Great Sonny Stitt

[TedR]

Moms=clem<<<<<<<<Sonny Stitt, Joe Lovano, et al.

[AllenLowe]

The first tenor I ever owned had a Varitone connection, which I never used.

btw, listening to some Bebop Boy recordings with Stitt from '46. I actually like early Stitt best; like with a lot of the beboppers, there's a freshness and challenge to the music in those early days that eventually faded, especially by the '60s.

Also want to mention that Leeway, above, is a groovy cat. And this was confirmed by my old friend and running buddy Emmett Hardy.

[Leeway]

The first tenor I ever owned had a Varitone connection, which I never used.

btw, listening to some Bebop Boy recordings with Stitt from '46. I actually like early Stitt best; like with a lot of the beboppers, there's a freshness and challenge to the music in those early days that eventually faded, especially by the '60s.

Also want to mention that Leeway, above, is a groovy cat. And this was confirmed by my old friend and running buddy Emmett Hardy.

That's funny: I never heard him mention you.

[golfcrazy1984]

From a saxophonists perspective, he is one of the most technically gifted players ever. Especially on alto. Tone wise, alto is a little thin "up top" and his tenor is rooted in a more Lester Young sound. My favorite Stitt recording is with Oscar Peterson, "Sonny Stitt Sits In With the Oscar Peterson Trio". Great technique, repetitive musically. Johnny Hodges, for example, could say more with one chorus of blues than Stitt could say during 24 choruses of Cherokee--in my opinion.

I too agree with Allen Lowe about Stitt's earlier recordings sounding more inspired.

Interesting thread so far!

[MomsMobley]

Oh, I'll go further than Jazznut and say Stiff might have some technical gifts but he also worked hard at various points too.

To what end is HIGHLY debatable, however and admiration for Stiff's technique is not the same as respect for his art, tho' in working musicians the two understandably blur. (We can extend this to Oscar Peterson too but I might not have the stomach.)

Thus contemporary ofay's ridiculous overpraise of an absolute NOTHING-- a vacuous whorl of anti-music/anti-matter-- like Joe Lovano.

If Jazznut tells me he likes Lovano I'll believe it, and understand, but the rest of you-- I don't see how you can listen to Lockjaw, Rollins, Ayler, Roscoe, pre-lost it Pharaoh, Clifford Jordan, Getz, Kamuca, Warne, etc etc an find ANYTHING of ** musical ** value in Lovano. I don't give a shit about his hats or his technical competency.

And of course Hank Mobley, who whatever he did take from Sonny used about a 10000x better/more thoughtfully while losing little of the "brawn."

Joe Lovano is the death of music.

re: the god Earl Hooker, I think it's important to listen to his sideman gigs as well the not fully/comfortably conceived solo sides.

I may need to start a Bluesway is (Mostly) MY Way thread soon, hmmmmmmm.

Ya'll Wanna See Jazz Hat? This Is Jazz Hat

[brownie]

Moms, I have no problem with you going after Lovano...

... but you'd better watch out if you go after Zoot

[golfcrazy1984]

Oh, I'll go further than Jazznut and say Stiff might have some technical gifts but he also worked hard at various points too.

To what end is HIGHLY debatable, however and admiration for Stiff's technique is not the same as respect for his art, tho' in working musicians the two understandably blur. (We can extend this to Oscar Peterson too but I might not have the stomach.)

Thus contemporary ofay's ridiculous overpraise of an absolute NOTHING-- a vacuous whorl of anti-music/anti-matter-- like Joe Lovano.

If Jazznut tells me he likes Lovano I'll believe it, and understand, but the rest of you-- I don't see how you can listen to Lockjaw, Rollins, Ayler, Roscoe, pre-lost it Pharaoh, Clifford Jordan, Getz, Kamuca, Warne, etc etc an find ANYTHING of ** musical ** value in Lovano. I don't give a shit about his hats or his technical competency.

And of course Hank Mobley, who whatever he did take from Sonny used about a 10000x better/more thoughtfully while losing little of the "brawn."

Joe Lovano is the death of music.

re: the god Earl Hooker, I think it's important to listen to his sideman gigs as well the not fully/comfortably conceived solo sides.

I may need to start a Bluesway is (Mostly) MY Way thread soon, hmmmmmmm.

Ya'll Wanna See Jazz Hat? This Is Jazz Hat

I DO NOT own any Joe Lovano. I'm 27 and am sure my peers own a lot of his recordings. For me, I am sooooo hooked on Lockjaw, CANNONBALL, Hank Mobley, Webster, Lester, and the Basie Band (esp. 50s-early 60s) and any Ellington band pre 1970 (and many more true artists). I haven't had time to branch out...yet. I'm still absorbing all of that stuff! I do have some recordings from Joshua Redman, James Carter and Ted Nash that come to mind. But out of 1000s of recordings that I have (CDs and LPs) the VAST majority AREN'T even living musicians...is that sad?

