Ahmad Jamal "Chamber Music of the New Jazz" LP

[Shrdlu]

After getting two duds (a fake stereo and then a very badly scratched mono), I finally tracked down a real mono LP in acceptable condition. It's not perfect, but is quite listenable, and I doubt that good copies of this LP are easy to come by.

This is, of course, historically a very important album, but that's another story.

My question is: does anyone know what the original LP cover was? I have two here. One has a picture of an old car on a cobbled street. It looks like an old Citröen in Paris. The LP label is gray, and it says J09P 1209-1 in the dead wax on side 1. The other album cover has a picture of Ahmad done up like a dog's dinner (old Cockney slang!) in a white tux. The LP label is black, and the stuff in the dead wax is exactly the same. The two editions of the LP are identical in all other ways.

Thanks for any help you can give with this momentous question.

[mikeweil]

If "original" means the first issue, The Parrot and Blue Lake Labels can help you, as this LP was sold to the Chess Brothers only some time later. Be patient, it's a large page that takes eternities to load, but it is very informative and well done.

[mikeweil]

Here's the original cover and even the back!

[Shrdlu]

Hey, thanks a LOT, Mike!

This is quite a surprise, as I thought that this album was recorded for Argo.

An interesting point is the fact that it was recorded before Ahmad stopped recording for Columbia (Okeh/Epic). The trio (with Ray Crawford and Eddie Calhoun) did two sessions of four tunes each in 1951 and 1952, originally released on Okeh 78s and then later on LPs. Then came the Parrot (Argo) session, on 5/23/55. Then, a final set of Columbia sessions in October 1955, which produced 14 tracks. Israel Crosby had replaced Eddie Calhoun by 1955, of course.

It goes without saying that all these tracks would make an excellent Mosaic.

By the way, I have not traced any other Jamal recordings in this 1951-55 period. There seems to be quite a large gap. That is sad, as a case could be made that the group was at its most influential stage ever during those years. That's certainly true as far as the influence on Miles, Trane, Red and Gil Evans goes.

[mikeweil]

It goes without saying that all these tracks would make an excellent Mosaic.

By the way, I have not traced any other Jamal recordings in this 1951-55 period. There seems to be quite a large gap. That is sad, as a case could be made that the group was at its most influential stage ever during those years. That's certainly true as far as the influence on Miles, Trane, Red and Gil Evans goes.

Of course it would make a great Mosaic, but when I e-mailed them a year or two ago, they replied the Chamber Jazz LP was "in legal tangles, or we would have done the trio long ago", at least that was about what they said. Only one track appeared on a Chess Jamal compilation (New Rumba). The complete Okeh sides were on two French CBS CDs several years ago.

Maybe some Spanish label will do it once the copyright runs out in Europe? I'm afraid the two Parrot 78's will be hard to find, as is an LP in good condition.

Did you get it there were four titles recorded for Parrot before the Lp session?

That makes five sessions in all.

(Can you/do you make LP to CDR transfers? I have only a cassette made from a scratchy LP bought second hand in Paris, it was so badly warped I played and taped it once under serious precautions and gave it to a friend whose turntable could handle it better .... )

Edited September 22, 2003 by mikeweil

[mikeweil]

BTW, Jamal moved from Okeh to Parrot because Columbia closed its Chicago branch, I quote from the excellent site linked in my post above:

"In January 1954, Parrot conducted a significant jazz recording session with pianist Ahmad Jamal. Born Fritz Jones in Pittsburgh, Jamal went as "Freddy" during World War II, when a Germanic name lacked appeal, then dropped his birth name entirely (to the extent of vehemently denying he'd ever been called Fritz Jones) after converting to Islam. He arrived in Chicago in 1950; Musicians Union Local 208 gave him some trouble before allowing him to contract for gigs locally. On December 16, 1950, the Defender ran an ad and a photo with caption for bassist's Israel Crosby's band appearing at Jack's Back Door (5859 South State). The photo named Fritz Jones on piano and Johnny Thompson on tenor sax. While still Fritz Jones, he made his first recordings (with bass and guitar) for OKeh in 1951. And he was going as "Fritz Jones" on August 2, 1951, when Local 208 of the Musicians Union accepted and filed his contract with the 113 Lounge. Pre-release advertisements from OKeh referred to the "Fritz Jones Trio," but by the time of his second session in 1952, he had changed his name. After OKeh threw in the towel on its Chicago operations in 1953, Jamal moved to Parrot. "But Not for Me," "Seleritus" (an original ballad), "Excerpts from the Blues" and "It Could Happen to You" were recorded with a trio that included Ray Crawford on electric guitar and the celebrated Chicago-born bassist Richard Davis. Jamal's style is already recognizable on these numbers and Sun Ra's later charge that Jamal ripped off his rendition of "But Not for Me" lacks credibility. Al Benson may have been in no great hurry to issue the material, but he sensed enough commercial potential to call the trio back in May 1955 for the only LP to be released on the Parrot label. Major commercial success came to Ahmad Jamal in 1958, when his new trio with Israel Crosby on bass and Vernel Fournier on drums made the Live at the Pershing LPs for the Chess subsidiary Argo."

