Wayne Shorter's most personal album

[shadowhillway]

For as long as I've been tired of "Footprints" the composition, I have believed that Wayne Shorter's most personal album is "Phantom Navigator". The soundtrack for a voyage into his mind. Also, it's the only record with the vocals of Wayne and Ana Maria!

[JSngry]

"Most personal" is something I'm less than sure about, but I certainly agree it's a very interesting album all the way around. I think that all three of those Columbia albums were all a little..."experimental", maybe not as fully realized as they could have been, but that happens sometimes. Now, High Life, that's the one that puts all those pieces together for me. That's a brilliant piece of work right there, one that is both fully unique and wholly realized.

The thing about all those albums, though, is that they're first and foremost compositional albums. People get all quizzicaled out about them, like "Why isn't Wayne playing more?" Well, because it's not about the "soloing", it's about the compositions.

[Guest Bill Barton]

Dave Douglas has been instrumental in reassessing those albums which were almost universally panned when they first came out. There are some truly superb compositions on those discs.

By the way, I'm by no means sick of hearing "Footprints" either... If you'd like to get another perspective on that piece, check out Von Freeman's version on Live at the Dakota if you haven't discovered it already.

[Tom Storer]

I hear all of Shorter's albums as being "personal." I can't think of anyone who has made less impersonal music.

[7/4]

Yeah, it's a bit of a strange question.

[AndrewHill]

Et Cetera and JuJu strike me as personal statements if I'm thinking of the question correctly. I find that when its just Wayne and rhythm he seems to express emotion and ideas more intimately through his horn then when he is accompanied by brass like on The All Seeing Eye for example (my favorite album of his). I got this impression too when I saw him a couple of years ago with Pattituci/Perez/Blade. The more intimate the surrounding the more Wayne seems to come across more as a personal artist.

Then again, I could've misunderstood the question too

[analogak]

like i always say, the LIVE stuff during the 80s (not the crap with santana) but his live bands were pretty cool. some of the best 80s jazz...with a heavy whiff of fusion funk sometimes...but it was cool how he loosened up some of those studio compositions from the 80s albums. but he always had interesting bands...sometimes with two synth players at once.

[Free For All]

By the way, I'm by no means sick of hearing "Footprints" either...

Me neither, as long as the turnaround is played with the correct changes.

F#-7(b5)/ B7alt./E7 alt./A7 alt./(back to C-)

Edited March 9, 2008 by Free For All

[JSngry]

Dave Douglas has been instrumental in reassessing those albums which were almost universally panned when they first came out. There are some truly superb compositions on those discs.

Interesting... I'm not a real heavy Douglas buff, so I'd like to find out what/how he's been doing to champion this music, which I myself have dug from Day One (does that make me ready to be Commander-In-Chief of Jazzdom? ) Has it been by covering some of the material, some written/verbal championing, or just what?

Those albums came at a funny time and in a funny way, really. What was left of the "fusion scene" found the music too abstract, almost all of the "jazz audience" was disappointed that Wayne wasn't going back acoustic, and in general, people just couldn't figure out the whats and whys of this music, and they really weren't too interested in doing so either. So it came and went pretty fast. But hardcore Wayne-heads like me and a few of my buddies were really into this stuff, the compositions, the forms, the textures, how it all sorta seemed like a Plugged Nickel solo broken down and put back together as a composition. Maybe not a lot of people wanted their Wayne that way then (or now...), but he did, and he put it out there in a form that was just dandy, I thought/think.

The only real "critical acknowledgment" of the intricate, personalized, and unique nature of this music that I ever saw outside of immediate reviews of the albums themselves was one guy in Musician magazine who was reviewing a Gary Thomas side, maybe Code Violations, and he said something like "Gary Thomas has some ideas floating around in his head that could make Wayne Shorter's current music sound like nursery rhymes" or something like that. Punkass as that might have been, at least somebody was hearing the Waynemusic of the time and recognizing it as something other than Weather Report redux or such.

The Dumpy one is correct too, the touring bands he had then were hot. They really opened up/loosened up those compositions (as working bands will tend to do...), and a view televised festival appearances were made. Probably some live shows have been Dimed, but that's a world I've yet to enter.

Have I mentioned that I really like the music on these albums? To me, that whole phase of Waynemusic culminates in High Life, an album which to my surprise caught the ear of a lot of people who had slept on the Columbia stuff. Maybe there was now enough space after Weather Report, maybe Wayne had been off the recording scene for a while, or maybe it was just such a damn perfectly realized album that people had to pay attention.

[John L]

it is interesting that High Life has always been much more popular among jazz musicians than among jazz listeners. Myself, I can't help but feel that the brilliant compositions on that album could still have been delivered with a bit more "punch." Still, new brilliant compositions are new brilliant compositions.