I went and saw the Lincoln Center Jazz Orhcestra (and Wynton) when they were in town and it was good, ok...Joe Temperly sounded great as always. But let's say I could go back in time and hear 1959 Basie or Ellington. Same seat in the same hall. I would have been disappointed and let down. Perhaps I'm making my favorite musicians out to be better than they really are, putting them on a pedestal...?

[Larry Kart]

I went and saw the Lincoln Center Jazz Orhcestra (and Wynton) when they were in town and it was good, ok...Joe Temperly sounded great as always. But let's say I could go back in time and hear 1959 Basie or Ellington. Same seat in the same hall. I would have been disappointed and let down. Perhaps I'm making my favorite musicians out to be better than they really are, putting them on a pedestal...?

Why would you have been disappointed by 1959 Basie or Ellington if you could have gone back in time? Or do I misunderstand what you're saying? Seems like from what you said before that your likely reaction to 1959 Basie or Ellington would have been the opposite.

[Mark Stryker]

Free associative digression: Never underestimate the value of a good hat.

[Larry Kart]

Moms, I have no problem with you going after Lovano...

... but you'd better watch out if you go after Zoot

OK -- I will. Something happened to/changed in Zoot in 1957-8 IMO, and (with occasional exceptions) he was never quite the same. The lovely freshness/zest/continuity of Zoot on, say, that fine Dawn album with Brookmeyer and and Gus Johnson or his quartet album on Argo was not to be heard again. I still listen to later Zoot but can't help but notice the difference. I would like to run across someone who knew Zoot well and who agrees with me on this who could speculate about the "why" of what I believe happened. Drinking a whole lot probably didn't help, but that alone -- probably not.

[JSngry]

He played great w/Goodman in Moscow,..'62?

Maybe the whole Ornette/Trane/60s Sonny thing made him feel old-fashioned to himself and he wasn't pre-inclined to do anything about it. Just a guess.

[Larry Kart]

I'm thinking that the change I hear had to do with him becoming a NYC studio regular in '58-9 (a very demanding life that not everyone can handle) BTW, I've found over the years (Jim excepted no doubt) that firm defenders of latter-day Zoot tend not to be that familiar with earlier Zoot. A good test case would be to place his playing on the Mulligan Sextet's "California Concerts" album alongside his work three or so years later with the Mulligan Concert Jazz Band. To me, the former sounds gorgeously fresh and fluid (as does a whole lot of Zoot from that period and before), while the latter sounds rather forced and pre-packaged, as though he were thumbing through a book of Zoot-like phrases. The continuity factor is ebbing away, and Zoot without continuity...

[Dan Gould]

Sometimes I'm happy my ears aren't that great. I can't hear any substantial diminishment, and there are surely some great recordings he made late in his career.

[TedR]

Some outstanding Joe Lovano IMO can be heard on Peter Erskine's Sweet Soul. But the "keep flappin those fingers" quote reminds me of a concert at the Bop Stop (when it was in the Cleveland warehouse district) with Lovano and his wife. My brother kept commenting how his fingers were all over the keys but not much of interest coming out. And when they tried that godawful perfect pitch singing (Irene Aebi influence?)in unison with sax, people were looking around at each other. Granted the acoustics were poor but we agreed this is what can turn people off the music. I admire Joe Lovano's sincerity and commitment to the music he plays but, as a Clevelander born and bred, I wish I could like his playing more than I do.

One aside: If Joe Lovano is really a "hero" to the music school kids wouldn't we see more kids wearing those cool hats? In Florida there were a lot of Pat Metheny haircuts among the U of Miami music school students(guitarists anyway).

(Edited to say I started my post after reading Mark Stryker's post#84 and kept getting interrupted before I finished. Sorry about interrupting the Zoot discussion.)

Edited October 11, 2011 by TedR

[JSngry]

I think Zoot definitely played "fresher" earlier on, and also hear a certain "deadening" as the years went by, but..life does that to people at least as often as it doesn't, ya' know? When it does, I'm more interested in hearing if the guy knows that it has (good) or if he doesn't (sometime better, sometimes worse, but usually pretty "spectacular" one way or the other) and Zoot...usually it sounds like he knows but doesn't care, so yeah, you get a lot of "Zoot" w/o there always being Zoot involved.

But sometimes...there's a Pat Williams Verve side where he's featured on "Hey Jude" of all things, and the guy...he's waaaaay out of tune on it, which is odd for him, and you can hear him thinking bad things about life to himself with every note he plays, but the funny thing is - he swings his ass off. And to me, that's when I like me some Zoot, when he just goes ahead and swings his ass off. That he could do so on a Pat Williams take on a Beatles tune on an album that is likewise full of nothing that he probably felt any affinity to whatsoever, well, that's what happens when you drink too much and don't really engage outside of your own world. Sometimes you just start giggling at shit and it's all funny once you do.

Edited October 11, 2011 by JSngry

[MomsMobley]

I love peak Zoot (inc. "Blues & Haikus") but he lost his nerve. It was a combination of factors: studio hackwork, Coltrane/Coleman/comeback Sonny/chameleon Getz, Dallas '63, 'Nam. While he had moments later, he certainly didn't mature as his ability suggested he could.

