Joshua Redman

[Jim Alfredson]

But you also gotta remember that those guys (and a lot of others here) have been listening to (and in some cases, playing or recording) this music longer than some others of us have been alive or at least following jazz.

Perhaps this might be part of the "problem"?

[Big Al]

post-innovative coition. -_-

Maybe THAT'S what's missing from today's jazz.....

[clifford_thornton]

But you also gotta remember that those guys (and a lot of others here) have been listening to (and in some cases, playing or recording) this music longer than some others of us have been alive or at least following jazz.

Perhaps this might be part of the "problem"?

Yes, perhaps.

Perspective can be a "problem," but somebody's always going to have it (hopefully).

But doesn't perspective have little to do with the "industry" as we're talking about it here?

[ejp626]

But you also gotta remember that those guys (and a lot of others here) have been listening to (and in some cases, playing or recording) this music longer than some others of us have been alive or at least following jazz.

Perhaps this might be part of the "problem"?

Maybe a Kiddie's Korner and an Old-Timer's Lounge will help us keep the peace. Or we can create a fig icon, and if someone is particularly grouchy about the low standards of the day we say Fig You.

[clifford_thornton]

This one is a hell of a lot more civil than, like, the OP thread or even the KV thread.

[A Lark Ascending]

I teach 17 year olds with a greater understanding of the difference between interpretation and truth, subjective opinion and objective fact, than some of the self-anointed 'intellectuals' on this thread.

How does anyone get beyond 25 still believing that their view of the world is how it is?

Edited March 24, 2008 by Bev Stapleton

[RDK]

But you also gotta remember that those guys (and a lot of others here) have been listening to (and in some cases, playing or recording) this music longer than some others of us have been alive or at least following jazz.

Perhaps this might be part of the "problem"?

Yes, perhaps.

Perspective can be a "problem," but somebody's always going to have it (hopefully).

But doesn't perspective have little to do with the "industry" as we're talking about it here?

Perspective is all well and good - I like to think I've attained at least some of it myself - but where does it leave the jazz community - hell, the entire musical genre - if all of our "giants" (save, perhaps, Rollins) are all dead and gone? Yeah, one can complain that Josh is "good enough," "the best of the rest," backhand dismiss him as a "very good player," whatever, but I'll be damned if I limit myself to only the greats. In that case, why move beyond Armstrong, Bird, Parker, Monk, Mingus, Coltrane, etc.? Heck, even Mabern is a hack in that company.

[clifford_thornton]

I'm with you, man, and I don't think anybody like Sangry, Nessa, Allen would disagree. In fact, there's a little talk about this in another thread about the '75 Down Beat poll winners.

Sangry mentioned something about the Disney-World phenomenon, wherein "everybody's welcome." That is both excellent and in some ways problematic - as the cream doesn't rise to the top nearly as easily, if at all. You still gotta fish around there, but damned if I haven't found some fresh cream and even some good yogurt while I'm at it.

Edited March 24, 2008 by clifford_thornton

[Guest Bill Barton]

not long ago I was reading a book of Richard Gilman's critcism and he expressed an admiration for art that, to paraphrase him , predicts the next thing we will think, the next gesture we will be making; it tells us what we will be doing and thinking next - and this is a perfect description of Coltrane, Ornette, Bud Powell, Louis Armstrong - but not of Josh Redman. the next ideas and gestures that will be made in response to those events, before those gestures are even made.

this is a very high and difficult standard for art, but it is a necessary standard; without it, things would just, well, come to a stop -

Allen and everybody else.

Are there any doors left to open or new paths to be blazed that haven't already come before?

Jazz is funny in that you have to have to be able to be create something new yet your judged by the past and how/if you play something from the past.

Seems like you are criticized either by going to far off or staying to close. Even Ornette and Hank M had their critics back in the day.

Personally, I feel that there are many doors still open and quite a few musicians now active are stepping through them.

But you also gotta remember that those guys (and a lot of others here) have been listening to (and in some cases, playing or recording) this music longer than some others of us have been alive or at least following jazz.

Perhaps this might be part of the "problem"?

Maybe a Kiddie's Korner and an Old-Timer's Lounge will help us keep the peace. Or we can create a fig icon, and if someone is particularly grouchy about the low standards of the day we say Fig You.

Actually, that sounds like a pretty idea!

This one is a hell of a lot more civil than, like, the OP thread or even the KV thread.

Amen to that! I find it enormously self-centered and hipper-than-thou to diss one musician in the process of praising another. Those threads were so full of bile, anger and ill-will that I eventually just ignored them.

Edited March 24, 2008 by Bill Barton

[Alexander Hawkins]

and I don't find jazz boring per se, I find the current practice of jazz boring, frequently - which is why I play, to find a solution to this problem of boring jazz.

YES!!! (I find my cop-outs and indulgences in the word 'frequently'; but otherwise - this resonates EXTREMELY strongly!)

