Ornette Coleman -Something Else

[brownie]

I still have the mono LP of 'Something Else' which I bought when it came out in 1959.

The photo on the cover is credited to Walter Zerlinden. Most of the covers for Contemporary albums were taken by William Claxton. Odd that he was not assigned to take that one. The cover of the second Coleman album for Contemporary 'Tomorrow is the Question' is credited to Roger Marshutz.

I found those Contemporary albums quite interesting but it took me the first Atlantic albums to really enjoy Ornette's music.

The cover photos of those Atlantic LPs 'The Shape of Jazz to Come' and 'Change of the Century' were taken by William Claxton (Shape) and

Lee Friedlander (Change).

[king ubu]

I got started with the Atlantics and then went backwards to the Contemporary albums later on. Finally I just bought the Gambit edition of the Hillcrest Bley recording - fascinating stuff! But somehow to me it still feels as if the "real" Ornette kicks in with "The Shape of Jazz to Come"!

[mjzee]

After listening to this music on and off for a few decades now, I still don't enjoy it. I like a tonal center - it makes music appealing to me. I've also approached Ornette from the "he's a genius - he's more evolved than we are - we must study him as a disciple approaches a master, mulling over the product until a eureka moment occurs," but it still hasn't happened. I mostly find his approach annoying. There have been moments I've liked - some things with Izenson, Prime Time (who I saw live once), but the appeal doesn't last very long, as it doesn't seem the scenery changes. I'll probably keep trying, on and off. I concede that YMMV.

Does anyone know the reason why they changed pics on Something Else? For instance, was it because the first photo was too conservative-looking for the music and they thought that a bearded, non-suited Ornette looked more radical and represented the music better?

Was the second photo taken a few years later?

[king ubu]

Many of Ornette's early tunes and solos have what I'd call a "tonal center"... in fact I've seen a transcription of a solo from "The Shape..." and it was mostly in C Major - with some liberties of course, as is to be expected.

[7/4]

Many of Ornette's early tunes and solos have what I'd call a "tonal center"... in fact I've seen a transcription of a solo from "The Shape..." and it was mostly in C Major - with some liberties of course, as is to be expected.

Yep. What it doesn't have - and I may be wrong about this - are those ii - V and ii - V - IM7 cadences that are all though the great American songbook standards that make up pre-Ornette jazz.

[JSngry]

Oh, it has them, just not in a preplanned or symmetrical order. They happen when they need to, not when they're supposed to.

[7/4]

Oh, it has them, just not in a preplanned or symmetrical order. They happen when they need to, not when they're supposed to.

Thanks. It's certainly different than what happened before.

So then what's happening there that makes people think that it's so unlikeable as Jazz? It's different?

[JSngry]

Many/most people feel discomforted by the lack of a preplanned and/or predictable order.

[7/4]

Many/most people feel discomforted by the lack of a preplanned and/or predictable order.

Maybe that's what I was thinking of with the ii-V-IM7 suggestion.

and maybe it's that constant NEW coming out of the music that thrills me.

[JSngry]

For me, it's not so much "new" as it is "life"...life is different when you improvise (sometimes ecstatic, sometimes terrifying, but always different), and Ornette pretty much brought a new level of improvisation to a music that had frequently begun to be less and less improvisatory and more and more interpretive.

Of course, nothing lasts forever, and Ornette now is still a delight, but he's also more interpretive than in 1959. I mean, that's just life and it is beautiful. He's no longer inventing himself as much as he is interpreting himself (the difference being, I suppose, in the amount of "there" there is left to uncover...), but that's how it goes, and if you stay true, as he has done, it's a beautiful thing to behold.

[mjzee]

So then what's happening there that makes people think that it's so unlikeable as Jazz?

I think it's apparent. It's kinda like that famous definition of pornography: I may not be able to describe it, but I know it when I hear it. The frustrating thing for me is when people deny what is so apparent: I hear a lack of joy and warmth, but people say "Oh, his compositions are so joyful." I hear a sameness and repetition, but people say "Oh, his music is so new and fresh." I hear a grating, kvetchy quality to his sax tone, but people say "Oh, his sax tone is so pure, like a voice."

My guess is you need to accept a lack of a tonal center as fine, and then you can enjoy following the improvisation. But I think a lot of the joy in listening to jazz is listening to the chord progression (especially when it's a great chord progression), and then to hear the soloist comment on/through that.

I can accept that others hear great music in Ornette that I don't. But I couldn't imagine putting on an Ornette album for pure pleasure.

[JSngry]

My guess is you need to accept a lack of a tonal center as fine, and then you can enjoy following the improvisation.

But...quite often, usually, in fact, there is an overall tonal center! The key word there being "overall'...

Ok, dislike what you like for whatever reasons, cool, but at least know the facts of what it is you don't like!

[mjzee]

This is from an article/interview with Ornette. (The full article can be found here: Organissimo forum)

"Standard Western notation and harmony is a big problem for him, particularly for the fact that the notation for many instruments (including his three instruments — alto saxophone, trumpet and violin) must be transposed to fit the “concert key” of C in Western music.

"Mr. Coleman talks about “music” with care and accuracy, but about “sound” with love. He doesn’t understand, he says, how listeners will ever properly understand the power of notes when they are bossed around by the common Western system of harmony and tuning.

