Juillard Quartet's Debussy and Ravel

[Larry Kart]

Found a clean-enough copy (mono) of this old LP, which I used to have, at a used-book store today. Brought it home not sure what to expect after a gap of some 45 years, and holy s---! I don't care for much of what I've heard by later editions of the Juilliard, but this is some fantastic playing. In particular, one always hears (allowing of course for what Debussy and Ravel wrote/had in mind) all the parts as parts and as a whole. Well, I'm not putting that quite right; rather (perhaps) it's the weighting of parts within the whole, the minute/precise but never finicky gradations of dynamics and rhythmic flow. And contrary to the Juilliard's rep in some quarters, there's plenty, plenty soul -- violist Raphael Hillyer in the slow movement of the Debussy, for example; and violinists Robert Mann and Isidore Cohen, and cellist Claus Adam respond in kind. I see that these performances are available as a pricey import on Testament, with the Webern Five Movements and Six Bagatelles added. Another Testament has their Berg Lyric Suite (which I also used to own and have fond memories of -- why does one get rid of such things or let them slip away?), plus quartets by Elliott Carter and William Schuman. Beware, though, of the Juilliard's Debussy/Ravel remake for Sony. Actually, I haven't heard that recording, but other recordings by that later Juilliard lineup (actually, there was more one later lineup) haven't worked for me. In particular, first violinist Mann got more and more wiry -- in the Juilliard's Sony Late Beethoven set (I think I heard the earlier of two such sets Sony sets, preceded no doubt by one for RCA), it sounds at times like Mann's playing chalk on a blackboard. Also, I suspect that the departure of cellist Adam was a key loss, both as a player and as part of the group's "How should we play his?" colloquy. Adam (who joined in 1955 and left in '74) was a composer himself, a student of Stefan Wolpe.

Here's the Juilliard lineup over the years:

First violin

1946 　Robert Mann

1997　 Joel Smirnoff

Second violin

1946　 Robert Korff

1958　 Isidore Cohen

1966　 Earl Carlyss

1986 　Joel Smirnoff

1997　 Ronald Copes

Viola

1946　 Raphael Hillyer

1969　 Samuel Rhodes

Violoncello

1946 　Arthur Winograd

1955 　Claus Adam

1974 　Joel Krosnick

[Mark Stryker]

That ealy '60s Debussy/Ravel is a m.f. -- maybe the finest edition of the Juilliard at its absolute peak. RCA reissued it late in the LP era in its digitally remastered Legendary Performers series at midprice. It's still my favorite recording of these works. There were just five years or so in the early '60s when the Juilliard was signed to RCA and those LPs are are all stunners -- there's an incredibly intense Beethoven Op. 131; the Carter 2nd/William Schuman 3rd; Schubert "Death and the the Maiden"/"Quartettstz"; Haydn Op. 74, No. 1/Op. 77 No. 1; Mozart K465 and K387; and the Berg Lyric Suite/Webern Five Pieces Op. 5 and Six Bagatelles Op. 9. (The Berg/Webern has a great cover: sky blue background with the four guys in tails seated and standing and Bobby Mann looking lean and a bit like JFK.) Update Friday morning: I left out two LPs. There's also a Beethoven Op. 95/135 and a Dvorak, Op. 61/Wolf, "Italian Serenade.""

I've had fun collecting all of the LPs but I've also taken the plunge on a couple of the Testament CDs -- the Beethoven Op. 131 coupled with the Schubert Death and the Maiden; the Berg/Carter/Schuman -- and nobody who invests will be disappointed. I wish this edition had recorded the entire Beethoven cycle, especially the Late Quartets, but by the time they got to it for Columbia in the mid and late 60s, Carlyss had replaced Cohen. That said, I adore that first Beethoven cycle for its mix of guts and insight, plus enough beauty when they need it. By the time of their last remake in the early 80s (live at the Library of Congress I believe) the later problems that Larry mentions are in evidence. But I will say that on a good night in concert (or good day in the studio), the later Juilliard could still bring it. With some trepidation I just bought a LP box of the Mozart "Haydn" quartets recorded in the early '80s and was pleasantly surprised to hear just how supple the ensemble sounds; some of the Juilliard grit is still there but in a soulful way.

Sorting out all of the records is too daunting at this hour, but its worth mentioning that the early '60s Bartok cycle (with the Cohen line-up) remains incomparable. It's a crime that it's not available domestically and hasn't been for eons, but I'm pretty sure you can get it as an import. When I worked in a classical record store in Champaign in the mid '80s you could still get it as a 3 for the price of 2 LP box. The Juilliard's early '50s mono LPs (the first complete Bartok cycle on record, yes?) are a gas too. More raw, less settled and less sweeping than the later versions; sort of like Bird's first Now's The Time as compared to the great remake on Verve. The final digital Bartoks by the Juilliard late in the game on Sony have the same issues as the later Beethovens.

God, I loved this quartet in its prime. Larry's got it right -- it's a heterogeneous blend in which you can hear all of the individual parts and personalities of the players without sacrificing a basic ensemble unity, along with that fierce rhythmic energy and edge and the interpretive imagination they bring to the notion of a composer's intent. The balance of individualism and ensemble is a truly American approach, and in many ways analogous to a jazz band. There are other great quartets no doubt and of those that came of age in the Juilliard's early years, the Hollywood remains especially underrated -- that group is another passion of mine. But the Juilliard is special.

