What's Gone Wrong With Rock?

[Shawn]

There's still good stuff out there, but you have to dig beneath the surface to find it. Mostly hanging out on smaller independent labels or self-produced. Very few "mainstream" bands appeal to me anymore (unless it's a band that's been around for a long time already still releasing new music).

One of the few groups that gives me hope:

Queens Of The Stone Age.

Josh Homme is one of the more interesting songwriters/guitarists out there today. Riding an interesting wave through pop, punk, rock, metal and other categories that defy description.

[7/4]

I got so bored with rock....

How bored did you get Uncle 7/4???

I couldn't be bothered to search for any new (to me) rock, so I moved on years ago. There's more interesting music than rock out there folks...I get more and more serious about that idea as time unfolds.

[ep1str0phy]

It's probably an age thing, where you simply grow out of what's popular, and stick with what was popular when you were a certain age.

Teens today will probably look back with nostalgia about the music they're listening to now, once they reach our ages, just as we do with the music we liked back then.

Not sure about that. It's been 44 years since the Beatles hit in 1964. 44 years before that was 1920. Don't know that our parents/grandparents looked back as fiercely on Al Jolson or Bing Crosby or whatever as my generation does on the classic rock era. I agree with the comment that rock music has been in a 35 year decline. Some touchstones:

1 - the death of 60's idealism (think Charles Manson and Altamont) and the ascendancy of Cocaine in the rock world, which destroyed the populist aspects of the rock experience. Granted, much of the 60's idealism was a fairy tale, but it was a fairy tale with an awesome soundtrack.

2 - the firing of Clive Davis by Columbia. They were a very daring company in the late 60's, as was Warner/Reprise. A lot of great albums got made then by those companies which would not be today

3 - the ascendancy of the singer/songwriters and country rock groups on one hand and the hard rock/heavy metal groups on the other, which polarized rock music and made other styles a niche.

4 - The AOR format, which eliminated the free-form FM format on one hand and trivialized AM top 40 playlists on the other hand.

5 - The elimination of the ability of independant labels to break new music regionally and have it go national based on merit.

6 - Punk and Disco, which seemed at the time to immediately turn everything before it into dinasours. Granted, a lot of it had become fossilized prior to that, opening the doors for Punk and Disco.

7 - MTV was damaging on one hand, because the visuals became more important than the music in a lot of ways, and because it made it even more impossible for niche/local music to ascend to national status. On the other hand, there was a return to a focus on individual songs rather than albums for a brief time, and I would argue that the early-mid 80's were by far the strongest pop period of the last 35 years, even though much of the production sounds dated now. The writing was stronger than it had been in some time, and much much stronger than it has been since then. But MTV eventually led to the Britney's and Xtina's, via Madonna. Madonna had much musical merit at time, but that seems but a small part of her legacy, and much of the rest of that legacy has been pretty damaging on a lot of levels.

8 - Rap, while some has merit, further dumbed down a lot of musical values in many cases. I have to smile here, as my parents would say the same about rock, but there it is.

9 - There is still some good music to be heard on adult alternative rock stations (we have one of the best in the country, WXPN, here in Philly. David Dye's World Cafe originates from WXPN), but even there, the format is more rigid than we might wish, though a lot looser than on "for profit" commercial stations.

10 - When's that last time there was really something "new" of great value in music to draw the masses? Also, when's the last time a group seemed to grab the spirit of the populace the way groups like U2 or Big Country did in the 80's, and so many did in the 60's?

Just some ramblings from a 53 year old on his lunch break, this is by necessity overly simplistic, but maybe will raise some good discussion points.

Agree with most of your points. One I would add is the takeover of control in the music business of accountants, probably from the mid-80s. Creativity was severely compromised as a result and many of the albums we cherish now ( Pet Sounds for example ? ) might never have got made once the accountants took over. Arguably, the decline in rock and pop dates from this time.

I think some of the logic in felser's post points to the fact that it's possible for this discussion to identify reasons why rock is as it is, but not necessarily, or rationally, what is or isn't "wrong".

I do think that the sidelining of the middleman in the era of independent releases and the internet is a mixed blessing. Cream will not always rise to the top. It might be easier to facilitate new artists through new creative mechanisms, but I don't think it's possible to support the argument that there's less ephemera and more creativity now than ever before, or at least that forms of creative music are flourishing with larger and/or more enthusiastic audiences.

And a lot of good stuff that does get put out there still doesn't get heard. It's not as if we're replacing the old infrastructure with the same thing, but myspace is an infrastructure nonetheless.

[Big Al]

I'll add that, though their career is almost 30 years on and their newer albums aren't to my tastes, Sonic Youth are a no-brainer, one of the greatest rock bands of our time.

Amen! And I love their recent work more than their earlier stuff (pre-DN).

It seems like this thread has turned into a discussion of what went wrong with the music industry's handling of rock. I'm not sure anything went wrong with rock itself. It's become a little harder to find these days, but rock is still being made loud and proud. To paraphrase that great "rock band" Tenacious D, "You can't kill the Rock, the Rock will live on!"