These are the dates for Parrot 78 session:

P-53185 Ahmad Jamal But Not for Me Parrot 810

P53-186 Ahmad Jamal Excerpts from the Blues Parrot 818

P53-187 Ahmad Jamal It Could Happen to You Parrot 818

P-53189 Ahmad Jamal Seleritus Parrot 810

recorded January 1954, released prob. December 1954

Ahmad Jamal piano, Ray Crawford guitar, Richard Davis bass.

Edited June 14, 2008 by mikeweil

[Shrdlu]

Wow! Thanks for all the extra information, Mike.

I have never heard about the four Parrot 78 pieces. How interesting that Richard Davis was on those.

I have a copy of the French 2 CD Columbia set. It seems to have been taken from LP masters that were available to the French branch of Columbia. Sadly, half of the tracks are from an LP master that had fake stereo or reverb added. They sound pretty bad. These tracks are the ones which are on the Epic LP "Ahmad Jamal Trio", so I found a good copy of that LP and made up a custom 2 CD set with the tracks from that LP and the rest taken from the French 2 CD set (those sound fine, by the way).

I was aware that Mosaic is currently unable to issue a Jamal (guitar) trio set because of problems in getting permission to use the Argo (Parrot) masters. I think this problem is being caused by the Jamal family, and not by Universal, which owns the Argo catalog.

The Epic LP that I tracked down sounds much better than the Argo LP.

[Guest youmustbe]

Ahmad is suing Universal. He claims his original contract with Chess (Argo) says that no reissue can be done without his permission. He says Universal put out the stuff without his say so.

[Shrdlu]

Thanks, YMB. That's ironic, as Universal has never reissued the "Chamber Music" LP, which must be the most important Argo album, historically. I don't think they have reissued the "Live At The Pershing" album, either - the 1958 one with the famous version of "Poinciana" with Vernell on drums (not to be confused with the earlier Columbia version with the guitar trio, which was the model for the version on George Braith's "Two Souls In One" album).

[mikeweil]

It is even more of an irony that the (arguably) most important Argo LP originally was not an Argo recording!

Live at the Pershing has been on CD, in the Chess Legendary Masters Series, issued in the MCA days of the label, # MCD 09108, issued in 1997.

Later the material was partly released, in recording order, on a GRP CD in the Original Chess Masters Jazz Series, # GRP 1 803 2. The remainder was included on the double CD Cross Country Tour: 1958-1961 in the same series, # GRP 1 813 2.

I also have a French low price CD with some of the Pershing material including Poinciana. And there was a US anthology of Jamal's Chess material that included New Rhumba from the Chamber Music CD.

That makes 4 issues and 4 reasons for Jamal to sue Universal. Jamal was a leader in his own right from the beginning of his career, it makes sense to me he would sign such a contract to make sure he gets his share of the cake. If so, I'm not mad at him for stopping the reissues.

I have a feeling some Spanish label will do this material as soon as the European copyright allows them to do so, and I will buy it, legitimate or not in view of the US companies - they are to blame as long as they don't do it themselves!

[JSngry]

Hey Shrdlu, does your copy of CHAMBER MUSIC have a green tint to it like this one? This is an early 80s version w/crappy "simulated stereo". Oh, for the good old days when amps had a mono switch!

[JSngry]

And, is this the only cover for the Epic? Sorry about the poor lighting, I'm still learning this webcam stuff...

