Big fire in Universal studios destroyed jazz recordings?

[Christiern]

I recall being dismayed in the early sixties when Stanley Dance told me that Decca (mca, probably), in an effort to preserve their jazz archive, was systematically transferring their masters and adding reverb! I heard some of these transfers and there was no presence on them, whatsoever—cavernous.

[AllenLowe]

there were tons of those - disgusting and wasteful - HOWEVER - there were significant LP releases without reverb - with excellent transfer quality -

[paul secor]

And just as I was planning a pilgrimage to Decca.

Good one Chris.

Hey, this is the way of the world. I'm fascinated by antiquity. I cannot even begin to fully imagine all the marvels lost forever. . . .

It's been said many times before, but this is what you get when you live in a throwaway society/culture.

[porcy62]

And just as I was planning a pilgrimage to Decca.

Good one Chris.

Hey, this is the way of the world. I'm fascinated by antiquity. I cannot even begin to fully imagine all the marvels lost forever. . . .

It's been said many times before, but this is what you get when you live in a throwaway society/culture.

True, look at the old Yankee Stadium, I mean if a guy like me would visit NYC, a hot dog during a match would have been a highlight.

Edited September 21, 2008 by porcy62

[Chuck Nessa]

And just as I was planning a pilgrimage to Decca.

Good one Chris.

Hey, this is the way of the world. I'm fascinated by antiquity. I cannot even begin to fully imagine all the marvels lost forever. . . .

It's been said many times before, but this is what you get when you live in a throwaway society/culture.

True, look at the old Yankee Stadium, I mean if a guy like me would visit NYC, a hot dog during a match would have been a highlight.

Yup. Only time I saw it was from a train platform when I realized I'd missed my transfer to get to Rudy's studio. When I saw the stadium, I knew I'd messed up.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

you mean any time items or metal parts for CAMDEN related issues were trashed?

[JSngry]

Camden, NJ, not Camden the label.

[medjuck]

I find ALL this very depressing. Do you know that only a small percentage of all the silent film ever made are still extant? There were probably masters lost (eg alternate takes) for which there are no copies.

[mmilovan]

I find ALL this very depressing. Do you know that only a small percentage of all the silent film ever made are still extant? There were probably masters lost (eg alternate takes) for which there are no copies.

And this includes ledgers lists, photographs and other written memorabilia, then probably acetates that are in better shape and sound than overdubs found in commercial records... Yesterday started counting how many important artists recorded for Decca during those years: Louis, Lunceford, Billie, Jimmy Dorsey, Count Basie!!! I'm deeply depressed too...

[RDK]

And just as I was planning a pilgrimage to Decca.

Good one Chris.

Hey, this is the way of the world. I'm fascinated by antiquity. I cannot even begin to fully imagine all the marvels lost forever. . . .

It's been said many times before, but this is what you get when you live in a throwaway society/culture.

I wouldn't necessarily blame this on a "throwaway society" though. I mean, how much can we actually hope to "keep?" This probably deserves another thread, I don't mean to derail this one, and I certainly don't want anyone to think I'm insensitive to the historical loss here, but seriously, most art is disposable - or at least transitory - and only a very small percentage of the whole is truly important and/or genuinely "artistic." As someone in one of the above-mentioned links noted, I think it was Decca that released a ton of shit recordings during the 40s-60s that few here would ever care to hear again. Obviously there are important pieces mixed in with the crap - but do we (and, increasingly, can we) hope to save it all, especially with the oppressively strict public domain issues that make it ever harder to release the stuff with little commercial upside?