Larry, speaking of continuity, take a week if you have it and re-read "Gravity's Rainbow." It also shows why no Stitt "Cherokee" ever came close to Barnet or Bird.

[brownie]

Dammit, there is always someone here to spoil the fun...

Zoot did change (as most people do) over the years but on good nights - and there were many - he was at the top of his game. Not THE Best but a very very enjoyable musician who knew his values and his harmonies.

The albums he made for Pablo with Jimmy Rowles rate among the most relaxed and ear-pleasing recordings to be found this side of Paradise.

Some of the best memories of live music I keep are the two evenings I spent at the Village Vanguard in the late '70s when he appeared there with Rowles (and George Mraz).

Where is today's Zoot so that I can go to a club and enjoy the proceedings?

[ejp626]

Dammit, there is always someone here to spoil the fun...

Where is today's Zoot so that I can go to a club and enjoy the proceedings?

For me, it would be someone like Eric Alexander, esp. if he is playing with Harold Mabern. I've seen this combo 3 or so times.

[BillF]

Dammit, there is always someone here to spoil the fun...

Where is today's Zoot so that I can go to a club and enjoy the proceedings?

For me, it would be someone like Eric Alexander, esp. if he is playing with Harold Mabern. I've seen this combo 3 or so times.

I don't hear Zoot in Eric's playing, but I do in Scott Hamilton's.

[Larry Kart]

Larry, speaking of continuity, take a week if you have it and re-read "Gravity's Rainbow." It also shows why no Stitt "Cherokee" ever came close to Barnet or Bird.

Charlie Barnet?!!

[Larry Kart]

I think Zoot definitely played "fresher" earlier on, and also hear a certain "deadening" as the years went by, but..life does that to people at least as often as it doesn't, ya' know?

But then there's the career of his running buddy Al Cohn, who was very good in the '50s and '60s and then just got better and better and stronger and stronger, at times almost amazingly so (especially rhythmically), right up until the very end and without undergoing any profound stylistic change or absorbing any "advanced" influences. Thus it's not like I'm holding Zoot up to some imaginary or elitist standard.

[Chuck Nessa]

Alcohol.

[J.A.W.]

I think Zoot definitely played "fresher" earlier on, and also hear a certain "deadening" as the years went by, but..life does that to people at least as often as it doesn't, ya' know?

But then there's the career of his running buddy Al Cohn, who was very good in the '50s and '60s and then just got better and better and stronger and stronger, at times almost amazingly so (especially rhythmically), right up until the very end and without undergoing any profound stylistic change or absorbing any "advanced" influences. Thus it's not like I'm holding Zoot up to some imaginary or elitist standard.

I agree with Larry about Al Cohn. I like many of his 1950s recordings, but I think he was much better and indeed stronger in his last 10-15 years. Pity most of his later stuff is not available on CD.

Edited October 11, 2011 by J.A.W.

[MomsMobley]

absolutely-- not for the playing per se but-- and you might be a little young to remember this firsthand-- but for its real-time import, both as 1939 hit and cultural signifier.

studio

"live" (on film)

Sonny Stitt's just another finger flapping gasbag by comparison.

And if other "Cherokee"s we must, I'll start with Bud

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHoQkxQuHFY

Brownie--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y6U0TD3z34

Johnny Griffin--

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XIPDG2GBIs

But Barnet and Bird reign supreme, Max too, of course.

Edited October 11, 2011 by MomsMobley

[golfcrazy1984]

I went and saw the Lincoln Center Jazz Orhcestra (and Wynton) when they were in town and it was good, ok...Joe Temperly sounded great as always. But let's say I could go back in time and hear 1959 Basie or Ellington. Same seat in the same hall. I would have been disappointed and let down. Perhaps I'm making my favorite musicians out to be better than they really are, putting them on a pedestal...?

Why would you have been disappointed by 1959 Basie or Ellington if you could have gone back in time? Or do I misunderstand what you're saying? Seems like from what you said before that your likely reaction to 1959 Basie or Ellington would have been the opposite.

Hi Larry,

Sorry for the confusion. Hopefully, my likely reaction would have been quite the opposite. You know how they say, "anticipation's half the fun"? Well, maybe all of my listening, reading and research on these bands have made them better or bigger than they were during their day. I guess what I was trying to convey (in this instance), was, for a long time, I have regarded Ellington's and Basie's band from the late 50s as pure perfection based on the recordings. If I were to go back in time and actually HEAR them live, perhaps my perception might have changed. In short, maybe I would have been dissapointed by the bands...my expectations of what they could do might have been too high.

Does that make sense?

I mean I'm 27, I didn't get to hear all of the Giants of Jazz. I've heard Eric Alexander several time live and he is a great saxophonist, but I would still prefer to listen to Dexter or Coltrane. So with that said, if I took this time machine to see the Ellington band of the late 50s, I might say, "Oh, well this band is good, but man, that Blanton-Webster band was much better!"