Bobby Mann is a particular hero, even with the sound and intonation problems that came up late in the game. Somebody once called him the most important American-born chamber music player ever and I think it's a pretty fair statement. When he finally retired (at 76 or 77), I wrote a story about him in which I quoted Juilliard cellist Joel Krosnick comparing him to Larry Bird. Mann was never the most naturally gifted violinist in terms of flawless technique or opulent tone, but through hard work, intellect and sheer force of will he transformed himself into a world-class musician. Bird was similar said Krosnick. "Can't run, can't jump, slow, but he scores 26 points a game, 12 assists, 13 rebounds and his team wins the NBA championship."

Edited January 25, 2008 by Mark Stryker

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

This was one of my all time favourite classical couplings, back in the day. I never heard the Juillard version, but I heard a few and the one I went for was by the Vlach Quartet, on Supraphon. That version completely swept me away.

I just looked to see if it was still about. A reissue on Archiv in 2000 is deleted and two copies are being offered on Amazon UK for £140.98 and £144.98.

Wonder what the original LP is fetching, then?

MG

[Larry Kart]

Just ordered the Juilliard Debussy-Ravel and the Berg Lyric Suite on Testament. In for a penny...

Mark's "The balance of individualism and ensemble is a truly American approach, and in many ways analogous to a jazz band" is what I was thinking below the level of actual consciousness. Also, as in much jazz, the ability to hear (or to think you can detect) the people behind the parts that make up the whole can be moving in itself at times. I'm thinking again of the slow movement of the Debussy, where Hillyer's smoldering lines, which are so present-tense in feel that it's almost like they're being improvised, seem to inspire the other players to respond in kind. It's like you're hearing them think "Oh, there goes Rafe again -- let's climb on board."

[Mark Stryker]

I did some fun listening over the weekend to some early Juilliard recordings and tried to flesh out the details of the discography. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a good discography online. I have in my files about half the Juilliard's complete Columbia/CBS/Sony discography in the form of a 12-year old fax from some publicity guy with Sony/Juilliard, but for some reason it cuts off with the letter "M," which is really a drag.

Anyway, I was a bit off in my previous reference to the Juilliard's time with RCA. It started earlier than I remembered, in 1957, with the Mozart and Haydn recordings (before Korff was replaced by Cohen as second violinist), and seems to have lasted into 1962. The Dvorak/Wolf RCA has a 1964 copywright date on the back of the jacket, but it must have sat in the can for a couple years. It is certainly true that by 1963, the quartet was back with Columbia because I have a Mozart "Haydn" box from that year that was recorded in 1962 and released in 1963. I've got some Mendelssohn (1963) and Schubert from around this time as well, though, interestingly all of these were issued on Epic rather than Columbia Masterworks. Anybody know why that might be?

I also wondered why the split with Columbia happened in 1957 and have thought that aside from the obvious answer (money), it may have had something to do with the Juilliard's desire to record standard repertoire and the fact that Columbia had long been committed to the Budapest String Quartet in Mozart, Haydn, Beethoven, etc. For the first decade or so of its existence, the Juilliard was really known as a contemporary music group. Its first recording project was the Bartok cycle, which was issued in 1950, and it was followed by Second Viennese recordings of all four Schoenberg quartets, plus Berg Op. 3, Webern Op. 5 and other new stuff by Milhaud, William Bergsma and surely others. Since the first RCAs were Mozart and Haydn and the quartet started what appeared to be the germ of a Beethoven cycle, perahps the standard rep. issue had become a source of conflict with Columbia.

On the other hand, there's a fabulous 1953 LP by the Juilliard that couples Mozart's No. 20, K. 499 and No. 21, K. 575. But then, maybe that was just a one-off to prove that the Juilliard could play mainstream literature as well as the contemporary stuff.

Maybe nobody cares about this stuff but me, but I find it interesting.

Here's something else: The back of that Mozart LP lists some previous Juilliard recordings and one is the Ravel with a catalog number of 2202; another is the Berg "Lyric Suite" (2148). These appear to be 10-inch LPs. I've never seen nor heard these and they've never been reissued to my knowledge. Some Googling turned up the Ravel for sale but not the Berg. Anybody know anything more about these recordings?

Obsessively,

MS

Edited January 28, 2008 by Mark Stryker

[Olie Brice]

An old thread but wanted to thank Larry & Mark for this - been having my mind blown by these Juilliard recordings in recent days, after coming across this looking for something else... astonishing playing!  Even listening via crappy youtube compression I'm hearing things I've never heard before in pieces I know well, as well as having to completely re-evaluate stuff I wasn't previously into - thanks!  Will definitely pick up the Testament CDs

 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Olie Brice

[soulpope]

2 hours ago, Olie Brice said:

An old thread but wanted to thank Larry & Mark for this - been having my mind blown by these Juilliard recordings in recent days, after coming across this looking for something else... astonishing playing!  Even listening via crappy youtube compression I'm hearing things I've never heard before in pieces I know well, as well as having to completely re-evaluate stuff I wasn't previously into - thanks!  Will definitely pick up the Testament CDs

 

For an alternate reading try these perfermances from 1959 ....