England's Dreaming

[A Lark Ascending]

Around the time I started discovering jazz (mid-70s) I was also exploring classical (and folk, but that's another story). An almost 'Paul on the road to Damascus' scene one Sunday morning whilst being played a recording of Vaughan Williams' 5th Symphony/Tallis Fantasia set me off on a long obsession with 20thC English music.

My real enthusiams lie between Elgar and Tippett and I love wandering down the byways that lead through people like Alwyn, Moeran, Arnold, Bax and many more. Britten, Delius, Holst, Bridge etc are major stopping points en route. Though I've been listening quite a bit to Byrd and Talllis of late and am listening at this minute to a disc of Judith Weir's music.

I know this music has a cult following, one that has been nicely served in recent times by those record labels who realise that there is more to life than another Beethoven 5th - stand up Hyperion, Chandos, Naxos. Above all, all praise to Lyrita (currently enjoying a marvellous rebirth with new recordings and its full catalogue emerging on CD for the first time). When I first started listening it was still a bit of a guilty pleasure - too 'conservative', lyrical, nostalgic for most modernist ears. But it seems to be coming out of the shadows again.

I make no claims for it re: importance, significance, position in the grand hierarchy of what's considered 'great'. It just moves me constantly.

So, any other enthusiasts?

[tonym]

I too have been great affected by the beauty of 'English' classical music over the last year or so. I suppose my 'moment' was attending one of my wife's concerts which featured pieces by Grace Williams, Vaughan Williams and Elgar. I'd never heard the Tallis Variations before and was utterly gobsmacked at the simplicity yet emotion that was drawn from the theme. Since then i've managed to acquire the EMI/Haitink set of Vaughan Williams symphonies (No. 2 is on heavy rotation at present), lots of Bax chamber music (expertly recorded and well recommended on the Naxos label) and the complete Arnold symphonies --- a composer who I'd shied away from, dismissing it as 'film' music --- how wrong one can be!

During the week leading up to Remembrance Sunday back in 2006, I had the urge to go out and get Britten's War Requiem and came away with that and the Peter Grimes set.

I'm wanting to hear lots more: Frank Bridge is a name on various wish lists.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Try a bit of John Ireland. There was some on Lyrita. Glad to hear it's making a comeback.

MG

[A Lark Ascending]

I too have been great affected by the beauty of 'English' classical music over the last year or so. I suppose my 'moment' was attending one of my wife's concerts which featured pieces by Grace Williams, Vaughan Williams and Elgar. I'd never heard the Tallis Variations before and was utterly gobsmacked at the simplicity yet emotion that was drawn from the theme. Since then i've managed to acquire the EMI/Haitink set of Vaughan Williams symphonies (No. 2 is on heavy rotation at present), lots of Bax chamber music (expertly recorded and well recommended on the Naxos label) and the complete Arnold symphonies --- a composer who I'd shied away from, dismissing it as 'film' music --- how wrong one can be!

During the week leading up to Remembrance Sunday back in 2006, I had the urge to go out and get Britten's War Requiem and came away with that and the Peter Grimes set.

I'm wanting to hear lots more: Frank Bridge is a name on various wish lists.

Grace Williams is someone I've yet to listen to - there's some of her music on Lyrita.

Arnold is an enthusiasm of mine too - the 2nd and 5th Symphonies especially. A really tragic figure, largely ignored for writing approachable (yet frequently harrowing) music at a time when serialism was mandatory to be critically accepted in the UK. There's a bio by Anthony Meredith and Paul Harris that makes uncomfortable reading - his psychological breakdowns and terrible behaviour to those close to him. Decca recently put out some fine box sets of his music - I have the set of the concertos. (There's a TV doc too from the same source as the recent RVW)

Britten is amazing - I never really 'got' Wilfrid Owen until I heard the 'War Requiem'. The other operas are well worth exploring - I especially like 'Billy Budd', 'The Turn of the Screw', 'Death in Venice' and 'A Midsummer's Night's Dream'.

