Great Sonny Stitt

[MomsMobley]

Don't be a knucklehead Sangria-- my black social values and experience are at least the equal and quite likely the superior of yours, if you wanna get Stiff-like competitive about it. Oooh, maybe next time Sonny will "win"! (But he can't beat Art Pepper or Stan Getz.) (Schildkraut or Wardell Gray.)

But the records are not that, are they? You wrap the Prestige, Roost, Verve etc etc toot toot toot too (repeat 1000x fast but NOT as fast as Bird let alone the ideas) in dark creamy thighs, crazy stylin' hair both processed and natural, bright primary colors and plaid-- yeah, then it makes a difference and Sonny is fine enough 'mood' music. Won't make you think too much when only thing you REALLY care about is getting the pink part in.

That you can pretend Sonny lived in a world where, say, Anton Webern didn't exist only reveals your own (projected) ig'nance and/or anti-intellectualism, not that of professional jazz musicians/composers of the mid-20th century.

But you know what too? Sonny was NOT that popular 'hood either, which much preferred Jimmy Smith and his various rivals/epigones, say, for all sorts of valid reasons.

Mere "exuberance"-- not infrequently with laced with malevolence-- isn't that entertaining, which is why Roy Eldridge ** SHREDS ** Stiff at every turn but of course Roy being Roy, he does much else too. Stiff just stands there acting like he had 'reed trouble.'

To pretend that Sonny's mere ** functioning ** is some kind of greater triumph or that, outside of a specific context, its value sustains itself is silly.

Johnny Griffin coulda been Sonny Stiff but he was too smart to try.

Booker Ervin coulda been Sonny Stiff he knew it was a dead-end.

etc.

Thank you.

***

Larry, I did not hear Sonny & Mal, which combination I would not expect much of (though Mal comping >>>>> most pianist's careers, Gene Harris and Jarrett included) but if you say Sonny got over himself to LISTEN, think and play-- OK. He had the technique and stamina (which isn't the same as concentration, of course).

Bolded emphasis added

At best Stitt is a 'functional' player, good for a gin mill or strip club but otherwise unnecessary and usually annoying.

Sonny Stitt is just filling space, over and over and over and over and over again w/ no greater point than merely doing so, making the next record or gig-- a living, fine, but not our LIFE.

If I can take the liberty of reconpurposing "gin mill or strip club" into " blue collar Black social venues" (which I think I fairly can), then...there you have it.

Condemnation for not meeting expectations which were never relevant - or in place - in the first place.

I'm not a "big" Stitt fan, far from it, but to condemn him for not being something he was probably constitutionally (or shall I play clever hit-and-run-record-date-producer and say Con-Stitt-Tutionally) unable to be, much less desirous of, that seems to me to be just a little...silly.

Stitt was a drifter, a gunslinger, a wayfaring stranger, etc etc etc., not a self-aware "artist". That's probably why a lot of people find him annoying, and also why quite a lot of people dig him so much. I think you should evaluate his work in the arena at least as much in terms of the arena as you do the work. It's an arena that is "relevant" to a lot of lives, actually, even if they are not "ours" in experience, aim, and/or outcome.

Was his life a waste? Depends on what you consider life, and what you consider wasting it.

[Larry Kart]

Larry, is that Stitt session the one that has been described as with Barry Harris?

Yes. It's obviously not Harris, and pretty clearly the R. Lewis Trio. In particular, Eldee Young's bass solos are quite distinctive. I'm far from a Lewis fan, but they're locked in behind Stitt.

[JSngry]

maybe the only possible truth is partial.

I'm more inclined to think that the only possible understanding of truth is partial, although, hopefully knowingly so, or at least as much as possible.

For sure, though, the disallowance of a fluid ambiguity ain't gonna get you there, and The Truth (Partial Or Otherwise) About Sonny Stitt is nothing if not fluidly ambiguous...

Don't be a knucklehead Sangria-- my black social values and experience are at least the equal and quite likely the superior of yours, if you wanna get Stiff-like competitive about it. Oooh, maybe next time Sonny will "win"! (But he can't beat Art Pepper or Stan Getz.) (Schildkraut or Wardell Gray.)

But the records are not that, are they? You wrap the Prestige, Roost, Verve etc etc toot toot toot too (repeat 1000x fast but NOT as fast as Bird let alone the ideas) in dark creamy thighs, crazy stylin' hair both processed and natural, bright primary colors and plaid-- yeah, then it makes a difference and Sonny is fine enough 'mood' music. Won't make you think too much when only thing you REALLY care about is getting the pink part in.

That you can pretend Sonny lived in a world where, say, Anton Webern didn't exist only reveals your own (projected) ig'nance and/or anti-intellectualism, not that of professional jazz musicians/composers of the mid-20th century.

