Art Pepper, why he was the best?

[Ron Thorne]

"Art Pepper, why he was the best?, Emotion in jazz"

This thread title struck me on several levels. The "best"? Was he? To whom, on what day, and in what context? Isn't this an extraordinarily subjective question?

While a fan of Art Pepper, when I think of or see the word "Pepper", only two things come to mind ... a condiment/spice (lower case) and Jim Pepper. Some posters here are well aware of my appreciation for and non-stop support of the late Jim Pepper's musical legacy. So, with all due respect, and while not attempting to derail this thread ...

I don't have the energy or time at the moment to express my full feelings and/or detail my personal connection with Native American saxophonist Jim Pepper, but suffice it to say that he's one of the most under-appreciated and least known "monsters" who graced the jazz scene, at least in my humble opinion. And, he was a dear friend for many years.

Some suggestions:

"Comin' & Goin" (original Europa JP 2014) Island/Antilles 7-90680-1 recorded in May, June, August 1983 - This is the definitive statement of Pepper's unique "American Indian jazz" and a must-have for lovers of his music. Don Cherry is among the all-star lineup.

"Dakota Song" Enja 5043 (CD-34) King K32Y-6225 (Japan) recorded April 1987, with Kirk Lightsey, piano; Santi Debriano, bass; John Betsch, drums.

"The Story of Maryam" with the Paul Motian Quintet. Soul Note 1074, recorded 7/83; "Jack of Clubs" SN1124 recorded 3/84; ' Misterioso' SN 21164 recorded 7/86 Motian, drums; Ed Schuller, bass; Bill Frisell, guitar; Joe Lovano, tenor.

"Nightwork" with the Marty Cook Group. Enja 5033 recorded 1/87

"Mal, Dance, and Soul" with Mal Waldron. TuTu 888- 002 (CD102) recorded 11/87, "Art of the Duo" TuTu 888- 006 recorded 4/88, "Quadrologue at Utopia" Vol. 1 TuTu CD 888118 recorded 10/89.

[jazz1]

"Art Pepper, why he was the best?, Emotion in jazz"

This thread title struck me on several levels. The "best"? Was he? To whom, on what day, and in what context? Isn't this an extraordinarily subjective question?

This is an easy question to answer, why he was the best

1) To whom: to me he gave me more listeneing pleasure than any other instrumentalist

2) On what day: Evertyme I played his music

3) In what context: I prefer the later period

As far as Jim Pepper the only cds I have are the 2 TUTU at Utopia

I really enjoy them, I can hear some similarity with Art, and "Intensity" is definetely one of them.

I will investigate the other titles you mentioned.

The search never ends. Anyway, thanks.

[Jazzmoose]

Strangely enough, I had only Meets the Rhythym Section for a couple of years. It was okay, but just didn't impress me that much. After getting Smack Up, I'll go with that one any day. Haven't tried his later stuff yet; maybe someday. Let's face it, after waiting until 40 to really dive into the jazz, I'll never catch up with you lifetime listeners...

[Ron Thorne]

"Art Pepper, why he was the best?, Emotion in jazz"

This thread title struck me on several levels. The "best"? Was he? To whom, on what day, and in what context? Isn't this an extraordinarily subjective question?

This is an easy question to answer, why he was the best

1) To whom: to me he gave me more listeneing pleasure than any other instrumentalist

2) On what day: Evertyme I played his music

3) In what context: I prefer the later period

As far as Jim Pepper the only cds I have are the 2 TUTU at Utopia

I really enjoy them, I can hear some similarity with Art, and "Intensity" is definetely one of them.

I will investigate the other titles you mentioned.

The search never ends. Anyway, thanks.

Forgive me if you feel that I was trying to question your taste or the reason you felt compelled to create this thread, jazz1. That wasn't my point. I really dig Art Pepper. I dig Jim Pepper even more! However, I don't particularly dig unsupportable superlatives such as "best", "most", etc., thus my comments in that regard. Your response to my post fully supports my comment regarding subjectivity, by the way.

I'm delighted that Art Pepper has been so meaningful in your musical experience. I'm also delighted to learn that you have some Jim Pepper recordings in your collection. He was so underappreciated and underexposed. And, he died so young ... at the age of 50. Art, sadly, was only slightly older. They were each extraordinarily passionate players who shared the same last name, and great contributors to this magificent art form.

Everything's cool.

Edited September 29, 2003 by Ron Thorne

[PFunkJazz]

I've got twenty or so Pepper albums, and Straight Life, natch, and I'm a real fan of the man's music, but I'm not sure he did play with a lot of 'emotion'. I think he played with a lot of 'feeling'. For most of his waking adult life Art was not in touch with his emotions, being junked out and emotionally neutered, but he was always in touch with his feelings - and that's what you hear pouring out of the grooves: he felt good, he felt strung out, he felt all variants of and degrees of and points in between, and boy did he let you know it. But emotional, I don't think so.