[Chuck Nessa]

But you also gotta remember that those guys (and a lot of others here) have been listening to (and in some cases, playing or recording) this music longer than some others of us have been alive or at least following jazz.

Perhaps this might be part of the "problem"?

And it's a problem for.......................

[Jim Alfredson]

Problem wasn't the right word, hence the quotation marks. I just don't get why people have to be so jaded and negative.

If the modern artists that are making the music nowadays suck so much, why bother listening at all? Just keep spinning the greats and don't worry about it. So the "media" keeps putting people on pedestles as the next big thing and they don't live up to the hype; this is new? Why get all bent out of shape about it and lash out at a guy who's making a living playing music. There's worse things he could be doing, right?

I don't get the vitriol aimed at musicians playing this music. If they were really "fakes" or "sellouts", wouldn't they choose a much easier music to play and make money with?

Sure, there are people out there who I don't care for, but I don't think they are "fakes" or "crap" or "schmucks". They have every right to play music as you or I or anyone does. If I don't like it, thank goodness there's literally millions of other things I can listen to and hundreds of millions of other things I can do.

So why get all bent out of shape about it?

The giants are almost all gone. They may never be any more. That doesn't mean that other people are producing music that's totally not worth listening to.

Or maybe it isn't that there aren't any more giants, but rather that they don't look (or sound) like the ones before.

Just my humble opinion at this particular moment.

[RDK]

Just my humble opinion at this particular moment.

And it's an opinion shared by many of us.

Good post, Jim.

[Larry Kart]

Actually, Jim, you and Joe and Randy are perfect examples of what the real difference is -- as is, FWIW, Harold Mabern, whose name came up on this thread a while ago as someone who is/was not a "giant," therefore the implication ( by the person who brought up his name) is why don't we "elitists" dismiss him too, because he's no Bird, Pres, Coltrane, Bix, Louis, etc. The differences are the linked issues of individuality and genuineness. If you've got those things (plus talent) going for you -- as the members of Organissimo do, as Harold Mabern does, as a lot of people who are not outright flaming "geniuses" do -- then the results will (allowing for individual tastes) deservedly capture the mind and satisfy the soul. The problem that some of of us have with some of the people we've been yacking about is that while these guys may seem to be just trying to make a living playing music, there is arguably something askew or even half-broken in them in the place where individuality and genuineness, under prior prevailing normal circumstances, used to meet. That is, we're not just talking about (in some of these cases) about how these guys have been marketed by others but about (or so it seems to some of us) their whole basic orientation toward what they do, one that more or less precludes the possibility of much genuineness ever arising in them. As for the "wouldn't they choose a much easier music to play and make money with?" argument, the answer to that I think is that their approach (if not perhaps their conscious goal) amounts to "I'm gonna be a reasonable-sized frog in a small, shrinking pond." To pull that off is not a snap, but it's an easier route to take than a whole lot of others that come to mind, especially when you've got just the right kind of "reasonable-sized frog in a small, shrinking pond" help, as these guys tend to do.

[AllenLowe]

missing the point, guys - we don;t hate these people - we just dislike some of the music they play - some of it IS worse than other (like, for example, my response to the Mehldau solo performance - that performance was truly offensive in its self absorption, and needs to be cited as such; I had a visceral reaction, true, and it was justified) - I don;t sit around listening to the dead jazzers and whistle about the old days - I YEARN for novelty, for someone to look at this music from a fresh perspective - and I find this on occasion (saw a weird punk rock improv band last year at a little book store; they were fresh and original and creative and as good as any better-known jazz group I have seen recently; saw Iverson solo about 5 years ago; reminded me of Jaki Byard in his ability to reinvent his material; saw Joe McPhee around the same time; always new and self-challenging; reading Marshall McLuhan - original thinker, sees things that nobody else sees but which are right in front of us) - so it's not a question of comparison with the big guys of yester-year - hey, listen to ROswell RUdd; at age 70+ he's still inventing; the music I played with Julius Hemphill 15 years ago has more immediacy and freshness than a barrel of these guys -

listen to 1970s thrash; No New York - sounds newer today than most of the jazz I hear -

[JSngry]

How does anyone get beyond 25 still believing that their view of the world is how it is?

By being right.

[RDK]

While I obviously appreciate the greatness of the 9s and 10s, I will cop to the occassional enjoyment of many of the 4s and 6s on that list as well.

But what does the Russian judge think?

[JSngry]

Or maybe it isn't that there aren't any more giants, but rather that they don't look (or sound) like the ones before.

Agreed, and to the point where I'd say that they're most likely not making/playing anything like the music made by the ones before. That's something to think about, that is...maybe, as is maybe the possibility that the new giants are still relatively embryonic, as is the world in which they will become giants (or inspire those who will be).

But you know, one thing I'm hearing in damn near all of the comments here is a variant of "so what if XYZ isn't as great as those who came before, they're still..."