Frank Bridge is someone I took to heart in the 70s after hearing the Charles Groves EMI disc with 'Enter Spring' and 'The Sea' on it - the latter rich and romantic, the former showing much more contemporary influences but with a gorgeous main processional melody. The Hickox series of Bridge works on Chandos is probably the easiest way to get this music - fine performances.

I've never been able to get over something I read in a bio of John Ireland about him posting his laundry to someone! Bizarre! The ultimate impractical artist! However, some lovely stuff there too - I especially like his Piano Concerto.

E.J. Moeran's 'Symphony in G' is one not to miss - very influenced by Sibelius but with some very 'English' moments. There's a good Naxos recording.

Edited February 9, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[bvy]

I make no claims for it re: importance, significance, position in the grand hierarchy of what's considered 'great'. It just moves me constantly.

So, any other enthusiasts?

I'm still exploring the classical music world, and my tastes are all over the place, so I'm not ready to call myself an "enthusiast" of anything just yet. Still, I know what I like, and this doesn't seem out of character with what you're after here. It's high on my wish list. Are you familiar with Arnold Cooke? The Jabez and the Devil Suite is terrific.

[A Lark Ascending]

I make no claims for it re: importance, significance, position in the grand hierarchy of what's considered 'great'. It just moves me constantly.

So, any other enthusiasts?

I'm still exploring the classical music world, and my tastes are all over the place, so I'm not ready to call myself an "enthusiast" of anything just yet. Still, I know what I like, and this doesn't seem out of character with what you're after here. It's high on my wish list. Are you familiar with Arnold Cooke? The Jabez and the Devil Suite is terrific.

That one I don't know but it is very much on my radar!

In fact it was reading a short article in the March 'Gramophone' magazine about Britain's 'neglected composers' (where Cooke gets an enthusiastic mention) that ignited this thread.

(Incidentally, bvy, in my book 'tastes are all over the place' is a good thing!)

Edited February 9, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[Larry Kart]

I particularly admire Bridge (a wide stylistic range there; I prefer the later, prickly-modern, arguably even tormented Bridge of the Piano Concerto and "Enter Spring" to the earlier, more pastoral work, though that's fine of its kind), and was led to Ireland's piano music by the late pianist-composer Robert Help's enthusiasm for it.

Elgar to me is not of the Englishery strain, just (at his best) a great composer. Vaughan Williams at his best, too, though there the Englishery strain is present. Among those of a later generation than Bax et al., I've always found Alan Rawsthorne very interesting. Constant Lambert, too. (They were friends, and Rawsthorne married Lambert's widow.) Lambert's Concert for Piano and Nine Instruments is one of the most melancholic pieces of music I've ever heard, almost suicidal. My taste for Lennox Berkeley may be a weakness, but it's one that I've developed after hearing a work of his (maybe Symphony No. 1) on a Lyrita recording that was put out here on HNH in, I think, the early '80s. Judith Weir is excellent, but now we're into modernists or post-modernists -- a whole other book.

[A Lark Ascending]

I particularly admire Bridge (a wide stylistic range there; I prefer the later, prickly-modern, arguably even tormented Bridge of the Piano Concerto and "Enter Spring" to the earlier, more pastoral work, though that's fine of its kind), and was led to Ireland's piano music by the late pianist-composer Robert Help's enthusiasm for it.

I think I'd describe the earlier Bridge as more Victorian/Romantic; there's not much pastoralism there. You get a Debussy/Ravel influence in the 1910s in things like 'Summer'. But I'd agree Bridge came into his own after WWI - whether it was musical evolution or a reaction to the Great War is an unanswered question.

The Cello Sonata is one of his most intriguing pieces; two movement written either side of the divide. In the first you can still hear the dense growth of Edwardian potted palms; in the second you're in a much more bracing, spare world.

'Oration' - almost a cello concerto - is one of the great reactions to the Great War.

