Just some thoughts on why I am somewhat tired of jazz

[AllenLowe]

was reading Gary Kamiya's intelligent article on jazz vs rock - and thinking, why do I almost never listen to jazz anymore? My wife thinks I've gone nuts, but all I put on are: 1920s/30s hillbilly; 1920s/30s blues; 1920s/30s songsters; really old sorta/jazz, pre 1935; congregational/small group and guitar gospel, 1920-1955, approximately; No Wave/punk from 1970-1978, approximately; 1960s rock and roll -

and so I think I've finally figured this out - aside from just general burnout (listening to jazz since 1968, sometimes up to 8 hours/day) I find that those musics that I am now listening to better satisfy my desire for fragmentary expression as a more accurate and interesting reflection of consciousness than smoother, continuous, more linear expression; why no free jazz than? I would listen if the solos/performances were shorter and more concise (lets say 2-4 minutes tops). I like the anarchy of those kinds of music above, the lack of continuity, the rawness, yet great discipline and abstract yet real organization; for me personally it relates to what a great writer once said about all the stories having been told, and his belief that the current subjects should be states of consciousness. I realize there are exceptions, things that I like that don't fit into this scheme of things. But that, in a brief statement, is why I almost never listen to jazz (or maybe contemporary jazz, or maybe post-war jazz).

AND - as a player - I feel I can play better in this style - meaning the fragmentary approach approximates my own consciousness and personal scattered state better than, say, the more organized lines of bebop. I don't want to create a melody that is coherent and nice and perfect - I want to produce pieces of nothing, the opening words of sentences that I may never complete.

this is my new philosophy. Maybe born of necessity, out of my own personal internal/external chaos. Now I gotta start practicing again -

[clifford_thornton]

Great post/thread idea.

I like and appreciate all of the genres you mention, though am most familiar with no wave.

I'm kind of with you on some counts regarding contemporary jazz and improvisation. Of course, I have a soft spot for lengthy Cecil and Coltrane solos, but the things I've been most attracted to in recent years are twittery collective improvisation and raging Euro-thrash din, or the Tristano-ites. There's a nice little project called Two Bands And A Legend that features The Thing (Gustafsson/Haker Flaten/Nilssen-Love), Joe McPhee and the Norwegian punk band Cato Salsa Experience. Mostly short songs, not so much "spastic" and more of a 60s-garage-revival hybridized with post-FMP freedom. It may be a parenthetical aside at this point in the music's history (and will probably always be), but it works in practice as well as idea.

For a time, I was convinced that the music I really wanted to hear hadn't been made, though I always sought to find what it was. My search isn't as obsessively urgent as it used to be (based mostly on pocketbook constraints), in some ways it is still true. I haven't yet found the combination of jazz/open improvisation/folk/ragas/post-punk that I'm looking for, but have come close on a few occasions. If Daevid Allen and Arto Lindsay co-conducted the People Band, that would be up there...

[AllenLowe]

the biggest problem for me has been finding the right musicians - while I'm happy with my CD, I feel like I've gone beyond it now; and have recently found a bassist whom I think will work well with some of my current ideas - only took me 12 years -

[BeBop]

For many years, I found enough variety in jazz (20s to present) that I didn't find much need to step into anything else. But I found that stepping into something else actually broadened my horizons and appreciation, not to mention revitalized my playing. And so I'm dabbling in bluegrass, electronica, techno and damn near any other creative form I come across...and digging it all.

[jazzbo]

There's something in the air because I've been progressively listening to less jazz too. Burn out is a factor too, been listening to jazz with increasing intensity since just shortly after Allen started.

Not too sure otherwise. . . I just don't feel compelled to listen to hours and hours of jazz as I had before. I am in a phase where bebop and hardbop just don't "reach me" but I've been in and out of this phase before. Big swing band stuff too just doesn't interest me lately.

I have been living a good chunk of my jazz life in Ellington, because I seem to have to. His musical universe just has me anchored with tremendous GForce and I can't escape.

And I love the sort of Armstrong All Stars and Chicagoans jazz still and respond with joy and rapt attention. That format and that sound is just in my blood.

And I'm still in an Albert Ayler phase (may never get out of that) and a Sun Ra phase (I know that this one won't last too much longer, but will come back).

I've been listening to a lot of sixties rock, a lot of Brazilian, and some Beethoven and Stravinsky in the place of some jazz Iistening.