STOP.

HOLD IT RIGHT THERE.

If it's damn near...unanimous that XYZ isn't as great as those who came before, where's the beef? What is there to get upset about? If we're all saying the same thing up to and including the REAL point here, doesn't the disagreement come down to "I know it's not as great as BLAHBLAHBLAH but I like it anyway"?

Well, hey, good then! I for one have explicitly stated that different peoples might be getting something different out of these guys than me, and vive le difference, I guess, although if it's going to turn into a bitch-fest about how there's something wrong with those of us who ain't getting that something out of it, then six of one, apples and oranges of the other, and how come ain't nobody talking about that Howard Wiley side?

Edited March 25, 2008 by JSngry

[Chuck Nessa]

How does anyone get beyond 25 still believing that their view of the world is how it is?

By being right.

Twice as right as a 12 year old.

[JSngry]

But what does the Russian judge think?

That any discussion not including the Ganelin Trio is lacking in merit?

[clifford_thornton]

[papsrus]

Is it possible to flip this around and talk about which living musicians/bands/carnival acts some of the more critically inclined/aged/jaded here find inspiring/rewarding/9 - 9.5 or higher on the edc 10-point rating system? I'm not too concerned with Jazz Giants in the making (or record companies' promotional efforts). But rather the music.

And I'm taking notes. (seriously ... Empty Cage Quartet).

Bill Barton put together a list here (off the top of his head I'm sure ... hope you don't mind me cribbin' it Bill) of musicians he feels are making some worthwhile music today. They're all alive, so far as I can tell. Worth at least some attention. A few others have been mentioned in passing here. I'd toss Matana Roberts into the mix (for the sake of argument, I guess).

... anyone with a half-full glass, feel free.

Edited March 25, 2008 by papsrus

[Indestructible!]

Well, hey, good then! I for one have explicitly stated that different peoples might be getting something different out of these guys than me, and vive le difference, I guess, although if it's going to turn into a bitch-fest about how there's something wrong with those of us who ain't getting that something out of it, then six of one, apples and oranges of the other, and how come ain't nobody talking about that Howard Wiley side?

Nah,

This isn't a bitch-fest because people have differing views... and Lord knows, Jim, that your views are probably the most respected on this board... the bitch-fest occurs when Brian drops terms like "simps", "pricks", "dipshits", etc. on those that disagree with him and his views. Hey, that's his schtick, and he's got it down to a science... but it definitely elevates the "bitchiness" of these threads.

Ah well... if he hadn't waded in this thread probably would've had a few replies and died a quiet death... now we're up to what, seven pages or so? Good times!!!

Cheers,

Shane

[7/4]

Ah well... if he hadn't waded in this thread probably would've had a few replies and died a quiet death... now we're up to what, seven pages or so? Good times!!!

If a regular board member didn't generate this kind of activity, we'd have to wait for someone from outside to show up and troll. It was so much fun the last couple of weeks, then all quiet...hey, someone had to fill the void.

I had to stop and try to remember who the fuck this Brian is that you're talking about...it took a second.

.

[Guest Bill Barton]

Is it possible to flip this around and talk about which living musicians/bands/carnival acts some of the more critically inclined/aged/jaded here find inspiring/rewarding/9 - 9.5 or higher on the edc 10-point rating system? I'm not too concerned with Jazz Giants in the making (or record companies' promotional efforts). But rather the music.

And I'm taking notes. (seriously ... Empty Cage Quartet).

Bill Barton put together a list here (off the top of his head I'm sure ... hope you don't mind me cribbin' it Bill) of musicians he feels are making some worthwhile music today. They're all alive, so far as I can tell. Worth at least some attention. A few others have been mentioned in passing here. I'd toss Matana Roberts into the mix (for the sake of argument, I guess).

... anyone with a half-full glass, feel free.

Nope, don't mind a bit... And it is indeed a totally impromptu, of-the-moment list. I haven't heard Matana Roberts yet but a number of folks whose opinions I respect put her high on the list of interesting, innovative currently active musicians. There are probably other players in - for lack of a better term - the mainstream who are also making valuable music but they're a bit under my radar because of my personal tastes and the logistics of only so much time in a day to listen.

An example of a cat who has been completely out of my consciousness for quite some time is Redman the Younger. Back when he put out that live at the Village Vanguard double set I played it a bit on the radio show I had at the time which was more overtly mainstream oriented than what I do now. Honestly, I haven't heard anything by him since then, now over a decade ago (1995). I do remember being mildly impressed by his version of "St. Thomas" on that set: nice cadenza. He's always struck me as a pleasant but not terribly memorable improviser. And I've never heard him in live performance, which may be a whole 'nother story. Not in general my cup of tea. Redman the Elder on the other hand is one of my all-time favorites.

Oh, and the Seattle judge gives the (original) Ganelin Trio a 9.