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, I'm steering away from industry/anti-industry arguments; they are often moot. Good and even great work will get done in spite of the music industry's efforts to quell anything other than that which operates at the lowest common denominator (bottom line).

I don't dig on Radiohead, but you could do a hell of a lot worse...

In terms of pop/rock, one need only look to bands like The New Pornographers, Broken Social Scene, Fiery Furnaces et al to see there's still something "there." Will Oldham, Cat Power, Smog are still kicking a couple around. Nobody here has probably heard of Sunset, but he/it are really onto something special in terms of long-form, progressive pop suites.

[clifford_thornton]

Rock Reviews by me

Still a little something out there, but again you gotta dig. Dig?

[JETman]

I got so bored with rock....

How bored did you get Uncle 7/4???

I couldn't be bothered to search for any new (to me) rock, so I moved on years ago. There's more interesting music than rock out there folks...I get more and more serious about that idea as time unfolds.

Right on, One and three quarters! The new shit is just that. To be honest, having 2 pre-teenage kids, I tend to like the stuff that the corporate bean-counters at Disney are pumping out more than anything that's come out of the rock world since Sting and his merrymen were do do doing the de da da

[Alexander]

Some good contemporary rock:

The White Stripes - As far as I'm concerned, Jack White is top of his particular heap. Every Stripes album has been great. I also highly recommend Jack's side-project, "The Raconteurs." Both albums are wonderful, "Consolers of the Lonely" being the most recent release.

Tokyo Police Club

The Fratellis - some people hate them...I think they're great fun. Beatleseque pop licks with Kinks-like lyrics and churning guitars.

Babyshambles (when they get around to actually recording something)

Gnarls Barkely - it's a little bit hip hop, a little bit soul, and a lot of psychadelia.

The Apples in Stereo

The Flaming Lips - around for a while, but every new album is an event.

Beck - he's been around for a long time, but he's still making significant music.

John Mayer - I know he's been marketed as a pop idol, but the guy can play the freakin' guitar. Check out "Try!" and "Continuum.'

Wilco - Again, a group that's been around for a while, but they just keep on getting better. Don't forget their alternate universe counterparts, Son Volt.

My Morning Jacket - One of my favorite current groups. Their most recent album, "Evil Urges," is pretty damn great.

The Yeah, Yeah, Yeahs - Karen O is a great vocalist.

Green Day - They started out as fake punks and turned into the real thing somewhere along the line. "American Idiot" is a great album. They just put out an album under the name Foxborough Hot Tubs which is in the tradition of sixties garage bands (think early Kinks).

The Last of the Shadow Puppets - technically a side project of the Arctic Monkeys, but I actually like them better...

How could I forget RADIOHEAD?

Edited June 23, 2008 by Alexander

[JETman]

How could I forget RADIOHEAD?

The question should be why CAN'T you. When the freak did they become Led Zeppelin?

[Sundog]

A few more current rock acts that don't suck!

Wolfmother

The Raconteurs

Back Door Slam

Zappa Plays Zappa

[Jazzjet]

Some good contemporary rock:

Babyshambles (when they get around to actually recording something)

I was with you until you brought up Babyshambles. Pete Doherty a poet? Don't make me laugh. They make Freddie and The Dreamers look like rock gods.

[Niko]

Babyshambles (when they get around to actually recording something)

can't believe i am not the only fan here (guess nobody has figured out my avatar so far)... i am not promising i will still treasure this in 10 years, but don't miss the libertines albums and the libertines demos that are available for download in several places (legally)...

edit: i mean especially the leg ii sesion:

http://djmonstermo.blogspot.com/2005/02/li...ines-demos.html

hope the links work

Edited June 23, 2008 by Niko

[Van Basten II]

Maybe not exactly rock but i enjoy a band like Tindersticks, by the way in which classification should we fit them ?

Other bands i do enjoy The Black Keys, Mercury Rev comes to mind

Edited June 23, 2008 by Van Basten II

[clifford_thornton]

Maybe not exactly rock but i enjoy a band like Tindersticks, by the way in which classification should we fit them ?

I'd fit them in along with recent Nick Cave, Dirty Three et al. I remember my ears being perked upon hearing one of their records about a decade ago.

[Teasing the Korean]

Every once in while, I'm in a record store, and hear something good on the stereo. I will ask what it is, the emo kid behind the counter will tell me. Of course I've never heard of the band, and while I may like it, I'm not compelled to buy it either.

The fact is that rock music doesn't speak to me anymore, not even the old stuff. I'm into too many other genres of music to care about rock.

I've become the middle-aged guy who buys jazz albums on his lunch break!

Edited June 23, 2008 by Teasing the Korean

[felser]

I've become the middle-aged guy who buys jazz albums on his lunch break!