But you know what too? Sonny was NOT that popular 'hood either, which much preferred Jimmy Smith and his various rivals/epigones, say, for all sorts of valid reasons.

Mere "exuberance"-- not infrequently with laced with malevolence-- isn't that entertaining, which is why Roy Eldridge ** SHREDS ** Stiff at every turn but of course Roy being Roy, he does much else too. Stiff just stands there acting like he had 'reed trouble.'

To pretend that Sonny's mere ** functioning ** is some kind of greater triumph or that, outside of a specific context, its value sustains itself is silly.

Johnny Griffin coulda been Sonny Stiff but he was too smart to try.

Booker Ervin coulda been Sonny Stiff he knew it was a dead-end.

etc.

Thank you.

***

The longer I live, the more I realise that common people living willfully common lives is nowhere near as much a joke and/or waste as common people thinking that trying to live an uncommon live will somehow make them Uncommon People.

[MomsMobley]

Buck up, son, you'll get there-- and the more you quote Waylon Jennings the better for all of us.

Sonny Stiff Love Of The Common People

someday you'll discover Earl Hooker (country guitarist) and Bobby Bare (blues singer) and really have your wig blown.

Sonny Stiff Long Black Limousine

Thank you.

The longer I live, the more I realise that common people living willfully common lives is nowhere near as much a joke and/or waste as common people thinking that trying to live an uncommon live will somehow make them Uncommon People.

[JSngry]

Q.E.D.

[AllenLowe]

I like Earl Hooker.

Funny Stitt story, told to me by Bobby Buster, an organist I used to work with in New Haven who worked a lot with Stitt - Stitt would switch horns a lot and didn't want to transpose, so they'd end up playing things like Body and Soul in G Flat if he decided to do it on alto. Drove the rhythm section nuts,

[Chuck Nessa]

Not the drummer.

[danasgoodstuff]

I'm sure it bugged the drummer if it fucked up the bass plaer's time, which it probably did, although I do get Stitt's thinking here - that's why i play C-melody, I wonder if ornette's ever played one?

The notion that being even a smidge less than the greatest genius of whatever ever is somehow a crime is the worst excuse for an idea ever...

[jeffcrom]

Not the drummer.

Sorry for going even further off topic, and pardon me if I've told this one before. But this reminds me of a story in John Chilton's biography of Sidney Bechet. Bechet was playing a trio gig with a pianist and a drummer. A fan came up and requested "Body and Soul," handing Sidney five dollars. After the trio played the song, Bechet gave the piano player a dollar and put the rest in his own pocket. The drummer indignantly asked, "What about me? I played it, too!" Bechet pointed to the pianist and said, "No, we played 'Body and Soul.' You just went 'swish, swish' like you'd do on any slow song."

[MomsMobley]

dona, Sonny Stiff is A LOT-- waaaaaay-- further than a 'smidge' from genius. Save those wacky but endearing Varitone sides and Larry's memories of Mal, I daresay Sonny brings ** NOTHING ** to the table but a lot air and decent finger speed when he was on. But save the absence of an alternative (a la strip club or gin mill), there's NO situation when Sonny is even the "best" at anything; that he could, at times, transmute a bad attitude into brusque energy is useful but not impressive.

I was listening to some later Percy France earlier one phrase from Percy slays entire Stiff albums/concerts.

Again, not that it is a fight but if I want won I'll take Sonny Liston every time.

Agree with Allen, however, Earl Hooker was awesome -->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szya2It2MqY

The notion that being even a smidge less than the greatest genius of whatever ever is somehow a crime is the worst excuse for an idea ever...

[John L]

I think that there are some similarities between Sonny Stitt and Earl Hooker. Both had monster technical abilities that allowed them to compensate for a certain lack of original ideas by sheer brute force. Both can be very enjoyable if you take them for what they are, which is quite a lot, and not what they are not.

[king ubu]

I think that there are some similarities between Sonny Stitt and Earl Hooker. Both had monster technical abilities that allowed them to compensate for a certain lack of original ideas by sheer brute force. Both can be very enjoyable if you take them for what they are, which is quite a lot, and not what they are not.

Not good enough for the hipster police - try harder!

[JETman]

Am I the only one here who thinks it's just slightly more than amusing to listen to two white guys argue about which one has the deeper black experience?

[A Lark Ascending]

Take cover!

[Quasimado]

dona, Sonny Stiff is A LOT-- waaaaaay-- further than a 'smidge' from genius. Save those wacky but endearing Varitone sides and Larry's memories of Mal, I daresay Sonny brings ** NOTHING ** to the table but a lot air and decent finger speed when he was on. But save the absence of an alternative (a la strip club or gin mill), there's NO situation when Sonny is even the "best" at anything; that he could, at times, transmute a bad attitude into brusque energy is useful but not impressive.