Edited February 21, 2008 by jazzbo

[Noj]

Like BeBop and Lon, diversification has helped me from burning out on any one genre. However, I haven't been listening to music for nearly as long as you guys. Recently I have found myself annoyed with my music collection, stuck in a rut and playing the same stuff too much--not exploring what I already have enough.

[seeline]

Hmm... I've needed to consistently listen to jazz plus other kinds of music since I was very young (got started on jazz via my mom's large collection of jazz LPs and penchant for playing them when she was doing housework, etc.).

But a steady diet of jazz only has never worked for me, and as an adult, I've found that my passion for playing music has taken me very far away from anything that could be considered as "jazz," in a narrow sense, at least. (Though all of the instruments I've been working with can be incorporated into jazz; some have been, most haven't.)

For the past 9+ years, I've been pretty focused on many different kinds of Brazilian music, with (more and more) an emphasis on African music as well.

But just yesterday I pulled out a CD of plainsong by Byrd and other English composers of that period, and man - I needed to hear that!

So, much as I do love jazz, I find myself spending relatively little time listening to it, and when I do, I seem to be increasingly focused on older recordings. (True of other styles as well.)

Edited February 21, 2008 by seeline

[papsrus]

Interesting. I've not been listening as long as some of you, but I can say my appetite for new music and new sounds is what drives my interest. This has had me bouncing around from free to contemporary, to ECM, to the 50s and 60s, to now Ellington and Basie and the beginnings of jazz.

I thought the Kamiya article was thought-provoking to an extent, but didn't delve deeply enough into the similarities or differences between the two musics. Nor did it, of course, expand the discussion into other musics.

The nature of improvised music being what it is, I'm constantly searching for unfamiliar terrain.

As for shorter free improv, Melford-Kalmanovitch "Heart Mountain," is worth investigating. Classically tinged, short improvisations. Or "Ghetto Calypso" by Marco Eneidi, Damon Smith, Peter Kowald. 17 short pieces of wonderful free improv.

[montg]

I've been listening to jazz, intently, for about 12 years and find that the diversity of the music is wide enough that it satisfies almost all of my listening needs--causal, intellectual, emotional, combination of those needs etc.... The range of the music, Johnny Dodds to Eric Dolphy, Condon to Coltrane, and so forth is astonishing. I mostly listen to rock only when I'm feeling nostalgic for my youth.

I especially get energized for the music when I can hear it live but, unfortunately, live jazz outside of large metropolitan areas is increasingly rare.

Even after 12 years, the universe of jazz recordings still seems infinite, there's so much I still want to hear. I wonder if I'll ever reach a point where there's nothing left that I want to buy/discover in the music. Kinda doubt it

[JSngry]

Well, ya'know, if the world changes/evolves & the music don't (or if the music changes/evolves in a way that makes it about keeping away from life rather than engaging in it), that's gonna make for some....awkward confrontations at some point.

Monday Michiru saved my life. As have, previously, a lot of jazz musicians' music. What they all did was reawaken that life and music both are not to be experienced in any but the fullest state of co-intimacy & immediacy, and that you gotta be where you are to get where you wanna go.

"Looking back" is not at all a bad thing, but "living back"....hmmmm.... not for me, I'll put it like that.

[seeline]

As for shorter free improv, Melford-Kalmanovitch "Heart Mountain," is worth investigating. Classically tinged, short improvisations. Or "Ghetto Calypso" by Marco Eneidi, Damon Smith, Peter Kowald. 17 short pieces of wonderful free improv.

I haven't heard Ghetto Calypso (or Heart Mountain, come to that!), but I think Myra's explorations into other styles (Indian classical being one) have given her music a new focus, intensity and - maybe - sense of purpose. (Not being her, or knowing her, I'm not about to presume to know what she's actually thinking. )

I think that's true for most folks who want to take their music to a new place - that your ears need to be open, as well as your mind and heart.

Just my .02-worth on the matter....

Edited February 21, 2008 by seeline

[Dan Gould]

As I've mentioned before, the main thrust of my listening of late has been blues and I think that the interest satisfies two separate desires, the second of which has only recently really occurred to me:

A need for the life affirming "it doesn't matter how bad it is" feeling I get from the blues (the blues as a music has never gotten me down, put it that way)

A desire to go back to vocal-based music.

I've always laughed derisively when people like Noj mention that their friends/family members always say "where are the lyrics?" but it occurs to me that as great a singer as Joe Williams or Ella Fitzgerald were, it may be easier for my rock-trained ears to really appreciate a heartfelt blues vocal, and that it was that style of storytelling that I got away from during my jazz journeys. Maybe it helps that I am listening so much to a true master, Junior Parker.