Must be nice to have

1 - a brick and mortar to buy them at

2 - a lunch break

[Teasing the Korean]

Must be nice to have

1 - a brick and mortar to buy them at

2 - a lunch break

I hear you. I'm lucky in both regards!

[Alexander]

Maybe not exactly rock but i enjoy a band like Tindersticks, by the way in which classification should we fit them ?

Other bands i do enjoy The Black Keys, Mercury Rev comes to mind

I can't believe I forgot the Black Keys! "Attack and Release" is a MONSTER.

[Alexander]

Babyshambles (when they get around to actually recording something)

can't believe i am not the only fan here (guess nobody has figured out my avatar so far)... i am not promising i will still treasure this in 10 years, but don't miss the libertines albums and the libertines demos that are available for download in several places (legally)...

edit: i mean especially the leg ii sesion:

http://djmonstermo.blogspot.com/2005/02/li...ines-demos.html

hope the links work

The Libertines were a great group, if incredibly short lived. They were one of those amazingly gifted bands that flared up and burned out just as quickly. I remember when Babyshambles started releasing material, I was a little skeptical. I honestly didn't expect Doherty to live long enough to record much of anything post-Libertines. I was surprised and delighted that Babyshambles is as good as it is. I still don't expect Doherty to live very long, but maybe he'll turn out to be like Keith Richards (my theory is that Keith actually died back in the late 60s, but that he just kept on showing up to work, so Mick and the boys never got around to telling him). I'm also quite fond of Barât's Dirty Pretty Things.

Here's another artist I forgot to mention: Damon Albarn. Blur may have been a fan fav for some, but they always came off like a poor man's Oasis to me. Albarn's post-Blur career has been something quite else. I enjoyed both Gorillaz albums and Albarn's recent project, The Good, The Bad, and The Queen (produced by Brian "Danger Mouse" Burton, who also did the second Gorillaz album). Any album that includes both DM AND Tony Allen (of Fela Kuti fame) is worth hearing!

[Alexander]

Maybe not exactly rock but i enjoy a band like Tindersticks, by the way in which classification should we fit them ?

I'd fit them in along with recent Nick Cave, Dirty Three et al. I remember my ears being perked upon hearing one of their records about a decade ago.

I'm a Nick Cave fan as well. I got "Dig Lazurus Dig" when it came out in the spring. I only have a couple of his albums at the moment, but I'd love to hear more.

I'm also thinking about David Johanssen and the Harry Smiths (bit of a non-sequiter, there. My train of thought is that both Cave and Johanssen were involved in the Anthology of American Folk music tribute album...).

[AllenLowe]

rock is a complicated topic - best stuff of the last 30 years, IMHO, was No New York -

the reason many of my generation have trouble with rock, post 1975, I think, is the change in the rhythm sections - from blues-based (and clave) to a kind of white-guy's thrash; much different sound - works sometimes for me -

I hate the sound of the guitar in most post 1975 rock - those who have seen my posts here know I am critical of guitarists who are afraid of the sound of electric guitar and strings, LOUD - there's too much solid state, too much bad pedal sound, too much fake distortion (sometimes pedal, sometimes pre-amp or middle-class noise) -

Cliff, as for John Lennon, a brilliant guy who wrote brilliant and un-equaled songs - for starters, Mr Kite, Day in the Life, I'm So Tired, He Said She Said - lacked some artistic rationale for his work, which Yoko supplied and which, in the process, ruined him - as soon as he became an ARTIST his artistic life ended, unfortunately; also one of the greatest rock and roll voices ever -

Edited June 23, 2008 by AllenLowe

[BruceH]

The primeral use of rock music is to piss off previous generations, so, the fact you hate it the current proves its effectiveness. Start liking the music that your teenage son or daughter enjoys and you can be pretty sure it will make him reach for other kinds of music.

Or conversely, if THEY start liking YOUR music, then you can reach for Pere Ubu.

[AllenLowe]

by the way, best post-1970 band I've heard - Execution, with Peter Laughner -

[WorldB3]

Maybe not exactly rock but i enjoy a band like Tindersticks, by the way in which classification should we fit them ?

Other bands i do enjoy The Black Keys, Mercury Rev comes to mind

I can't believe I forgot the Black Keys! "Attack and Release" is a MONSTER.

I loved Chulahoma and Rubber Factory by the Black Keys. The last one before Attack and Release didn't move me and its sounds like they totally changed direction from what I dug about them on Rubber Factory so I have been hesitant to check it out.

Not sure what Blur albums you have heard but I thought Park Life and the self titled one with Beatle Bum on it were great. After grunge I took several years off rock (just jazz and hip hop) and it was Brit Pop brought me back in to enjoying rock. Not sure if its nostalgia or what but I am kind of looking forward to hearing what the Verve will put out this year.

However compared to all my friends it seems like I listen to Jazz exclusively. Guess that makes me the old guy who buys Jazz records in the group.

[Shawn]

Wolfmother

Agreed! Another interesting "doing new things with older sounds" band in a similar vein is Witchcraft.