Anthony Braxton Mosaic

[sal]

I hope I'm not offending anybody by creating this thread. I just thought that while the other thread had alot of useful information, there wasn't a whole lot of discussion about the music around. Hope this thread will serve that purpose!

I'm halfway through the third disc and am really, really enjoying this one. As a Braxton fan who had never heard any of this material before, its turning out to be even better than I expected. What do you all think?

I'd also be very interested in hearing from those of you who normally wouldn't be buying Braxton's music, but who are taking a chance on this one, especially since its out on Mosiac, and we all know the great quality of stuff they put out. I'm finding alot of this music to be surprisingly much more accessible than I thought it would be. I guess it wouldn't surprise me to hear about this set opening alot of folks' ears to the wonderful world of this incredible artist.

Anyways, post your thoughts here!

[7/4]

It's essential.

I probably wrote about it in another thread.

[Chuck Nessa]

I have all the lps from the issue dates and they have been part of my life since then. I was at the sessions for the two versions of For Trio. I am also interested to hear new impressions. I also await the answer to the question I posed in the earlier Mosaic thread about the material from the orchestral set.

[7/4]

I am also interested to hear new impressions.

Me2. :rsly:

[Larry Kart]

Got my set today, don't recall and can't check right now how much of it I have on LPs (most of it but not all), but I decided to jump in at what may be the deep end and listened to Opus 82. Quite an amazing feat all around (kudos to members of the four orchestras and their conductors), though I wonder what it might be like if it had been posssible to semi-totally capture in the recording process the spatial element. About the piece itself, if that's the way to put it, I'm reminded of what it was like (being about the same age as Braxton -- AB born 1945, me born 1942 -- and probably having encountered Second Viennese School music at about the same time -- age 16 or so for me) to hear that music for the first time: the making-strange effect, so to speak, being turned into the made normal and utterly sensible effect and then somehow back into both making strange AND made normal and sensible. That is, that SVS music, and perhaps even more the process of coming in touch with it at that time, somehow retains over the years its "for the first time" sensuous tangible mystery.

If I'm right about this, Opus 82 might be thought of as a "fetishizing" of that process, though by "fetishizing" (normally a negative term) I don't mean anything negative at all. What I have in mind is that Opus 82 (Braxton being a remarkable musician with an equally remarkable ability to hear) not only captures and makes his own every aspect of SVS music that attracts or attracted him, but he also conveys in this music (i.e. the music of Opus 82) the power of those initial encounters I mentioned above, the meaning of the union of making strange and finding that strange to be lucid and normal. Also, but I can't explain why yet, I think this has something to do with the relatively extreme length of the piece -- evocative at times of Webern's Symphony, it's maybe ten or twelve times as long. Could it be that Opus 82 is in that respect an attempt to respond to a musical world of almost self-consuming concision by saying that it could instead expand, even (in all but the most practical recording-industry-determined terms) need never end.

Finally, how to listen to it? There are two obvious ways, I think, and I spontaneously found myself trying both: (1) assume total continuity, think of every sound and gesture as a prelude to the next; (2) listen for what seem to you to be the beginning and the end of shapes or gestures and as much as you can absorb of what's in between (often that means that the "units" are fairly small) and ask in effect "What is/was that all I'm hearing?" I prefer option (2), because the answers are so rich in detail and (can't think of a better word) refreshing, and eventually there is abundant continuity too.

[fomafomic65]

I am really not an expert of Braxton's music. It's years I really love Basel, Dortumund and some more Hat and Black Saint cds he made. A few days ago I had this Mosaic box I preordered the momenti I saw it coming. Actually I am listening a third time around the first two cds. As I expected from my aforementioned previous listening, this is thoughtful, surprising and wonderful music. Almost perfect, classic balance in "freedom" forms. Incredible musicians (have I ever heard Holland, Wheeler or Atschul so great?).

I wish many Zorn's fans listen close to "old" Braxton music to get a realistic idea of what a genius and a great perfortmer is (though I appriciate musicians as Zorn too; sometimes).

[Lazaro Vega]

Love "Creative Orchestra Music," though the mix on the first track is a bit darker than the LP. The symphonic work is a bit much. As Chuck knows, Maestro Murray Gross was the music director of the West Shore Symphony Orchestra in Muskegon for many years (he's one of the conductors on the A.B. opus) who I believe is now in Adrian, Michigan, with their symphony. The work would have benefited from more rehearsal time, perhaps, and as Larry mentioned the ability to discern the different symphonies. With Surround Sound technology what it is now it would good to hear A.B. try this major work again.