Its interesting to note that my desire to add "more, more, more" to my collection was, if anything, reinvigorated when I started into the blues field. I couldn't just enjoy what I had, I had to find others just like it while expanding in other directions, too. I guess that collector's bug really is genetic and I had only managed to suppress it in jazz after indulging it for nearly 20 years.

[AllenLowe]

love Junior Parker - the first black hillbilly - which brings us to Pat Hare, the greatest blues guitarist ever -

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Good thread - makes you think.

Since I bought my firt jazz records in 1959, I've never listened to jazz exclusively; to me it was always a kind of music that I could, and increasingly as I got to know more bout it, relate to R&B and Soul, my first musical love. But as time went on, though I bought more and more jazz albums that satisfied this relationship with R&B/Soul, I discovered other kinds of music that also had a close relationship with R&B - Blues; Gospel; Ska; Funk; Reggae; Disco; Hip Hop; Salsa - and I started buying African recordings (1963), so that Mbaqanga; Mbalax; Highlife; Afrobeat; Djeliya; Wassoulou got added in to my mix - and more recently, Zouglou and Hip-life - and those musics, too, can be related to R&B/Soul. Classical music, which is hard to relate to R&B/Soul, I gave up on the grounds that I couldn't afford that as well as all these other types of music that I could see were around, or around the corner.

And I've never got tired of the mixture.

But then, I'm certain that I don't listen to music - any music - as intently as most people here listen to jazz (or any other kind of music, I guess). If I can, I tend to listen with my body, with my mind sort of disengaged (but sometimes it IS hard to disengage your mind ). To me, none of this is music for contemplation; it's music for moving your body. And it's something of a window on a foreign culture, of course - but a feeling window, not a thinking window, if you know what I mean.

But maybe, because of the way I listen to it, this mix of music won't cease to inspire me until I'm completely paralysed.

MG

[papsrus]

As for shorter free improv, Melford-Kalmanovitch "Heart Mountain," is worth investigating. Classically tinged, short improvisations. Or "Ghetto Calypso" by Marco Eneidi, Damon Smith, Peter Kowald. 17 short pieces of wonderful free improv.

I haven't heard Ghetto Calypso (or Heart Mountain, come to that!), but I think Myra's explorations into other styles (Indian classical being one) have given her music a new focus, intensity and - maybe - sense of purpose. (Not being her, or knowing her, I'm not about to presume to know what she's actually thinking. )

I think that's true for most folks who want to take their music to a new place - that your ears need to be open, as well as your mind and heart.

Just my .02-worth on the matter....

Yes, as we've noted before, out there on the edges, jazz or creative music absorbs so many influences -- the term jazz refers as much to a method of approaching various musics (with improvisation in mind, swing perhaps, blues inflections maybe, etc.) as it does to the common lineage we all perceive. Jazz = curiosity, to an extent. In my mind anyways.

Having come to things through late-period Coltrane and beyond, then bouncing around different periods, the jazz of the early part of the last century is, to me, a totally "new" music. It's wonderful that way.

As to Melford -- incredibly intuitive player, I think. Consistently fascinating to listen to, technically brilliant, and really elevates everyone around her, it seems.

[paul secor]

I've always listened to many different genres of music. Lately I find myself taking the opposite track from Allen's. These days I'm listening to more jazz than ever before. Part of the reason for that is that I feel that I'm able to hear things more clearly than ever before. Maybe it's because I'm older and more patient than I was in the past. Whatever the reason, I find myself listening to Jelly Roll Morton, for example, and hearing more of what's going on than I ever had. And to use another example, I've listened to more Roscoe Mitchell over the past year, and heard more of what he's doing than I ever had before.

I still listen to other kinds of music, but I'm finding that there's a wealth of jazz that I've listened to but never completely heard. And that's an exciting thing for me.

[seeline]

As to Melford -- incredibly intuitive player, I think. Consistently fascinating to listen to, technically brilliant, and really elevates everyone around her, it seems.

Not to sidetrack this discussion, but I heard her interviewed on a D.C.-area radio station about 8-10 years ago and was very impressed by her intelligence, sense of humor and all-around ability to get into an engaging conversation.