After the put-downs I listened to some Sonny (Sittin' in with the OP Trio ) and I'm sorry Clem/ Brian /Mom etc, but that is some heavy alto shit, and demands Respect at least (which I thought was valued in Your Culture) ...

Q

[AllenLowe]

well, I'd almost forgotten about this, but around 1976 or so I ended up telling Sonny Stitt off in the dressing room of the Jazz Workshop in Boston, while Pat Martino (who opened for him) was sitting watching, Sonny was a prick, and accused me of dishonesty, of ripping off musicians because I didn't pay them for interviews. Pissed me off, even though I was scared and only 21, I told him he was full of shit. It felt really good.

Edited October 8, 2011 by AllenLowe

[Mark Stryker]

But save the absence of an alternative (a la strip club or gin mill), there's NO situation when Sonny is even the "best" at anything

Disagree. From the mid '50s to early '70s, Stitt at his most inspired, relaxed and presumably sober ("Personal Appearance." "Constellation," etc.) spoke a purely distilled and charged bebop melodic-harmonic language with as much excitement,verve, joie de vivre and authority as anyone. If you want to say this is simply lick playing at a high craft level, well, ok, but there are important distinctions to be made: When Stitt is really on it transcends, reaching a rarified level of sheer elation with enough surprises that it never fails to elevate the spirit (at least my spirit.) I'd put Stitt's very best work in a class with, say, Dexter or Moody's bebop-and-roses blowing sessions -- though there's no question that Dexter and Moody are in the end greater artists, though, come to think of it, they are also more or less lick players too. Also, when Stitt made those sides with Bud in 49/50 there were few -- any? -- other saxophonists beyond Bird as fluent in the idiom at that point.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Mark Stryker

[Larry Kart]

Am I the only one here who thinks it's just slightly more than amusing to listen to two white guys argue about which one has the deeper black experience?

But Moms is a black woman -- a very funny one, too,

[TedR]

Allen's previous post reminds me of Miles' interactions with Bird at various times. Also after reading this thread I now realize I suffer from some serious street cred envy.

[JSngry]

Am I the only one here who thinks it's just slightly more than amusing to listen to two white guys argue about which one has the deeper black experience?

Reread, please. It was only one white guy making any such "claim".

[AllenLowe]

don't worry because ultimately, unlike Moms, I'm just a white kid from the suburbs. Though I too have lost a lot of teeth.

[MomsMobley]

Ladies & Gentlemen:

re: the race issue, it is JSngry who snidely introduced it, please see post #8--

If I can take the liberty of reconpurposing "gin mill or strip club" into " blue collar Black social venues" (which I think I fairly can), then...there you have it.

Dude, you can't take the liberty-- you don't have the chops!

But like so so so much Sonny, your tongue/fingers move faster than your mind, both in the moment and later "repose."

Again, I assert

* Sonny's much ballyhooed "energy" and "combativeness" is often impotent rage at Bird and Lester/Hawk et al.

* That even if Mark Stryker is correct-- and I take his advisements seriously and will report back if chastened-- that exceptional but slim % of Sonny's too vast output doesn't merit the attention of the lesser known (with respect to their own careers) grottoes of Clifford Jordan, Richie Kamuca, Billy Harper et al.

* Tomorrow I'm going to see Ira Sullivan-- his album and that of Paul Geremia are the best white boy blues on Flying Fish

* Correction: Earl Hooker was a HUGE innovator!! Pls don't be confused by ** his imitators ** and a confusing solo discography.

* "The darker the berry, the sweeter the meat." -- Moms Mobley

Edited October 8, 2011 by MomsMobley

[marcello]

Sonny did record a lot of barely passable / auto-pilot music, but when he was on, the sheer force of his spirit ( mean or otherwise) and virtuosity was enough to win the day. I think if his volume of recordings was say, limited to a half of dozen of his best, this discussion would take a different direction.

Edited October 8, 2011 by marcello

[AllenLowe]

Earl Hooker, btw, was named by both Buddy Guy and BB King as the greatest guitarist they ever heard - there's some nice Hooker around, but I have a feeling none of it really reflects what he could really do, based on certain testimony. As a recording artist, he was somewhat deluded, always searching for gimmicks and hits, so that probably hurt his output.

[TedR]

Whether it's entertaining or annoying, that's been Mom's/clem's main rails from the beginning as summed up in his last post: "....Sonny's (Lovano's, Vandermark's, Ware's) too vast output doesn't merit the attention of the lesser known....". Not a bad message really. I'll check out some of my Jordans and Kamucas while wishing I had more (any) Billy Harper. As an ex-Floridian I'm a big fan of Ira. And I still love my 2 "exceptional" Stitt cds.

Edited October 8, 2011 by TedR