[JSngry]

it is interesting that High Life has always been much more popular among jazz musicians than among jazz listeners. Myself, I can't help but feel that the brilliant compositions on that album could still have been delivered with a bit more "punch." Still, new brilliant compositions are new brilliant compositions.

Well now, sir, that might be fodder for the "musician vs non-musician differences" thread, because, yeah, I can separate composition from "delivery". Same thing w/arrangements, I can hear really interesting writing delivered pretty poorly (or just not quite "right") and still dig the writing itself. Don't know if that's a more or less exclusive musician's trait, though. But having been through, as both writer and player, the scenario of fine writing/composing not being delivered as...fully as possible due to the realities of life (limited prep time, the needs of the writing exceeding the skills/experience levels of some/all the players, improper/insensitive recording balance, etc etc etc), I can cut everybody involved some slack - sometimes - and look pst what actually is into shat could/would/should be.

On this particular record, though, I don't really have that problem. Maybe it's "digital-itis" or something, that wierd lack of "there" that a lot of recordings from that time were still suffering from. I made my peace with that long ago, at least when the music demanded that I do so, and as you suggest, this is certainly music to which I would be willing to yield.

[sidewinder]

Maybe it's "digital-itis" or something, that wierd lack of "there" that a lot of recordings from that time were still suffering from

I thought at the time that the compositions and the conception in general on 'Phantom Navigator', 'Joy Ryder' and (less so I guess) 'Atlantis' were great but thought the recording was less than the greatest and that the albums suffered from some dated electronics and rhythms of the period. No doubting the unique compositional vision behind these though. Totally agree that on 'High Life' that it really gelled - maybe he had a band by then that really grasped the nettle - and maybe Verve allowed a bit more preparation time.

With time, for sure, the importance of these albums has only been enhanced - and it is interesting that Wayne draws heavily from them (including the likes of 'The Soothsayer' and 'Schizophrenia') in his programmes for his present-day quartet.

Edited March 9, 2008 by sidewinder

[Tom Storer]

the touring bands he had then were hot. They really opened up/loosened up those compositions (as working bands will tend to do...), and a view televised festival appearances were made. Probably some live shows have been Dimed, but that's a world I've yet to enter.

I guess it's possible that many live shows from those years have been Dimed, yes.

[Guest Bill Barton]

Dave Douglas has been instrumental in reassessing those albums which were almost universally panned when they first came out. There are some truly superb compositions on those discs.

Interesting... I'm not a real heavy Douglas buff, so I'd like to find out what/how he's been doing to champion this music, which I myself have dug from Day One (does that make me ready to be Commander-In-Chief of Jazzdom? ) Has it been by covering some of the material, some written/verbal championing, or just what?...

I was referring primarily to Douglas's recording from 1997 on Arabesque titled Stargazer, which features music written by or dedicated to Shorter.

On his website Douglas has this to say regarding the Sextet, Stargazer and the other "tribute" CDs (Soul on Soul for Mary Lou Williams and In Our Lifetime for Booker Little):

"In my work for jazz sextet, I've found it helpful to closely examine the music of highly influential jazz musicians, transcribing and rearranging their music and filtering the elements that I find through my own sensibilities. I try to rediscover the original sense of discovery and freshness in the work, helping me to write new music for the musicians of today."

I recall reading an interview with Douglas sometime back where he went into considerable depth about this era of Shorter's recordings but I can't for the life of me remember the source (Downbeat? Jazz Times? Jazziz? Definitely not Cadence or CODA...)

Edited March 10, 2008 by Bill Barton

[Big Al]

I hear all of Shorter's albums as being "personal." I can't think of anyone who has made less impersonal music.

Couldn't agree more.

[crabgrass]

I loved Wayne's breakdown on the end of the Rolling Stone's "Bridges To Babylon". Sublime.

[JSngry]

I recall reading an interview with Douglas sometime back where he went into considerable depth about this era of Shorter's recordings but I can't for the life of me remember the source (Downbeat? Jazz Times? Jazziz? Definitely not Cadence or CODA...)

If you can think of it, please post here, ok? I'd very much like to read it.

[Aggie87]

Stargazer liner notes:

"Stargazer pays homage to Wayne Shorter, composer, saxophonist and one of the great innovators of 20th century music. It is the second studio recording of this group; our first one was "In Our Lifetime", a 1994 tribute to trumpeter/composer Booker Little.