[Chuck Nessa]

Did I miss something, or has Finzi been ignored?

[Larry Kart]

Did I miss something, or has Finzi been ignored?

He has been, and there's fine music there, but Finzi's setting of Wordsworth's "Intimations of Mortality" when it gets rip-roaring exuberant, seems ludicrous to me, the English massed-choirs tradition at its most square and gallumphing. Try movements 5 and 12:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_m/103-25...p;x=12&y=17

On the other hand, putting Wordsworth to music probably isn't going to work, no matter what. The words not only don't need need music but seem to outright resist it. I can imagine an instrumental response to Wordsworth from a non-existent English Debussy.

[Larry Kart]

'Oration' - almost a cello concerto - is one of the great reactions to the Great War.

I forgot that one.

[A Lark Ascending]

Did I miss something, or has Finzi been ignored?

He has been, and there's fine music there, but Finzi's setting of Wordsworth's "Intimations of Mortality" when it gets rip-roaring exuberant, seems ludicrous to me, the English massed-choirs tradition at its most square and gallumphing.

Yes, 'square and gallumphing' is a perfect description of one of the weaknesses of a fair bit of English music, especially the choral stuff. Even RVW would fall foul of it at times, especially in some of his scherzos. It's a place where Britten really comes into his own - his music is much more lightly sprung, less dense.

I've never really got on with 'Intimations' - Finzi works best for me in his songs and shorter orchestral pieces. This disc - expanded from 1 1/2 original LPs - has some lovely music:

Elgar to me is not of the Englishery strain, just (at his best) a great composer

He usually sounds very English to me (probably for no other reason than the fact that his music is constantly used as a signal for English or Britishness by advertisers, political parties, TV producers etc). Where he differs from RVW, Holst or Howells, for example, is the lack of overt folk song or Tudor church music influence. The latter may be what is often associated with Englishness.

Holst is a composer whose works should be much more widely know. Apart from 'The Planets' (a fabulous piece) he seems to get little attention. His music from the 20s and very early 30s is fascinating - much more spare with a strong neo-classical influence. I've played this disc endlessly over the years (first as an LP, then as an expanded CD):

[A Lark Ascending]

Just noticed that both Chandos and Lyrita are now up on e-music (at least here in the UK). Never noticed that happening!

[Free For All]

Not one of the "heavy hitters" perhaps, but I've heard some pieces by Sir Arthur Bliss that I've enjoyed.

[A Lark Ascending]

An interesting composer - in the 20s he was considered a bit of an enfant terrible; a bit too modernistic and (a bigger crime in some eyes at the time) continental. As time went on he seemed to get absorbed into the mainstream. A bit like Walton.

There's some of his spikier stuff on this disc:

My favourite is the more romantic 'A Colour Symphony' - great tunes there!

Talking of Walton, there's a marvellous Decca box of his main orchestral pieces:

The First Symphony, in particular, is amazing. One of those glowering between the wars pieces like RVW's Fourth.

[Larry Kart]

Tippett's Piano Concerto -- I fell in love with that work about 40 years ago, thanks to John Ogdon-Colin Davis recording. Just picked up the new Stephen Osborne 2-disc set on Hyperion, with the concerto (cond. by Martyn Brabbins) and the four piano sonatas. First movement of the concerto (all I've tried so far) sounded a bit literal-mind and earthbound to me (this is a "poetic" work in the best sense), but I can't get at the Ogdon-Davis right now to compare. Also have one with Tippett conducting and M. Tirmio (sp?), which I don't recall very well. Did hear some orchestral details in the new Osborne performance that were new to me, but... And the sound seemed a bit congested.

[tonym]

I was in Banks' Music, York yesterday and noticed a fair collection of Finzi's music on offer; most of it on the Lyrita label IIRC. I was very tempted but I'll keep listening to R3 in the hope of catching some (money's tight at the mo').