[David Ayers]

[...] captures and makes his own every aspect of SVS music that attracts or attracted him [...]

[...] evocative at times of Webern's Symphony, it's maybe ten or twelve times as long [...]

Well... he seems to have taken the idea from the Stockhausen of Gruppen which is for three orchestras and conductors, and from other post-Darmstadt multi-conductor works. What you get in Gruppen and in Webern is intensity and economy. These are both very tightly composed works - masterpieces. Anyone who doesn't know Gruppen but is disappointed or puzzled by the Braxton should still make a point of checking out the Stockhausen piece - same for Webern.

As for the thirty minute cut don't even get me started...

[Larry Kart]

[...] captures and makes his own every aspect of SVS music that attracts or attracted him [...]

[...] evocative at times of Webern's Symphony, it's maybe ten or twelve times as long [...]

Well... he seems to have taken the idea from the Stockhausen of Gruppen which is for three orchestras and conductors, and from other post-Darmstadt multi-conductor works. What you get in Gruppen and in Webern is intensity and economy. These are both very tightly composed works - masterpieces. Anyone who doesn't know Gruppen but is disappointed or puzzled by the Braxton should still make a point of checking out the Stockhausen piece - same for Webern.

As for the thirty minute cut don't even get me started...

David -- Just to be clear, are you saying that Opus 82 is essentially derivative of the Webern of the Symphony and the Stockhausen of Gruppen and aso inferior to those works because what "you get in Gruppen and in Webern is intensity and economy" and what you get in Opus 82 is ... (you fill the blank)? I know the Webern Symphony very well; my recording of Gruppen is not accessible to me now.

[David Ayers]

[...] captures and makes his own every aspect of SVS music that attracts or attracted him [...]

[...] evocative at times of Webern's Symphony, it's maybe ten or twelve times as long [...]

Well... he seems to have taken the idea from the Stockhausen of Gruppen which is for three orchestras and conductors, and from other post-Darmstadt multi-conductor works. What you get in Gruppen and in Webern is intensity and economy. These are both very tightly composed works - masterpieces. Anyone who doesn't know Gruppen but is disappointed or puzzled by the Braxton should still make a point of checking out the Stockhausen piece - same for Webern.

As for the thirty minute cut don't even get me started...

David -- Just to be clear, are you saying that Opus 82 is essentially derivative of the Webern of the Symphony and the Stockhausen of Gruppen and aso inferior to those works because what "you get in Gruppen and in Webern is intensity and economy" and what you get in Opus 82 is ... (you fill the blank)? I know the Webern Symphony very well; my recording of Gruppen is not accessible to me now.

I am saying that Opus 82 runs in the opposite direction to those works by virtue of its length. The *cut* is longer than either of those works. I'm not keen, no, but I might be missing something. Stockhausen is most definitely a role model for AB who IIRC had a photo taken at this period of him poring over a Stockhausen score (in the Radano book - uhh, but I might be misremembering I can't check). The pic is intended for posterity I feel sure. AB's opera project has clear analogies with Stockhausen. It may be that such a long and sprawling work is aimed at something else altogether - maybe someone out there would make a case for it?

Edited October 23, 2008 by David Ayers

[Hot Ptah]

On another topic, if anyone has just recently heard "the march" for the first time, as a result of buying this Mosaic set, what is your impression of it? (It was Side 1, Cut 3 of "Creative Orchestra Music 1976" in its vinyl form).

[Larry Kart]

It may be that such a long and sprawling work is aimed at something else altogether - maybe someone out there would make a case for it?

That's what I tried to do in my initial post on this thread, which speculated about what that "something else" might be and how the length of Opus 82 might be related to Webern's extreme concision.

[7/4]

for four orchestras (1978)

I'm listening now...

edit: I think I'll have to listen a few more times, I never was a big fan of this piece.

Edited October 23, 2008 by 7/4

[GregK]

On another topic, if anyone has just recently heard "the march" for the first time, as a result of buying this Mosaic set, what is your impression of it? (It was Side 1, Cut 3 of "Creative Orchestra Music 1976" in its vinyl form).

I liked it. I like the entire Creative Orchestra Music album, and "the march" is great. I almost said "shocking", but, this is Braxton, so nothing is unexpected.