"He’s not endorsing cacophony: he says making music is a matter of finding euphonious resolutions between different players. (And much of his music keeps referring to, if not actually staying in, a major key.)"

I do think I know what it is (actually, the many things) I don't like about Ornette's music. The article above describes the many ways his music is different than most Western music (= most jazz). I don't particularly care for the results. I'm happy that you enjoy it.

[JSngry]

Yeah, I got that, and it's all good, but nowhere in that quote does Ornette mention a total lack of tonal center, which would be my only bone of contention here, the claiming that such a lack is present, when it in fact (usually) isn't.

It's like the people who say that Trane's last solos have no structure. In fact they do, and as transcriptions have proven it's fairly easily discernible once it all gets broken down like that (and yeah, breaking it down like that is a lot of work, and the issue of how much effort people should be expected to expend in getting there is perfectly legit). So if people say they don't like it or can't hear it, I (usually) don't quibble. But when they say that there's "no structure" there, I do, because there is. Same thing with Ornette & tonal centers. They're there.

Now if by tonal center, you mean "reoccurring chord changes", then no, they aren't there. But "tonal center" and "reoccurring chord changes" are not the same thing.

Edited February 27, 2010 by JSngry

[Guy Berger]

Hard to believe, but I've read reviews by "serious" Ornette fans that badmouth the Contemporary albums. A serious mistake in my opinion.

[Joe]

From what I've read, most of the complaints re: the Contemporary sides have to do with the supporting casts. But, IMO, Walter Norris does some valiant work on SOMETHING ELSE, and I really like Shelly Manne's (admittedly, sometimes self-consciously "hip") contributions to TOMORROW IS THE QUESTION.

[Mark Stryker]

As it happens, Dave Liebman has a new recording out of Ornette's music and he's reprinted his liner notes on his website as part of his newsletter. There's a relevant discussion of some of the musical issues getting kicked around here:

http://liebintervals.blogspot.com/2010/02/intervals-marchapril-2010.html

Scroll down to the middle ...

[clifford_thornton]

I'd like to hear that Liebman CD on Jazz-Werkstatt.

[mjzee]

As it happens, Dave Liebman has a new recording out of Ornette's music and he's reprinted his liner notes on his website as part of his newsletter. There's a relevant discussion of some of the musical issues getting kicked around here:

http://liebintervals.blogspot.com/2010/02/intervals-marchapril-2010.html

Scroll down to the middle ...

Thanks, Mark. I've never studied music, so it's interesting to read something like that and compare it to my impressions of what I hear. I take it that Ornette plays a melody, but doesn't link it to an underlying chord structure - the melody's just hanging out there, to be appreciated for it's own sake. Well, OK, I like tone and logic as much as anybody. But music's like a parfait - it's all the ingredients, and how they mesh together, and how it's baked. In much of Ornette's music, when I listen to the whole song, my impressions are "OK, what's the bass doing? What's the drum doing? How do they relate to the sax or the trumpet?" It's almost like, as long as they stick to the same tempo, they could be in separate rooms, each doing their own thing. And how can a music that the composer insists is so melodic be so unmelodious?

And is it possible that in harmony there is warmth? People often say that Ornette's playing is like a cry (which I can hear) or happiness (I don't hear a lot of that). But I don't know that music that tries to be so singular can really convey a sound of commonality or geniality. I wonder whether Liebman's album attempts, through the addition of harmony, to add warmth and approachability to Ornette's compositions. I'd be curious to hear it, and to compare the tracks to Ornette's originals.

I guess I like song structure. I like knowing what the band is trying to accomplish. With Ornette's music, I'm left unmoved - at the end of a song, I'm no different than I was at the beginning.

[JSngry]

Liebman uses the phrase "intentional-direct harmony", which doesn't mean that the melodies are not linked to an underlying harmony (that is ultimately impossible, although just as with standards, there are any number of possible harmonies that could go with the melody. What it means is that Ornette simply doesn't set up recurring chord changes as the basis for improvisation, simple as that.

As far as everybody sounding like they're playing in a different room, ok, that's subjective up to a point, but damn, the early Atlantic albums...the harmonic simpatico on display there between the horns & the rhythm section is pretty strong, if one can hear harmony outside of the realm of preset chord changes. If one can't then one is outta luck there, I guess...

I guess I like song structure. I like knowing what the band is trying to accomplish.

Are those being presented as the same thing?

[7/4]

And is it possible that in harmony there is warmth? People often say that Ornette's playing is like a cry (which I can hear) or happiness (I don't hear a lot of that).

The Mexican hat dance on acid melodies sound pretty happy to me.

[brownie]

FreshSound Records are reissuing the two Contemporary albums plus the Atlantic 'The Shape of Jazz to Come' (including its two additional tracks) on a double CD 'Too Much, Too Soon' out this month:

[mjzee]

FreshSound Records are reissuing the two Contemporary albums plus the Atlantic 'The Shape of Jazz to Come' (including its two additional tracks) on a double CD 'Too Much, Too Soon' out this month:

Surprised they're not calling it "The Complete Don Cherry 1959 Sessions."

[Chuck Nessa]

[Enterprise Server]

This a late post but I couldn't help but kibitz. Anytime Ornette's name comes up, I have to say something. I cannot express how dynamic and creative this mans music is. I have a license plate holder on my car that has Tomorrow is The Question at the bottom and Ornette Coleman at the top. If that’s a hint......