Re. "detouring" into other kinds of music, my take is that that's the nature of how things work IRL, period - even if there's a certain awkwardness at first (say, in the earliest Cu-Bop recordings), that can change - and musicians all over the world are constantly trying to do just that. I guess it's our (US people) sense of being "first" and "best" at certain things that that can confuse the picture slightly...

Edited February 21, 2008 by seeline

[A Lark Ascending]

I've always been a butterfly - there are things in different musical genres that are totally distinct. There is absolutely nothing of the feel, rhythm, sound-world etc of English folk music in jazz so I have to go to English folk music some times. And in the last five or so years Scandinavian folk music has thrown up a whole new world. And more recently, Brazilian. Classical music, various rock musics, blues, country, bluegrass are all important to me - some I just skim across, others I soak myself in. And then there are the places I pop into - like African music - without really feeling totally at home there.

So like others, I never get tired of jazz - partly because I have plenty to refresh my palette elsewhere; partly because there's so much new jazz, so much old jazz that I'm quite unfamiliar with. And so much jazz I am familiar with but which still has layers that I've hardly even begun to access. It's amazing how you can listen to someone like Ellington for 30 years, yet still get a sudden desire to re-explore and then almost hear it all again anew (big thanks to Papsrus there - his enthusiasm about discovering Ellington just sent me back on a journey of rediscovery over the last month or so).

I count myself lucky to have been fired by music through the much ridiculed rock music of the early 70s. There was so much ambition (often reaching well beyond actual ability) from those musicians to reach out to other musics that I think they brought a whole decade of listeners along with them. Most of my musical interests today were ignited then (country, Scandinavian folk and Brazilian being the major exceptions).

No, not tired of jazz or anything else for that matter.

[montg]

I still listen to other kinds of music, but I'm finding that there's a wealth of jazz that I've listened to but never completely heard. And that's an exciting thing for me

same here

[kenny weir]

Well, heck, I'm certainly a paid up member of this club, too.

It's been a very gloriouslty confusing couple of years - esepcially, no doubt, for the listeners to my radio show.

Our station is split up into various categories - roots, jazz, metal, etc etc. But now, thanks to an understanding programming manager and a suitable timeslot, I'm in a place where I can play pretty much what I please.

Such pigeonholes may be necessary for logistical reasons, but are really for administrative purposes. I'm sure there's been a bit of head scratching going - "Yes, but what kind of show is it, exactly?" Bah!

And, of course, those pigeonhole don't reflect musical reality AT ALL.

So for me the past few years have been a jumpin' jamboree of jazz (mostly older stuff), R&B, western swing, bluegrass, blues, gospel and much more.

As well, I have been exploring various kinds of psychedelia with much zeal - which means that when I reach for more modern jazz stuff I have a knack for picking out Coltrane and/or Sun Ra.

I can identify at least two contradictory impulses at work - one, to nail down music that gets me "closer to God"; and, two, just to have some good old plain goofy fun. Preferably at about 3 minutes' duration. Hell, maybe those two aren't contradictory at all.

I even picked up the entire Pearls Before Swine catalog - they'd been a blind spot for sure and give me much pleasure. And much to my son's delight, the Monkees are prime time driving music for us.

And then Allen's That Devilin' Tune came along to play a hefty role.

Like Dan, I am relishing being up to my neck in vocals again - Charley Patton and Floyd Tillman, hello there.

And if I'm expensively retracing some moves/steps made many years ago, the ease with which all this stuff is gettable is amazing and thrilling.

I have to confess, also, that a part of this is disenchantment with some of arid and precisely brilliant contemporary jazz I had been hearing. And lots of it. Just wasn't doing it for me any more.

It's all good - cliche, cliche. I'm finding my revisitation of ancient and venerable and crusty blues and country stuff has been enhanced by a decade plus of little but post-war jazz.

Edited February 21, 2008 by kenny weir

[kenny weir]

BTW, could be that if so many folks here are doing this that it's little wonder some newcomers are a little perplexed - that while there's a lot of jazz talk there's also as much these days about other stuff, musical and non-musical. We all just take it for granted, but it probably does seem kinda strange.

[WorldB3]

Yes, as we've noted before, out there on the edges, jazz or creative music absorbs so many influences -- the term jazz refers as much to a method of approaching various musics (with improvisation in mind, swing perhaps, blues inflections maybe, etc.) as it does to the common lineage we all perceive. Jazz = curiosity, to an extent. In my mind anyways.

As to Melford -- incredibly intuitive player, I think. Consistently fascinating to listen to, technically brilliant, and really elevates everyone around her, it seems.