Wayne Shorter's open mind and creative genius have made him a constant presence on the forefront of composed and improvised music for four decades -- decades marked by rapid and radical changes in society, music, and art. His intense melodic gift, rhythmic ingenuity, harmonic sophistication and sublime sense of structure are some of the elements in his music that have particularly touched me. There is also an ever-present warmth and humanity in his music that I find mirrored in his writings and his approach to life and art. His music seems to ask us to abandon our hang-ups and preoccupations with stylistic limitations and other barriers to direct communication. When you look at the full range of his output it's truly amazing to take in the enormous breadth of what he has done. All of the many phases of his career have inspired my work and the compositions I've written for this album reflect that inspiration. It is with profound respect that I dedicate them to him.

As for his compositions on this disc: "Pug Nose" is the earliest one, dating from 1959's Introducing Wayne Shorter on Veejay. "Diana" was recorded for the Columbia album Native Dancer in 1974 and again this year on 1 + 1, the duo recording with Herbie Hancock. "On the Milky Way Express" appears on High Life, released in 1995. Check out the originals or any of his many other recordings now thankfully available on CD. Also look for new works as Shorter remains an important and sometimes controversial figure in the art of music.

-Dave Douglas, June 1997"

[Guest Bill Barton]

I recall reading an interview with Douglas sometime back where he went into considerable depth about this era of Shorter's recordings but I can't for the life of me remember the source (Downbeat? Jazz Times? Jazziz? Definitely not Cadence or CODA...)

If you can think of it, please post here, ok? I'd very much like to read it.

Will do. No guarantees though. I can't even remember what I had for breakfast this morning

[JSngry]

You're doing better than me - I can't even remember if I had breakfast this morning!

[marcello]

I have to say that when Wayne Shorter started leading a small group again and I heard them, what they were doing—he’s always been an inspiration for me, but I think that the way that they were doing it was so, I hate the word “revolutionary,” but revolutionary! It was a way of taking the songs and then throwing out your assumptions about the way they’re supposed to be played, and who’s supposed to play what part, and what’s supposed to happen when, and what does the idea of tempo, and key, and texture mean. And they shook it all up and poured it out on the table and it’s this beautiful mosaic of all the constituent parts of the music—but without the glue of all of our assumptions about the way it’s supposed to be.

Dave Douglas: Music, Commerce and Culture Wars

[Michael Weiss]

"Most personal" might be measured by total creative output by one man - compositionally and improvised. Atlantis, Phantom Navigator, Joy Ryder and High Life in particular, definitely fit this criteria down to the smallest detail. As I've posted elsewhere, these recordings have had a huge influence on my writing. I've been on the soapbox for a while about how, IMO, a greater proportion of composition in the mix is crucial for jazz to move forward. At last year's JazzImprov convention I gave a clinic titled, Get More Out of Your Tunes: Transform Your Songs Into Full-fledged Compositions.

At my 2004 IAJE Conference clinic, A Treaure-Trove of Innovation: The Pen of Wayne Shorter - A Survey of the Past Twenty Years, I analyzed several excerpts from Wayne's scores of "Face on the Barroom Floor," "On the Eve of Departure," "Remote Control," "Pandora Awakened," "High Life" and others. When attendees saw the level of detail in the scores they didn't care about the synths and drum machines anymore! I've presented this clinic at a couple of schools, IU and W.Paterson, but you'd be surprised how little interest there is.

Earlier Topics on pretty much the same subject:

Wayne Shorter in the 80s, what do people think?

Wayne Shorter Compositions

I have to say that when Wayne Shorter started leading a small group again and I heard them, what they were doing—he’s always been an inspiration for me, but I think that the way that they were doing it was so, I hate the word “revolutionary,” but revolutionary! It was a way of taking the songs and then throwing out your assumptions about the way they’re supposed to be played, and who’s supposed to play what part, and what’s supposed to happen when, and what does the idea of tempo, and key, and texture mean. And they shook it all up and poured it out on the table and it’s this beautiful mosaic of all the constituent parts of the music—but without the glue of all of our assumptions about the way it’s supposed to be.

It's really amazing how Wayne keeps turning his music on its head. The scores are still just as detailed, but they jump around or sit still on any given bar.

But you're correct in terms of how he chooses to break down the roles of soloist and accompanist. It's being passed around all the time.

[Chuck Nessa]

Most personal? In order to determine this, I think we'd need input from Mr. Shorter and feel many would not accept his choice.

[shadowhillway]

Although I am serving mainly as a mere troll for '80s Wayne here, I am happy to instigate. What constitutes "most personal album" is certainly open to interpretation. All I'm saying is if I shrunk myself and boarded a microscopic spaceship and flew into Wayne's ear and brain, "Phantom Navigator" would be playing on the ship's speakers.

[Chuck Nessa]