One thing that occurred to me though, and this is no doubt common knowledge to most here , but Finzi was the father to Kiffer (Christopher) Finzi who married Jacqueline Du Pre's sister, Hilary.

When reading the thread a few days ago I thought the name sounded familiar!

Sorry!

[A Lark Ascending]

Finzi is very much a minaturist. There are a few bigger pieces - a clarinet and cello concerto, some choral works - but he's best known for his songs and song cycles.

He's someone I like rather than love - he seems to operate in a more limited range than people like Walton or RVW. I've recently read Diana McVeagh's biography of him and didn't warm to him as a person. She quotes his letters at length and he comes across as someone who feels a duty not to be too easily impressed. Quite critical of the music of others, easily wounded when his own music was criticised.

My favourite Finzi disc is this one:

Far from his best known works and too 'pastoral' for some tastes, but I never tire of it.

[isn't Banks' great! Like going back in time to the days when you bought records in general music shops. I actually bought the CD above there last Easter to replace a well worn LP copy.]

Edited February 21, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[andyp]

[isn't Banks' great! Like going back in time to the days when you bought records in general music shops. I actually bought the CD above there last Easter to replace a well worn LP copy.]

One of my favourite places - Windows in Newcastle was good as was Hamiltons in Middlesbrough, but Banks was truly an Aladdin's Cave for sheet music - very similar feeling walking into the jazz section at Tower Records in London for the 1st time or J&R in NYC for that matter. Great though the www is, I do think that the fact that "everything is available" now denies us that frisson of discovery ....

Even more OT, but Bev - can you tell me what was the Vaughan Williams so admired by Trotter and Harding in the Rotters Club ?

I've lent the book out so can't look it up !

Cheers

[A Lark Ascending]

Even more OT, but Bev - can you tell me what was the Vaughan Williams so admired by Trotter and Harding in the Rotters Club ?

I've lent the book out so can't look it up !

Cheers

I can't recall - might have been 'The Lark Ascending'. I'll have a look tonight...got to dash now.

Edit: Just had a look - it was 'The Lark'. They go on to get excited about 'Five Variants on Dives and Lazurus', 'Norfolk Rhapsody No.1', 'In the Fen Country', the symphonies and the 'Serenade to Music'.

Edited February 24, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[andybleaden]

What sacrilige ....who forgot to mention the Worzels. See you can claim credit for jazz and maybe a bit of blues in teh US but you have not got claim to the masters of modernity

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Wurzels

[Niko]

these two john foulds record covers always intrigue me (especially given how ugly most classical cds are) when i browse the classical music section of our record store (admittedly mostly just to buy presents for my mother)

how is the music?

another vaughan williams fan here btw

[tonym]

One of my favourite places - Windows in Newcastle was good as was Hamiltons in Middlesbrough, but Banks was truly an Aladdin's Cave for sheet music - very similar feeling walking into the jazz section at Tower Records in London for the 1st time or J&R in NYC for that matter. Great though the www is, I do think that the fact that "everything is available" now denies us that frisson of discovery ....

Windows was still very good last month when I visited last. Didn't expect it to be but they are managing to hold on to a fair selection of classical CDs.

Now Hamilton's & Austin Record Service. Isn't it a small world. The last thing I thought we'd be discussing on a Michigan based jazz forum would be these two dusty little gems!

[andyp]

Windows was still very good last month when I visited last. Didn't expect it to be but they are managing to hold on to a fair selection of classical CDs.

Now Hamilton's & Austin Record Service. Isn't it a small world. The last thing I thought we'd be discussing on a Michigan based jazz forum would be these two dusty little gems!

A small world indeed .... we may even get around to Alan Fearnley's emporium shortly.

Window's classical section has survived better than the jazz - I think Robert has left and along with him the great selection and fabulous advice - a real shame

Edited February 29, 2008 by andyp

[Alexander Hawkins]

On the Moeran tip - there are some stunning song settings of Joyce.