On another thread on another forum, people were bemoaning the lost/erased video tapes of old TV shows, which were wiped out far more thoroughly than any music catalogs ever were. At the time, of course, people thought of that as a more transitory medium - unlike buying, say an LP record, a TV show was broadcast only to never be (expected at least never to be) seen again as there would be something new on the very next week - and much of that history is now lost. But look at the sheer numbers there and tell me what should/could be saved. With 4 networks showing 3 hours of programming each night for 50 years, that's over 218,000 hours of programming (and that's a very conservative estimate)! Yeah, losing and/or destroying anything by Duke Ellington is a tragedy in my book, and perhaps even worse is losing the more obscure stuff by artists who aren't stars and whose legacies are now lost, but I think it's far more important to dwell on the music that has been released during the CD boom of the last twenty years. That, and to seriously reevaluate the PD laws that keep the more obscure stuff from seeing the light of day in the first place. Besides, this is jazz: aren't we supposed to be looking forward anyway?

Now where's that "Devil's Advocate" emotican?

[medjuck]

The article mikeweil links to has led me to this incredible site.. The bad thing about it is that you may end up spending hours, days, listening to thousands of cylinders.

The ODJB may not have been as pioneering as believed.

The audio quality is amazing. Listen to this version of "Didn't He Ramble" sung by Arthur Collins 106 years ago.

Of course e don't know what other people who didn't record were playing at the time of the ODJB but whatever you think of the ODJB, they were playing jazz (jass?). I wouldn't say that about Arthur Collins. Nevertheless thanks for posting this. It's fascinating. I'm going to try to drop in to see the archive as it's here in Santa Barbara.

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

STEELY DAN ISN'T SO SONICALY PERFECT AFTER ALL, LOL:

The engineers who worked with Steely Dan on transferring the group's "Royal Scam" album tapes to digital in 1982 for eventual CD release says that MCA cou... Read Moreldn't find the analog master for one whole LP side of the album..

"These guys searched and searched and finally had to use an (earlier) backup digital copy for that side of the album. They barely got the tape to play--some clown had apparently tried to play it on an analog machine. The edges were all wrinkled There's a photo somewhere of the engineers holding the tape down on the recording heads with a Q-Tip so it would track properly."

[gmonahan]

If indeed we've lost all the Decca masters and materials, it's a shattering loss. Decca owned the 1928-32 Brunswicks as well as everything it recorded itself. Some has been well reissued--the early Ellingtons, the Basies, even the Armstrongs, and there are fair versions of the Luncefords, but the label wasn't at all systematic about some of its other holdings, including classic swing stuff by people like Eddie Condon, Jack Teagarden, Chick Webb, Lionel Hampton, and a host of other black big bands, people like Claude Hopkins Don Redman, Benny Carter, and Lucky Millinder. Then there's Bing Crosby, who recorded exclusively for that label for years. Not a great jazz artist, but a pretty important popular singer. I haven't even touched on the white bands--Jimmy Dorsey, Jan Savitt, Bob Crosby.

There's also the Coral material from the 50s. Was that lost too? Lots and lots of unissued treasures there.

Deeply, deeply depressing.

Greg Mo

[AllenLowe]

the Brunswicks, exactly, and the Deccas among others - did a little rummaging through my collection and posted to another group - here's what I founds/said:

1) Jay McShann/the Bird band: 10 inch and 12 inch (both mono, not re-done for fake stereo) - both of these have better sound than the subsequent CD reissue -

2) 12 inch LP: KC Jazz that has great sound - ML Williams, Buster Smith, Eddie Durham, et al -

3) 10 inch Brunswicks that include Venuti/Lang, Teschmacher/jJimmy Noone/Red Nichols/Bennie Goodman/ Adrian Rollini/various other of the Austin High guys -

4) A Bunny Berigan LP with stunningly good sound

5) An LP called Jazzy Jugs and Washboards (1920s blues etc) that has, once again, stunningly good sound -

6) Blues Box one and Two - 2 LP boxes that MCA put out of recordings from 1934-1942 - includes Georgia White, Helen Humes, Frankie Jaxon, Victoria Spivey, and MANY more two numerous to list -