[Guest youmustbe]

I've heard Ahmad play Poinciana at least 300 times. Only a handfull of performance were perfunctory.

Even when he was in a bad mood, he would always find some new vamp, or funk phrase, or fill and spur himself on.

But, I still have a soft spot for his Fender playing. Nobody played it like that, getting different sounds out of it. Not Herbie, Sample, James, and the rest who were famous for it. Zawinul got some different sounds out of it, and Horace Silver was great on the whatever brand he played (not Fender, I forget). But, Ahmad! He would literally rock the house when he played Nature Boy on the Fender.

BTW Some of the best Ahmad soloing ever is on Cry Young. Every note to the point! And some of his finest harmonic playing.

I asked him once how was Richard Davis in his trio. And he replied 'The best cello player I ever had!'

[Shrdlu]

JS, that "Chamber Music" cover is one of the ones that I have (see my initial post), and it was used for real mono LPs as well as the fake stereo version (which my first copy was - I sent it back to the retailer). The mono LP was Argo, and the fake stereo was Chess.

And yes, that is the cover of my Epic LP. It's the only one that I have seen. It is a stupid, irrelevant cover that is more suited to a car wax label, and the liner notes, such as they are, are garbage. Most of the back is devoted to a listing of other Epic LPs, few of which are of interest to jazz collectors.

Argo and Epic sure did not have the class of Blue Note when it came to both cover art and liner notes. Oh, for a Leonard Feather or a Nat Hentoff.

One copy of the Argo LP came with a loose sheet, listing other Argo LPs.

[JSngry]

And yes, that is the cover of my Epic LP....

...Most of the back is devoted to a listing of other Epic LPs, few of which are of interest to jazz collectors.

I've noticed that tendency on other Epic LPs of the time, which leads me to think that Epic must have origianlly been a Columbia "budget" label of sorts. Can those who were there at the time confirm or deny this?

[Michael Fitzgerald]

Epic always was the second-class citizen in the Columbia confederacy. (Aretha Franklin was signed by Columbia, her sister Erma Franklin was signed by Epic.)

Not really a budget label, though. Here's the pricing in 1959:

$3.98 - Columbia CL, Epic LN, LG

$4.98 - Columbia ML, OL, WL, Epic LC, LS, SC

$5.98 - Columbia KL, CS, Epic BN

$9.98 - Columbia SL (2 records), Language series

Stereo cost more, but Columbia and Epic were on the same level, price-wise. It was more a prestige thing.

Mike

[mikeweil]

Now I understand why Pony Poindexter was so disappointed when his Pony Express LP came out on Epic, with considerable delay and not on Columbia as promised - in his view they were preferring Paul Winter, who was also playing soprano, but was white, playing bossa nova and had just performed at the White House!

[Shrdlu]

What a huge percentage difference between the prices of the stereo and mono LPs in 1959!

Most of my LP purchasing was from about 1962 onward, and, as far as I can recall, there was by then no difference in price between mono and stereo. (This was perhaps just as well, as by then, the fake stereo LPs were a serious hazard to one's health. I still can't listen to "Milestones" without remembering the terrible version that I heard on a bad LP.)

I do remember the Impulse LPs costing about $1.00 more than most others in the 60s, but their gatefold covers were very attractive, and, of course, the music was generally terrific.

[JSngry]

Maybe it was a Texas thing, but as a kid in the mid-late 60s, I remember stereo being $1 more than mono. We had a Silvertone semi-portable device up until 1969 or so, and they didn't develop the "one size fits all" stylus for it until '68 or so (at least not that I found out about), so we had to buy mono records.

Saved money, but I had to go to other peoples' houses for the true psychedelic music experience.

[Shrdlu]

Silvertone! I love it!

I remember a stylus that would play mono and stereo in about 1962. I converted our mono player to stereo after I noticed that there were three wires in the tone arm. With both channels sharing the ground wire, I replaced the mono cartridge with a stereo one. The output from one channel was hooked up to an old radio, which became just an amp (with speaker). It was all very primitive, and I'm sure that the weight of the tone arm was now far too great, but it worked and it was all that we could afford at the time. My first stereo LP was "Time Out". A collection of friends came around and we all listened to this with great excitement.

[brownie]

What a huge percentage difference between the prices of the stereo and mono LPs in 1959!

