part where you wanted me to work as minion at Wal-Mart. Would you like a cart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GA Russell Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 I don't disagree with the points made here. But I have to wonder how much illegal downloading results in lost sales of music aimed at adults. I understand that college kids get most of their music now through illegal downloading, so the sale of rock music should suffer, and it does. But jazz? I have to think, with no evidence to back it up, that the people who are illegally downloading music would not have bought the CD anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 Guess you don't have any dogs in this fight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Larsen Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 I don't know GA... it's not all that uncommon for college students to get into jazz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 Since this download stuff/RIAA started many years ago, the BBS have attacked the RIAA for going after "poor individual downloaders" and most of them have proven to be folks uploading files for "mass" downloads. I hate to be on the side of the "big guys" after all these years but after discovering folks like "Rab/Granny Hines" and a bunch of others I have developed another opinion. Here is the text of some messages sent to RapidShare by me: The following links infringe on copyrights held by us: http://rapidshare.com/files/35469020/aec-nssa.part01.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35467535/aec-nssa.part02.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35465819/aec-nssa.part03.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35464028/aec-nssa.part04.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35459071/aec-nssa.part05.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35457181/aec-nssa.part06.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35454251/aec-nssa.part07.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35451334/aec-nssa.part08.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35448196/aec-nssa.part09.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35445914/aec-nssa.part10.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35443935/aec-nssa.part11.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35441821/aec-nssa.part12.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35439725/aec-nssa.part13.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35437666/aec-nssa.part14.rar http://rapidshare.com/files/35435454/aec-nssa.part15.rar The links were provided by http://xxxxxxxxxx.blogspot.com/ The infringed work is a 5 cd set and booklet titled The Art Ensemble 1967/68. Charles T Nessa Nessa Records PO Box 394 123 Tulgeywood Ln Whitehall, MI 49461 USA NEXT: The following link infringes on a copyright held by us: http://rapidshare.com/files/49898728/processnn.zip . This link was provided by http://xxxxxxxxxx.blogspot.com/ in a "comments" page located at https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=xx...mp;isPopup=true . The infringed work is a compact disc by Leo Smith titled Procession of the Great Ancestry. Charles T Nessa Nessa Records PO Box 394 123 Tulgeywood Ln Whitehall, MI 49461 USA Phone 231 894-4088 NEXT: The following link infringes on a copyright held by us: http://rapidshare.com/files/29831524/Snurdy_.rar . The link was provided by http://XXXXXXXXXX.blogspot.com/ in a "comments" page located at https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=XX...mp;isPopup=true The RapidShare link is via http://tinyurl.com/2mpr79 . The infringed work is a compact disc by Roscoe Mitchell titled Snurdy McGurdy and Her Dancin' Shoes. Charles T Nessa Nessa Records PO Box 394 123 Tulgeywood Ln. Whitehall, MI 49461 USA Phone 231 894-4088 RapidShare deleted the files within 48 hours to cover their ass. Why do I have to search out these thieves to stop them? These links had been up for months before I discovered them. I have found similar postings of my Air, Fred Anderson and other Mitchell sessions. Roscoe's Nonaah, which I am in the midst of reissuing at the cost of a few thousand dollars, has been discovered on 4 different sites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted January 1, 2008 Report Share Posted January 1, 2008 I fully understand where you're coming from, Chuck. I was always lousy when it came to business, so I don't a royalty on any of the 60 or so albums I produced (and I'm not including reissue albums). If a royalty were due me, I'd be as mad as you are, for I often see my stuff offered for free download. I was very angry when a so-called "feminist author" named Elaine Feinstein all but plagiarized my Bessie biography verbatim. Unfortunately, my publisher was facing bankruptcy, so they did nothing about it. But I know the feeling and the frustration of seeing people get away with that kind of theft. I feel differently about the major labels, because they have ripped off artists and consumers for years and RIAA defending them is tantamount to co-conspiracy, IMHO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Thanks Chris. I really want to "up" the topic so more can see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Oh, I missed the part where you wanted me to work as minion at Wal-Mart. Would you like a cart? A fully grumped-up Chuck Nessa working as a greeter - and the faces of those who got greeted - would be the first legitimate reason for me to want to go to Wal-Mart in the history of the world. But I pray to never live to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I will be waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron S Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 In that case, yes, I WOULD like a cart. And can you tell me how to get to the jazz CD section? I'm planning to fill this sucker up to the brim. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 In that case, yes, I WOULD like a cart. And can you tell me how to get to the jazz CD section? I'm planning to fill this sucker up to the brim. I'll give you a map. Leave the store and follow the instructions to my basement. I'll help you load the cart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 it's a pretty tricky situation. what exactly would you suggest, Chuck? I can make arguments on both sides, I both run an indie label as well as a mail order distributor of other labels, and have bought an absurd amount of CDs as a consumer (including one of those AEC boxes, #157, and not that I'm telling you anything you don't know, but you should be very proud of that release). pro-illegal file-sharing: some people have a chance to be exposed to something they wouldn't otherwise hear. I know for a fact there are people who first heard Erstwhile stuff via filesharing, and went on to buy the entire catalog. also, there are large chunks of the world where people can't afford CDs, much of Eastern Europe for instance. to say they shouldn't then be able to hear this music seems like cultural imperialism to me. also, illegal filesharing allows me, as a consumer, to make much more informed decisions about what I buy. I still buy approximately as much as I did before, but now I'm decidedly more satisfied with my purchases. anti-illegal file-sharing: these arguments are mostly more obvious, but I tend to think that overall, filesharing cuts into CD sales. by how much? it's impossible to say, but I'd guess somewhere between 20-50 percent in the area of music I focus on, depending on the release. I know that sales of my releases have generally trended down over the last decade, even as the profile of the label has continued to go up. but more to the point, there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about it now, no matter what silliness the RIAA gets up to when really they should be focusing their efforts on actually making some good records once in a while. this is the reality of life in 2007, and nothing will put the genie back in the bottle. adapt or die, those seem to be the choices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 If the technology is morality-neutral, then the battle is for the minds of the consumers, educating them as to the hows & whys of who gets what and why, why that's not a bad thing, and why expecting to get something for nothing is a sucker's game sure to bring it all crashing down sooner or later. Unfortunately, there is very little (forgive me if I sometimes think of ti as nothing) in the economic behavior of American society today (or in recent memory) that correlates to this. So at best, people gonna know better but make excuses, or at worse, not know any better and think you're crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 If the technology is morality-neutral, then the battle is for the minds of the consumers, educating them as to the hows & whys of who gets what and why, why that's not a bad thing, and why expecting to get something for nothing is a sucker's game sure to bring it all crashing down sooner or later. Unfortunately, there is very little (forgive me if I sometimes think of ti as nothing) in the economic behavior of American society today (or in recent memory) that correlates to this. So at best, people gonna know better but make excuses, or at worse, not know any better and think you're crazy. well, it's not America we're talking about here, it's the whole world. those Nessa discs are just as likely to have been posted from Russia or Japan or Slovenia as they are from the US. also, one thing on the potential side of the small labels trying to survive is that you only need maybe 500-1000 purchasers of each title, so a few dozen in each country can add up fast. I agree with the first part, though, which is one reason why I spend quite a bit of time in different discussion forums and chat rooms on the web, trying to put a face on my label so that people realize they're not just pirating a faceless corporation. also, reading back more closely, I'm not sure I agree with Chuck's complaints about Nonaah being put up for DL. first of all, it was presumably not a lossless file, but more importantly, it's been OOP for decades, right? are people not supposed to hear music because you've chosen to keep it OOP for whatever reason? I wonder how Roscoe feels about that specific situation? I can see the potential argument there from your side, but I don't buy it. I think a label has a much better argument if the release under discussion is actually in print, otherwise you've left consumers with no alternative. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 (edited) are people not supposed to hear music because you've chosen to keep it OOP for whatever reason? I wonder how Roscoe feels about that specific situation? I can see the potential argument there from your side, but I don't buy it. I think a label has a much better argument if the release under discussion is actually in print, otherwise you've left consumers with no alternative. I'm quite sure Chuck is not volunteerly keeping things OOP. But your argument is another example of the view that the public is somehow entitled to a music recording, regardless of what the rightsholder does. It's not necessarily good for future sales or the prospect of a future reissue that a recording is circulated on the Internet. There's no easy way out of the current situation, and I'm not saying that the issue is just black and white. Speaking of copyrights, I don't know many musicians who do not own a copy of the old, illegal "Real Book". Edited January 2, 2008 by Daniel A Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 It's not necessarily good for future sales or the prospect of a future reissue that a recording is circulated on the Internet. no, but it's also not necessarily fair to a musician/group to have some of their best work kept OOP for years or decades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Alfredson Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Why does it matter if a musician or group has their "best kept work OOP" or not? They certainly are not getting any money from the trading of illegal files. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel A Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 It's not necessarily good for future sales or the prospect of a future reissue that a recording is circulated on the Internet. no, but it's also not necessarily fair to a musician/group to have some of their best work kept OOP for years or decades. Not everything is fair in a market economy. And nothing is for free... Any way you put it, file sharing is still in conflict with traditional laws and rules. Of course, when too many people are thinking otherwise, something might happen. But just the ease with which digital music files can be copied is not the right incentive for rewriting intellectual property law. There's much to take into account; what to do with copyright in general, how will it affect patent law, trademark rights etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 Why does it matter if a musician or group has their "best kept work OOP" or not? They certainly are not getting any money from the trading of illegal files. this isn't true, they could very well get more concert bookings from a wider exposure of their music. for instance, Thomas Ankersmit, a saxophonist based in Berlin, has barely any physical releases available but has toured worldwide largely based on his work circulating via file-sharing. many EAI musicians have done South American tours/shows over the last couple of years, and that's also largely attributable to illegal file-sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 It's not necessarily good for future sales or the prospect of a future reissue that a recording is circulated on the Internet. no, but it's also not necessarily fair to a musician/group to have some of their best work kept OOP for years or decades. Not everything is fair in a market economy. And nothing is for free... Any way you put it, file sharing is still in conflict with traditional laws and rules. Of course, when too many people are thinking otherwise, something might happen. But just the ease with which digital music files can be copied is not the right incentive for rewriting intellectual property law. There's much to take into account; what to do with copyright in general, how will it affect patent law, trademark rights etc. I'm not talking about what's legal or not, I'm talking about how to function in the world of 2007 as a record label or a musician or a consumer. whether this is illegal or not (it obviously is) really doesn't matter. smoking pot isn't legal either (most places), but that certainly doesn't stop most people interested in doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon abbey Posted January 2, 2008 Report Share Posted January 2, 2008 I don't want to be in the position of blindly defending illegal file-sharing here. I make my living from selling CDs (the ones on my label and other labels), and I have bills to pay every month just like everyone else. all I'm saying is that it's an incredibly complex issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted January 3, 2008 Report Share Posted January 3, 2008 I don't want to be in the position of blindly defending illegal file-sharing here. I make my living from selling CDs (the ones on my label and other labels), and I have bills to pay every month just like everyone else. all I'm saying is that it's an incredibly complex issue. Not really complex. Roscoe and I own Nonaah. It has not been reissued yet for a number of reasons. Some of these reasons are financial, some artistic and some logistical. When it finally comes on the marketplace it will contain a significant number of previously unreleased performances and will be a 24 bit remix of the 8 channel tapes. This takes time and money. Free downloads of the lps makes me less likely to spend the big bucks (for me) to do the music "right". Nobody really deserves to hear anything not uttered from themselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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