7) LPs by Duke Ellington and Jabbo Smith of 1920s music; excellent sound -

now I may be wrong, but the Brunswicks seemed to have appeared on and off under the Universal/Decca/MCA imprint - and if there were masters from Brunswick and other labels in that warehouse it seems that we may have lost some irretrievable music -

and just as an addendum: I have also heard amazing transfers from master of 1920s blues/songster recordings of: Jim Jackson, Furry Lewis, Leroy Carr, Chippie Hill, Blind Boy Fuller and more - all of which were under the Decca/MCA holdings in the 1990s - to have heard these was like being in the same room as these justifably legenday performers - to think that more of same may have gone up in smoke is beyond tragic - -

Edited September 23, 2008 by AllenLowe

[Big Beat Steve]

6) Blues Box one and Two - 2 LP boxes that MCA put out of recordings from 1934-1942 - includes Georgia White, Helen Humes, Frankie Jaxon, Victoria Spivey, and MANY more two numerous to list -

Great compilations (as are the others you list). The strange thing about those Blues Boxes issued in the 70s (bought them from my student's budget back and was glad I did) is that Robert Hertwig, the one who compiled those boxes back then and who now runs a small collector label and mail order service of his own (Bob's Music) has re-reissued a good sampling of that music on CD not too long ago. I wonder if he was just taking advantage of P.D. laws or if transfers of first-generation masters for this music exist elsewhere too.

Otherwise, I fully agree that if all those Deccas and Brunswicks, etc. really went up in smoke it would be a huge, tragic loss. I'd rather not think about what actually was destroyed. Though I tend to be even more worried about post-1945 recordings than about pre-war recordings. Hasn't the pre-war blues reissue field been been covered pretty well by Document, RST and others, so at least there is SOME reissue available (even if the sound isn't always top notch), but a quick glance at post-1945 R&B discographies, for example, shows quite a lot of unissued and never-reissued material. So that's now possibly lost forever.

OTOH, would we EVER have seen this unissued material? Would Universal have cared about comprehensive releases of unissued 30s/40s/50s minority interest material (that no P.D. label would have had access to) at all?

Edited September 23, 2008 by Big Beat Steve

[AllenLowe]

most of it has been reissued, yes - but for me it is all about sound quality and masters - hearing this 1920s stuff from the masters is sometimes astounding - it's like you're in the same room; closest thing we'll get to a time machine; otherwise it's like the difference between viewing a foggy art print in a book and seeing the original up close - this is priceless stuff, and shame on them for not preserving it-

[Big Beat Steve]

I agree, of course, and all I wanted to point at is that in a pinch it is better to have some needle-drop reissues that make this music accessible at all than to this music being totally inaccessible.

And I still wonder if that media giant could have been bothered reissuing vintage material directly from the masters on a really comprehensive scale at all. I understand a box of early Armstrong recordings with astounding fidelity was reissued some time ago, but beyond that - what would they have done with other artists who'd appeal to an "in-crowd" of a scant few collectors only? Hence my regrets about all those unissued recordings too.

[AllenLowe]

correct, from a corporate viewpoint - it just would have been nice if they could have looked at this from a heritage/American history perspective; like an archaeological dig, a good art museum, the Smithsonian - it they had, we would still have this stuff -

Edited September 23, 2008 by AllenLowe

[bruce talbot]

the Brunswicks, exactly, and the Deccas among others - did a little rummaging through my collection and posted to another group - here's what I founds/said:

1) Jay McShann/the Bird band: 10 inch and 12 inch (both mono, not re-done for fake stereo) - both of these have better sound than the subsequent CD reissue -

2) 12 inch LP: KC Jazz that has great sound - ML Williams, Buster Smith, Eddie Durham, et al -

3) 10 inch Brunswicks that include Venuti/Lang, Teschmacher/jJimmy Noone/Red Nichols/Bennie Goodman/ Adrian Rollini/various other of the Austin High guys -

4) A Bunny Berigan LP with stunningly good sound

5) An LP called Jazzy Jugs and Washboards (1920s blues etc) that has, once again, stunningly good sound -

