Gigi Gryce

[Guest youmustbe]

Funny you should mention Leslie Caron...I was at a New Year's party many years ago and Peter Hall, the famous British director was there with his current wife, the opera singer Maria Ewing, who was the spitting image of his first wife, Leslie Caron! I guess that was his type. Maria was sexy lady and a good opera singer for awhile. I think she did the last scene in Salome in the nude...but a lot of my friends yelled 'Put it back on'...She had gotten older, alas!

[Guest Bill Barton]

Not every Negro jazz musician was a genius! He was okay, nothing special.

I like a lot of obscure jazz musicians, part of the charrm of being a jazz lover.

But geez, let's get real! Gigi Gryce?!!

With all that's going on in the world and in America today, we're arguing about Gigi Gryce?

Well, I didn't notice anybody arguing...

And I also don't recall that anybody called him a "genius."

Personally, my vote still is cast for him being a good to very good player, a superb composer/arranger and a canny businessman.

[rdavenport]

I played those Prestige albums the other day, inspired by this thread. I bought them after hearing the Howard McGhee/Tal Farlow Blue Note, and the Art Farmer "Met Gryce" and "Featuring Gigi Gryce" albums.

I like the Richard Williams quintet albums very much ("Rat Race Blues" is my favourite), but I just got the impression he was running out of ideas by this time, evidenced by recording very old standards ("Frankie And Johnny", "Lover Man" and "Summertime") or rehashing his old tunes like "Minority" and "Nica's Tempo".

Much of the more interesting material seems to be written by others (I don't have the albums to hand but I'm sure "Blues In Bloom", "Monday Through Sunday" and "Strange Feelin" aren't Gryce's compositions).

Would I be right in thinking that those three albums were his last recordings? I'm pretty sure they were all recorded in the same year, though don't quote me on that.

[AllenLowe]

"Not every Negro jazz musician was a genius! He was okay, nothing special."

I find this to be a racist statement; certainly this forum has never shown any Crow Jim tendencies and is very fair and balanced in its assessments, regardless of race - and the statement is offensive by the very fact that NO ONE has given the slightest hint at feeling that Gryce is a genius (or talented) by reason of race - so the complete non-sequetorian aspect of the above declaration is even more offensive -take the race chip off of your shoulder -

[Guest youmustbe]

Bullshit! Gigi was a Negro musician. That's what people that now call themselves Black, or Afro-American called themselves. when he was alive. Not only called themselves, but were insulted if they they were referred to as 'Black'. I made that mistake in early 60's several times.

Stanley Crouch refers to his own racial identity still as Negro. Is he a racist?

The uncomfortable fact is that almost all of the people who love Jazz or the Blues are White! Even more uncomfotable is the fact that Jazz and Blues have been promoted, recorded, written about by almost exclusively by White people. How many Black people give a shit about Hank Mobley?

Just the way it is. I don't have a problem with it. Obviously you do.

[Larry Kart]

Bullshit! Gigi was a Negro musician. That's what people that now call themselves Black, or Afro-American called themselves. when he was alive. Not only called themselves, but were insulted if they they were referred to as 'Black'. I made that mistake in early 60's several times.

Stanley Crouch refers to his own racial identity still as Negro. Is he a racist?

The uncomfortable fact is that almost all of the people who love Jazz or the Blues are White! Even more uncomfotable is the fact that Jazz and Blues have been promoted, recorded, written about by almost exclusively by White people. How many Black people give a shit about Hank Mobley?

Just the way it is. I don't have a problem with it. Obviously you do.

What you wrote, and what I have some problem with, is the second sentence of this: "I've heard a lot of his records as a leader and sideman and they're really not much in the scheme of things. Unless you're white and have a thing for neglected Negro jazz musicians."