Now Coltrane, he was emotional. And Ware, he is emotional.

Drawing distinctions between emotions and feelings may seem a pedantic, and if so I apologise, but it is one of the few pieces of common ground shared by both Jungian and Freudian analysts, and I've always found it helpful and instructive to be aware of the distinction myself.

[jazz1]

Now Coltrane, he was emotional. And Ware, he is emotional.

Drawing distinctions between emotions and feelings may seem a pedantic, and if so I apologise, but it is one of the few pieces of common ground shared by both Jungian and Freudian analysts, and I've always found it helpful and instructive to be aware of the distinction myself.

Feelings, emotions?? maybe we are playing with words.

Listening to the "Village Vanguard sessions" I rarely heard more pasionate playing than that.

Art was playing with feelings in is early days but with passion near the end, and this is this particular period that I love.

To me it is pure Passion.

[BruceH]

While all of his Contemporary stuff is great, I've got to vote that you check out "The Way It Was"----on four tracks he's paired with Warne Marsh and it doesn't get much better.

[jazz1]

While all of his Contemporary stuff is great, I've got to vote that you check out "The Way It Was"----on four tracks he's paired with Warne Marsh and it doesn't get much better.

Yes Yes Yes, the recordings with Warne Marsh are great, just shows you there is so much great Pepper around. I must have around 50 Pepper cds and I love most of it. Very few duds.

In a way the early Pepper and the late Pepper could be compared with the early and late Billie Holiday. some prefer the early stuff, others the late stuff, myself I love it all. I am a Pepper addict.

[A Lark Ascending]

Something I was thinking about.

It is common for jazz enthusiasts to evaluate the success of jazz in terms of 'emotion.' Music is often dismissed for being cold, passionless, lacking 'soul.'

Now if you move across to the visual arts the idea that a painting must have emotion or 'soul' is pretty 18th-19thC. Much 20th C painting would set as its goals, and be evaluated according to its ability to present interesting patterns - creative use of colour or space or form.

I just wonder if musical listeners also respond in those different ways. Some are looking for that supposed 'emotion' in the music whilst others can be satisfied by something considerably more abstract.

Of course most music contains elements of both. But as a generalisation it could be argued that traditional blues based jazz seems to vere more towards 'emotional' expression whilst much ECM music, for example, seems to be more focussed on the 'sound painting.' When certain listeners express disquiet with the 'chilly' soundworld of ECM perhaps its because they are listening to music performed for reasons very different to their own expectations.

I suspect I'm more of 'patterns' listener. Someone running through a set of blues chords, however 'passionate', is likely to lose my attention because the structure is so familiar. Whereas a Bobo Stenson or Tomas Stanko or Eberhard Weber recording strikes me as having much more interesting colours.

I'm not trying to draw firm barriers here; I like music from both sides but I'd say I vere towards the 'interesting sounds' rather than the 'heartfelt emotion.'

I mention this because it strikes me more and more both here and on AAJ that many of us are listening to jazz with very different ears. I wonder if our very different reactions to particular recordings might be tied in with our very different expectations of what we want music to sound like.

This would certainly seem to be the case with those who find something missing in contemporary jazz which they hear in spades in the recordings of, say, Art Pepper.

Edited October 2, 2003 by Bev Stapleton

[Guy Berger]

I've heard every Ware record since "Passage to Music" (which I liked a lot) and kinda think he's a blowhard. A dedicated musician, of course, but save his voluble "energy" (man) not an especially compelling or emotionally nuanced one. I still listen to all eras of Art Pepper with great pleasure, however. What am I missing?

clem

On record, I've found Ware to be a bit unrelenting. His playing is just SO HEAVY that I find it difficult to listen to a whole CD at a time. That kind of intensity translates much better into live performance.

Guy

[wesbed]

The thing that gets me about Pepper is that he always sounds so damn TIGHT. Not in a "non-swinging" way, but just like he's got a LOT of stuff bottled up inside him that he can't and/or won't let go of for whatever reason. I've never heard ANYBODY hug the time as close as he does. It's like a 6 foot tall man doing an intenselyintricate dance in a room that's got a 6.01 foot high ceiling with a half inch on either side. Same thing with his tone - it's full but tight, like Jimmy Rushing's body packed inside Jimmy Scott's skin. You get the feeling like a really messy explosion could happen any second, but it never, NEVER does.

JSngry:

Thanks for making me start to 'get' Art Pepper.

Now, I gotta buy more Art Pepper CDs. Thanks. Yeah, thanks a lot.

Edited May 3, 2004 by wesbed

[kh1958]

Live Art Pepper, available from dustygroove.com.