Most of my LP purchasing was from about 1962 onward, and, as far as I can recall, there was by then no difference in price between mono and stereo. (This was perhaps just as well, as by then, the fake stereo LPs were a serious hazard to one's health. I still can't listen to "Milestones" without remembering the terrible version that I heard on a bad LP.)

I do remember the Impulse LPs costing about $1.00 more than most others in the 60s, but their gatefold covers were very attractive, and, of course, the music was generally terrific.

From various record label catalogues (and old magazines) I have, prices for LP albums in 1959-1960 were:

- Atlantic mono LP $4.98, stereo $5.98,

- Blue Note mono $4.98, stereo $5.98,

- Contemporary mono $4.98, stereo $5.95 (probably adjusted to $5.98 later),

- Prestige mono $4.98, stereo $5.98, NewJazz $3.98,

- UA mono and stereo $4.98.

By 1963, Prestige had all its albums at $4.98, except their Tru-Sounds series at

$3.98.

[Shrdlu]

Thanks, Brownie.

You mention Prestige. In the 60s, and, I think, into the 70s, you could order LPs direct from Prestige in North Bergen, New Jersey. (This was just as well, as I don't remember seeing many of them in the stores.) I remember the name Marcia Weinstock on one letter that I received from them, so this was very much a family operation. How different from today's system, with its Universals etc. It reminds me of a comment by Al Lion: "We don't hire nobody. It's just Frank and me."

[brownie]

It reminds me of a comment by Al Lion: "We don't hire nobody. It's just Frank and me."

I can certify to that. When I visited the BN offices on a couple of occasions in the mid-60s, there was the Lion and the Wolf inside. And that was it.

I purchased albums from them direct. Once, I had to wait behind Roy Haynes who was waiting to get a free copy of the just-released Horace Silver's 'Song For My Father'. Wolf was the one digging out the requested albums.

I was writing articles on jazz at the time(never got any money from it) and had an arrangement from BN and Prestige for copies of new releases at $2.50 each.

Got quite a number that way but wish I had not ignored some of the LP albums still available then.

[Guest]

Thanks, Brownie.

You mention Prestige. In the 60s, and, I think, into the 70s, you could order LPs direct from Prestige in North Bergen, New Jersey. (This was just as well, as I don't remember seeing many of them in the stores.) I remember the name Marcia Weinstock on one letter that I received from them, so this was very much a family operation. How different from today's system, with its Universals etc. It reminds me of a comment by Al Lion: "We don't hire nobody. It's just Frank and me."

Marcia was my aunt; she was Bob Weinstock's sister. She was in charge of mail order and folk I think.

[garthsj]

What a huge percentage difference between the prices of the stereo and mono LPs in 1959!

Most of my LP purchasing was from about 1962 onward, and, as far as I can recall, there was by then no difference in price between mono and stereo. (This was perhaps just as well, as by then, the fake stereo LPs were a serious hazard to one's health. I still can't listen to "Milestones" without remembering the terrible version that I heard on a bad LP.)

I do remember the Impulse LPs costing about $1.00 more than most others in the 60s, but their gatefold covers were very attractive, and, of course, the music was generally terrific.

From various record label catalogues (and old magazines) I have, prices for LP albums in 1959-1960 were:

- Atlantic mono LP $4.98, stereo $5.98,

- Blue Note mono $4.98, stereo $5.98,

- Contemporary mono $4.98, stereo $5.95 (probably adjusted to $5.98 later),

- Prestige mono $4.98, stereo $5.98, NewJazz $3.98,

- UA mono and stereo $4.98.

By 1963, Prestige had all its albums at $4.98, except their Tru-Sounds series at

$3.98.

I have had this discussion with my popular culture students many times ... consider the prices of LPs in 1960, and then compare it with the price of LPs when they began to be faded out in , say 1995. The prices at that time were only $7.95 to $9.95. There were almost no other enterainment commodities that had only doubled in price over that period of time. Movie prices had gone over four or five times in the same period. Books have gone six or seven times their 1960 prices. There was a definite consumer resistance to paying above the $10.00 price for an LP ... when CDs came along, which are much cheaper to produce than vinyl LPs, the record companies loved the fact that this broke consumer resistance to the point that we now have many CDs priced at $18.95 and even above ... Still compared to cars, houses, and even movies, this is still quite a good deal ...