6) Blues Box one and Two - 2 LP boxes that MCA put out of recordings from 1934-1942 - includes Georgia White, Helen Humes, Frankie Jaxon, Victoria Spivey, and MANY more two numerous to list -

7) LPs by Duke Ellington and Jabbo Smith of 1920s music; excellent sound -

now I may be wrong, but the Brunswicks seemed to have appeared on and off under the Universal/Decca/MCA imprint - and if there were masters from Brunswick and other labels in that warehouse it seems that we may have lost some irretrievable music -

and just as an addendum: I have also heard amazing transfers from master of 1920s blues/songster recordings of: Jim Jackson, Furry Lewis, Leroy Carr, Chippie Hill, Blind Boy Fuller and more - all of which were under the Decca/MCA holdings in the 1990s - to have heard these was like being in the same room as these justifably legenday performers - to think that more of same may have gone up in smoke is beyond tragic - -

I have the McShanns - they're excellent. Also on LP along with the KC album, George Avakian's first production - the Chicago Jazz Album with superb Condon, Wettling and McPartland sessions, beautifully recorded and reproduced. Teagarden reissues from the Red Nichols days, and Lunceford and Andy Kirk of course. The little that was reissued on CD was overseen (sic) by Orrin Keepnews and sounds appalling.

[AllenLowe]

calling Larry Kart - Larry, don't know if you saw my email or my prior posts here - but the loss of the 1928-32 Brunswick masters is historically catastrophic - I tried to post about that on the OTHER group you referred to but my post was rejected - but I repeat, this is awful news, as the Brunswick label of those years encompassed blues, songsters, jazz (incl. Duke and Jabbo Smith) and country/hillbilly of the most beautiful kind -

[Guest Bill Barton]

The article mikeweil links to has led me to this incredible site.. The bad thing about it is that you may end up spending hours, days, listening to thousands of cylinders.

The ODJB may not have been as pioneering as believed.

The audio quality is amazing. Listen to this version of "Didn't He Ramble" sung by Arthur Collins 106 years ago.

Thanks for the link, Chris. This is indeed an incredible site. Addictive too... Vernon Dalhart! Fred Van Eps! In fact, while listening to the "Alexander's Ragtime Band Medley" from Van Eps the thought crossed my mind that even though it was recorded in 1912 it sounds more "modern" to my ears than Bela Fleck's playing does on the new McCoy Tyner CD.

[Teasing the Korean]

"Literally years in the making, this set introduces 23 previously unreleased gems approved by the artist himself. It was delayed by a fire on the Universal Studios lot in California which took much of the original Jamal trio LP masters with it and our search to reconstruct the music on the set from a variety on analog and digital sources sitting in vaults around the world. It’s been a hell of a long time coming and we hope you enjoy The Complete Ahmad Jamal Trio Argo Sessions."

[David Ayers]

"Literally years in the making, this set introduces 23 previously unreleased gems approved by the artist himself. It was delayed by a fire on the Universal Studios lot in California which took much of the original Jamal trio LP masters with it and our search to reconstruct the music on the set from a variety on analog and digital sources sitting in vaults around the world. It’s been a hell of a long time coming and we hope you enjoy The Complete Ahmad Jamal Trio Argo Sessions."

Thanks for posting this. Let's hope the quality is not too dramatically compromised.

[happy the clown]

So you have to wonder what exactly they mean by LP masters, if that's different from session reels if any of those survive. The fact that there are 23 unreleased takes seem to indicate that some do, and the sound from those may be superior to LP masters.

[Teasing the Korean]

So you have to wonder what exactly they mean by LP masters, if that's different from session reels if any of those survive. The fact that there are 23 unreleased takes seem to indicate that some do, and the sound from those may be superior to LP masters.

Good point. Being that it's Universal that we're talking about, it's probably all over the map. I know that much of the ABC and Dunhill material, for example, only exists in stereo mixdowns. Many of the the multi tracks and mono mixes were trashed. Considering how many labels became part of Universal, they probably never had any idea what they had to begin with, and now they don't know what was lost until they look for it.