DVD -- 20th Century Jazz Masters -- Gerry Mulligan Plus Art Pepper & Art Farmer . . . DVD . . . $18.99  (Item: 78705)

Idem (Spain), 1962/1964 Condition: New Copy    View Cart   

A great collection of cool and modern jazz performances -- all originally broadcast on American TV! First up is a performance by Gerry Mulligan, playing both baritone and piano, in a quartet with Bob Brookmeyer -- first broadcast on July 18, 1962, and featuring 4 tracks that include "Four For Three", "Utter Chaos", and "Open Country". Next is a rare mid 60s performance from Art Pepper -- working in a searing tone, with a quartet that includes Frank Strazzeri on piano -- on three selections originally broadcast on May 8, 1964: "The Trip", "D Section", and "Untitled" -- all great Pepper originals! Last is the classic pairing of Art Farmer and Jim Hall, with Steve Swallow on bass and Walter Perkins -- magically drifting through 5 tracks that include "Change Partners", "Some Time Ago", and "Bag's Groove" -- in a performance first broadcast on January 10, 1964. 90 minutes of music! (Region 0 -- double-sided disc, plays in both PAL & NTSC!)

[wesbed]

The thing that gets me about Pepper is that he always sounds so damn TIGHT. Not in a "non-swinging" way, but just like he's got a LOT of stuff bottled up inside him that he can't and/or won't let go of for whatever reason.

Ever since I read these words from JSngry, I've been enjoying and appreciating Art Pepper. I've never thought too much about Pepper till now. Not too much good, not too much bad.

JSngry's words hit home with me. I've been, recently, listening to Art Pepper and liking every well-placed note. It sounds as if Art might blow a lip or a reed and spew something mysterious all over the place. At the same time, there is pleasure in knowing he can continue playing, the listener can continue listening, and nothing will EVER blow (except for the great music blowing through Pepper's horn).

[DrJ]

Although they couldn't be more different in other ways, one parallel I'd draw in describing the appeal of Pepper would be with B.B. King. As with King, part of Pepper's mystique and magic were that he always held something in reserve, which Jim Sangrey alludes to. B.B. plays guitar that way, and while he's definitely no "virtuoso" in the traditional sense, his incredible restraint and striving to find the least fussy and ornamented path directly to the truth in a song or solo are reminiscent of what I hear in Pepper too.

It's funny that people comment about how emotional Pepper was - and I agree he was, too - in this light. He never got "messy" and just "let it all hang out," but reigned it in so you get that delicious tension and sense of longing and unfulfilled passion that comes through in his best work.

Part of it is time sense as Jim says, but it extends beyond that to note choice, a steadfast rejection of showy displays of technique that failed to serve the music, etc. A true artist.

[jazzbo]

I had to think about it but I think I would agree with your compairson Tony, except to say that both these artists were MORE that way in their MATURE phase, than in their earlier years. . . . The very first decade of B. B. or so I would say show many many evidences (to me) of a master guitarist just cutting loose and holding nothing back emotionally, technically, or with tone . . . . Also I find that this is partly the case in early Pepper as well. . . .

[JSngry]

Well, ok, but I'd say that B.B. plays like he knows more than he lets on, but that Pepper plays like he knows more than he wants to.

And I'm not talking music!

[John L]

Well, ok, but I'd say that B.B. plays like he knows more than he lets on, but that Pepper plays like he knows more than he wants to.

And I'm not talking music!

That sounds about right (if I gave it the right interpretation).

In some ways, I think that BB King and Art Pepper are opposites. BB King is always calm and collected, completely in control of the situation, as much impressionistic as expressionistic. Art Pepper is like a ball of fire in a staightjacket, always pushing hard to increase the intensity, reaching deep within himself, aiming to go out of control but somehow never getting all the way there.

Edited May 17, 2004 by John L

[danasgoodstuff]

Thought y'all might be interested that www.downbeat.com currectly has an interview with the man from 1964, at the height of his infatuation with Coltrane's playing. despite his attempts during this period and post-comeback to 'let it all hang out', I agree that Pepper remained v. tightly wound.

[DrJ]

I agree with the additional comments of Lon and Jim wholeheartedly. Pepper in his early days (e.g. with Kenton) was to my ears a lot lighter, even exuberant at times although there was still that undercurrent of unease. And BB certainly was more "frisky" as a younger man. The comparison was indeed intended to be with their mature phases, thanks for pointing that out.

Jim captures another difference perfectly in his comment about knowing more than one lets on and knowing more than one wants to - priceless, great encapsulation.

[wesbed]

I've been grooving to Art Pepper in recent days. Why did it take me so long to 'get ' him? His saxophone shines so brightly out in front of who ever he's playing with. He's got a great tone and a terrific style. His playing grabs my attention and holds it tight whenever he plays.

But, ohhhhh, does Mr. Pepper look all used up in this photo. I wonder if it required his life to be so hellish for him to produce such sweet and poignant music?