[7/4]

On another topic, if anyone has just recently heard "the march" for the first time, as a result of buying this Mosaic set, what is your impression of it? (It was Side 1, Cut 3 of "Creative Orchestra Music 1976" in its vinyl form).

I liked it. I like the entire Creative Orchestra Music album, and "the march" is great. I almost said "shocking", but, this is Braxton, so nothing is unexpected.

Now tell us how you feel about For Four Orchestras (aka Composition/Opus 82).

[GregK]

On another topic, if anyone has just recently heard "the march" for the first time, as a result of buying this Mosaic set, what is your impression of it? (It was Side 1, Cut 3 of "Creative Orchestra Music 1976" in its vinyl form).

I liked it. I like the entire Creative Orchestra Music album, and "the march" is great. I almost said "shocking", but, this is Braxton, so nothing is unexpected.

Now tell us how you feel about For Four Orchestras (aka Composition/Opus 82).

Haven't gotten to it yet. I plan to spend the next week listening to the Montreux/Berlin concerts!

[David Ayers]

With Surround Sound technology what it is now it would good to hear A.B. try this major work again.

In fact the LPs are quadrophonic so the existing recording could have been served up on multichannel SACD. The costs of that were not warranted, it seems.

[7/4]

I'll listen to it again today or tomorrow and see if I can improve on my thoughts (dense post-serial, pre-minimalistic mess). It's certainly not ghost trance music.

this is worth checking out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZO8A1oNcSmk.

.

[Larry Kart]

Alright, it's been a few days now since everybody has gotten thier braxton sets(I'm assuming)......what is the four orchestras piece like.....I'm not interested in opinions per se(whether you like it or not).....I need some kind of a play-by-play description of sorts.......is it over-the-top-in-your face sounding, is it ponderous/boring, is it dense sounding or is it sparse, does it have alot of peaks and valleys or is it like the ghost trance music, is it static sounding. Please describe the music(which nobody has done yet).

To "describe the music" in the "sounds like" sense you seem to mean would be redundant -- just listen to any of it and you'll know right off. Anyhow, though, it is not "over-the-top-in-your face sounding," except at a few points (and not really that much so there except by contrast); it is predominantly sparse (except for the spatial aspect, which is present but not as much as one would wish, you'd probably never know that 160 musicians were involved); it is not IMO " ponderous/boring" but essentially delicate; it is not a music of peaks and valleys; and while some might find it static sounding, I found it full of interesting detail if you can find the right place for you yourself to stand as a listener in relation to it (I speculated about that in a previous post).

[7/4]

In light of Larry's subsequent comments, I'm listening to composition 82 again and I can now say for sure that parts are dense and other parts are sparse.

More later.

.

[Larry Kart]

In light of Larry's subsequent comments, I'm listening to composition 82 again and I can now say for sure that parts are dense and other parts are sparse.

More later.

.

OK, but as dense as you might expect from 160 musicians divided into four orchestras?

[7/4]

Maybe dense is a subjective term.

.

[sal]

Opus 95 for Two Pianos is a piece I keep returning to. I've listened to it probably 4 times since getting the box, and last night I think I came close to having a religious experience about 25 minutes in. It was very odd.

[B. Clugston]

Opus 95 for Two Pianos is a piece I keep returning to. I've listened to it probably 4 times since getting the box, and last night I think I came close to having a religious experience about 25 minutes in. It was very odd.

That's one of the best little-discussed Braxton albums out there. It didn't get a wide release. I think Arista cut the corners off about a minute after they put the shrink wrap on. Arista also "forgot" to include Braxton's liner notes when it was released. I was lucky to find a copy a few years ago. Ursula Oppens and Frederic Rzewski are a dream team for this kind of music. I really like the use of zither and melodica on 95.

[blajay]

I'm so happy to have this set. This is one I will treasure forever. I'm unsure about better ways to go about sinking my teeth in. I'd listened to spots here and there because of their particular acclaim, but now I'm just listening disc by disc, the way Mosaic has it laid out.

Disc 1 highlights are Opus 23B and Opus 23E. The opener--Opus 23B from Arista AL-4032 New York, Fall 1974--is one of the tunes that I've always enjoyed--one of the few catchy Braxton melodies I find myself whistling down the hallway frantically, to my co-workers' displeasures, haha.