Second the comments on Melford, in fact it was her record Alive In The House Of Saints that got me back into the blues after I got burnt out on it two years ago. The way she plays the blues is more of a feel but that essence of Chicago Blues is there. Now I am back big time into Pre War Blues and Otis Span-Muddy Waters Chicago blues.

I think with me if I am practicing (more of a hobbyist at this point) standards or sight reading the last thing I want to spend my free time listening to are ii-v-i's and anything hard bop related.

I have been spinning a lot this week the Keith Jarrett standards trio record "Changless" which like the title says contains no changes. Just kind of these Steve Reich vamps and taking off from there, but i wouldn't call it free jazz either. Its nice to hear musicians of that caliber just going on listening and feeling as opposed to improvising off the road map of a tune.

I will say that after the last two years of heavy Jazz listening I have been really enjoying vocal - singer songwriter music again of late but I can't ever see a time when I give up jazz completely.

Edited February 21, 2008 by WorldB3

[Christiern]

I have been listening to jazz for 60 years and there are certain artists/recordings that I will never tire of, but Lon (jazzbo) brings up a good point--even jazz enjoyment is subject to burnout. In my first 20 years of listening, the enthusiasm for what I heard often knew no bounds, but there followed three decades where that listening intensified and often became compulsory; 28 years during which it was my job to listen just about every new release, attend virtually all NYC concerts, and develop such nook-and-cranny familiarity with the interiors of local jazz venues that it rivaled my own living room.

Listening to jazz became 80% obligation, but I still enjoyed the experience beyond the 20% that remained voluntary. Through obligatory listening, I made many wonderful discoveries that still give me pleasure, but listening to jazz was never quite as exciting as when it truly was what Whitney termed "the sound of surprise." It's a lot like..... well, I won't go there, but y'all know what I mean.

I should point out that jazz overwhelmingly became the focus of my listening, but I have always enjoyed a far wider genre horizon. Now that my listening is no longer as tied to my livelihood, I find myself enjoying whatever music complements my mood. That can be The Carter Family weaving its country spell, Wanda Landowska tripping the light fantastic over an ancient keyboard, Aretha commanding Respect, Woody's herd stampeding through the Northwest Passage, Mozart's exquisite Requiem, Bozie Sturdivant's mournful determination to remain above it all, a ceaseless Coltrane statement, Mahalia turning a Silent Night into a flood of childhood memories, a... well, you get the idea.

I would give anything for an opportunity to relive the feeling that came over me when I first heard Bessie sing on a scratchy recording and didn't have a clue as to who she was or what she represented--all I knew was that she reached out from that little radio speaker and changed my life. I would also love to experience again my subsequent discoveries, the wondrous music that made me spend close to 3 years manually turning discs on my broken HMV floor model with my index finger, because the spring was broken and I could not afford a new one. You really have to love the music to do that. The callouses on my finger have long since disappeared, but the memory lingers on. Imagine the feeling of unreality I later experienced as some of the names I had seen turn to gold and silver on my finger materialized as close and wonderful friends in a galaxy far, far away. Well, when you are a poor kid living beyond the garbage cans in a rear house walk-up in Copenhagen, Bourbon and 52nd Streets seem like something in a distant galaxy.

Back to Allen's point, I am not tired of jazz, but--with relatively few exceptions--the thrill is gone. These days, when I listen to jazz, the nostalgia factor is important--too important, I often think, but I guess that's natural, the memories I associate with the sound are bonuses of a sort. I will die loving jazz as much as ever and grateful for all that this music and its creative forces have done for me: the great sounds, the wonderful friends, the fantastic experiences. I hope that I have in some small measure made a token repayment, but what I received is priceless.

I do get carried away, don't I?

[jazzypaul]

WorldB3: ditto on Changeless. Was just listening to that the other day.

Well, there must be something in the water. I've been on a fairly huge Dead kick these days, and because my wife wants the trio to learn more 90's rock tunes, I've been going back and listening to a bunch of that stuff as well.

I just want to hear something different. And I'm in an odd spot right now where the straight ahead jazz isn't scratching that itch, but the stuff on the other side of the spectrum ain't doin' much either.

If someone's got a recommendation or two, I'm all ears.

[Bright Moments]

I would give anything for an opportunity to relive the feeling that came over me when I first heard Bessie sing on a scratchy recording and didn't have a clue as to who she was or what she represented--all I knew was that she reached out from that little radio speaker and changed my life.

try a little amy winehouse!!!