What that says pretty clearly is that the only reason those who think that Gryce is more than "not much in the scheme of things" could have for thinking so is that they are "white and have a thing for neglected Negro jazz musicians." The phrase "unless you're white" doesn't seem to leave much wiggle room. My feelings about Gryce, which are that he's a talented composer and a fair-to-middling soloist, don't have anything to do with his sounding like a "Negro." In fact, if you'd played a Gryce recording for me way back when, before I knew who he was, I might have guessed that he was a blood brother of Hal McKusick (who IMO is a more interesting player, in a somewhat similar, rather delicate-agile vein).

On the other hand, I don't think you're a racist for saying what you did -- just someone who's out to provoke.

[Kalo]

"...rather delicate-agile vein."

Damn, Larry, but you have a way with words!

[Larry Kart]

Thanks. And McKusick had a way with the alto. Excellent clarinetist, too.

[BruceH]

You'd rather we argue about Leslie Caron?

Always kind of shrug-inducing, for me.

[Kalo]

Thanks. And McKusick had a way with the alto. Excellent clarinetist, too.

Recently, what with the firesales on OJCs, I've cottoned to McKusick, too. That Triple Exposure is a heck of an album (Eddie Costa never hurts!).

[Kalo]

You'd rather we argue about Leslie Caron?

Always kind of shrug-inducing, for me.

I shrugged, too, for many years, but in the past few years I've succumbed. She improved with age.

Perhaps more appropriate for the film thread.

Edited December 29, 2008 by Kalo

[AllenLowe]

the racist aspect of that prior statement, to me, was that he was trying to say that the only reason we were even considering Gryce as an important musician was because of his blackness - something which is more than arguably racist, I think - if would be non-racist if someone had said, prior to his posting it, something like, "gee, Gryce is great because of his blackness which allows him access to the essence of American jazz cum soul, which rests in the depths of his negritude." (geez, that sounds like Stanley Crouch) - Since no one did any such thing, his whole assumption of such takes on a new and unfortunate light -

[papsrus]

Just ordered the Jazz Lab sessions, and have 'Rat Race Blues' and 'Sayin' Somethin' !' on the way as well, so I'm set to immerse myself a bit. Looking forward to it.

Nice thread (mostly)

[Guest Bill Barton]

I second the vote for the Byrd/Gryce Jazz Lab albums.

And then there is his album on Signal (later Savoy) as well as "When Famer met Gryce".

A particular favorite of mine (though slighted by some) is his work with Clifford Brown on those 1953 Paris sessions.

Gryce always had a knack of coming up with very ear-catching arrangements.

"Easy Living" is - pardon the hyperbole - a masterpiece. It's not from the Paris sessions but is from the same time period. Nice to see this thread resurfacing...

[fasstrack]

I've been listening to the excellent archived programs by "Ghost Of Miles" of Gigi Gryce. I did a search to see if there has been any substantial discussion of Gigi in the past. While there are a number of threads, very little serious discussion. Underappreciated artist? I was curious because only recently I've become interested in his recordings. After listening to David's program, my interest is peaked. How about it guys? I'm very interested in reading your thoughts. Thanks.

Sure. He was a genuine talent. Took Bird somewhere and a nice writer, too. He got rained on when he tried to control his own product vis-a-vis publishing, he with a few others---I forget who. I should read Noal's book. But black guys didn't dare do that back then. Good for him, but it seems he paid the price.

[Dan Gould]

Listening to Stompin' Volume 20 (great Brit series of un or underheralded blues/r&b players) and came across Freddie Mitchell, Preachin' on the Rock n Roll label.  Killer sax over romping big band, and surprise, surprise, the notes say "Fellow Florida-born jazzman Gigi Gryce's modernish Preachin is a well-chosen vehicle ..."  I couldn't find anything in Rat Race Blues to verify, not even sure if he has credit for a tune called "Preachin'" - does anyone know?  There is a label reproduction in the liners but its in a field of them and hard to read. Might even say 'G G Gryce'.  Supposedly the label had one release, and it was incorporated in 1955 in NYC, that would fit I think.

Anyone? Bueller?