Jimmy Smith's organ sound post-1957?

[Shawn]

What did Jimmy Smith change about his sound in 1958 or so? If you listen to his earlier recordings the organ sound is different (at least to my ears), more of a "church" sound, lighter tone...but I don't notice that sound at all on his later recordings. Am I imagining this?

(compare the sound on the Feb 57 dates, with something like Crazy Baby)

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Too technical for me, but I'll be interested to know what the organists think.

MG

[Parkertown]

To me, in layman's terms, his earlier sound was more "roller-rink-y".

[BillF]

Just a layman, too. Is that why I prefer his sound on the Live at Club Baby Grand albums from 1956 to his later "trademark" sound?

[Jim Alfredson]

Back in the very early days, I believe he was using an earlier model of Hammond (not the B3). Possibly a B2, which does not have "percussion". The percussion feature on a Hammond B3 is not related to a "drum" sound, but is rather a very staccato accent at the front of the note, kind of like a wood block type of sound. It was a new feature of the new model B3. There were two options; second harmonic (which is an octave of the note you're playing) and third harmonic (which is a fifth). The classic Jimmy Smith sound, post-1958, is the first three drawbars pulled out, third harmonic percussion on, fast attack, normal volume, and the C3 chorus setting (Hammond B3s have six chorus/vibrato settings... V1, V2, V3, C1, C2, C3... only one of which can be on at any time).

Also, I believe he was using a 31H Leslie or perhaps a 21H (but it sounds like a 31H to me), which are older models and sound very different than the Leslie 122, which became the standard in later years.

What is interesting to me is that even before he was using the percussion feature, especially on those live albums, he would often use the fifth drawbar, which is the same interval as the third percussion... the only difference is it isn't staccato. So he was searching for that sound before Hammond invented it!

[Shawn]

Thanks Jim, that was exactly what I was looking for.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

Thanks Jim.

There are some organists who you can hear that 'click' with more clearly. Groove Holmes, I think, is one, particularly on slower numbers.

MG

[CJ Shearn]

Jim, the fifth drawbar is what produces that almost reedy clarinet type sound right? a la JOS on "Groovin at Smalls"? (the album, not the "Cool Blues" tune) It sounds like he was using percussion in conjunction with that fifth drawbar there.

Edited November 29, 2008 by CJ Shearn

[chewy-chew-chew-bean-benitez]

OMG DON'T EVEN GET CHEWY STARTED OVER HERE!

jimmys circa 1957 sound is by far and way with 100% certainity the pinnacle of JOS music- he was *really* playin the organ, during this period- after sucessess on the level of "chicken shack" which was a really new and unique phonomenon in the genesis of hard bop/blue note music- he tried to repeat the forumla way 2 many times (rockin' the boat?) until finnally he sold out to verve. also not as balsy it is interesting to hear him with an orchestra, they are creative records, to say the least.

the most relevatnt JOS-related item is his 1957 date with Mobley, Byrd, and Donaldson at Manhattan Towers on Feburary 11th, 1957.

Jimmy may have pulled his pants down on stage when i saw him in 2004, but he music "pulled his pants down on stage" in 1964

To all those who love him, I say bravo- if you dig it, you dig it, and im cool with that, and i kinda dig it too in a way, and im cool w/ you about it. Ain't hatin' here, but did I hear anyone say Onsaya Joy, live at the half note 1975? oo that lp is hot! ouch!!

[BillF]

Back in the very early days, I believe he was using an earlier model of Hammond (not the B3). Possibly a B2, which does not have "percussion". The percussion feature on a Hammond B3 is not related to a "drum" sound, but is rather a very staccato accent at the front of the note, kind of like a wood block type of sound. It was a new feature of the new model B3. There were two options; second harmonic (which is an octave of the note you're playing) and third harmonic (which is a fifth). The classic Jimmy Smith sound, post-1958, is the first three drawbars pulled out, third harmonic percussion on, fast attack, normal volume, and the C3 chorus setting (Hammond B3s have six chorus/vibrato settings... V1, V2, V3, C1, C2, C3... only one of which can be on at any time).

Also, I believe he was using a 31H Leslie or perhaps a 21H (but it sounds like a 31H to me), which are older models and sound very different than the Leslie 122, which became the standard in later years.

What is interesting to me is that even before he was using the percussion feature, especially on those live albums, he would often use the fifth drawbar, which is the same interval as the third percussion... the only difference is it isn't staccato. So he was searching for that sound before Hammond invented it!

Very interesting, Jim! Many thanks!

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

did I hear anyone say Onsaya Joy, live at the half note 1975? oo that lp is hot! ouch!!

That's one of the few groove Holmes albums I haven't got. I didn't know it was done at the Half Note. So it's not much like "I'm in the mood for love" or "Theme from the $6,000,00 man", then? Does he play that Hammond X-77 on it?

MG

[Shrdlu]

Thanks, Jim, for the info.

Not long ago, I got the 2 CD set of Jimmy's first BN sessions and was disappointed that he didn't sound like he does on such classics as "Back At The Chicken Shack". (That's still my favorite Smith album - it's just perfect in every way.)

[.:.impossible]

The Live at Club Baby Grand albums, along with certain selections from Live at Small's Paradise, for me, blow away everything else that I have by Jimmy Smith. Every live album up until The Sermon is so much more EXCITING than The Sermon and everything that came after.

I really don't listen to many Jimmy Smith albums more than a few times after I first get them, but those up to 1958 grab my attention every time I play them.

[Jim Alfredson]

There are some organists who you can hear that 'click' with more clearly. Groove Holmes, I think, is one, particularly on slower numbers.

Don't confuse the percussion feature with "key-click", which is the sound of the contacts under each key connecting when the key is pressed. It's almost a "static-y" sound. It was a part of the organ that Hammond himself considered a fault and the engineers tried all sorts of electronic solutions to mask it. A lot of the the jazz guys modified their organs so they would have more of that key-click.

But I know what you're saying about Groove; he sometimes used the 2nd harmonic percussion and it was very pronounced. Jimmy McGriff modified his B3 somehow to make the percussion really thick and, for lack of a better term, nasty (and get more key-click, too). His tone on those Solid State LPs is ridiculous.

Thanks, Jim, for the info.

Not long ago, I got the 2 CD set of Jimmy's first BN sessions and was disappointed that he didn't sound like he does on such classics as "Back At The Chicken Shack". (That's still my favorite Smith album - it's just perfect in every way.)

Jimmy was trying to prove himself on those initial BN records. I think his fire and intensity on those sides is awesome.

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

There are some organists who you can hear that 'click' with more clearly. Groove Holmes, I think, is one, particularly on slower numbers.

Don't confuse the percussion feature with "key-click", which is the sound of the contacts under each key connecting when the key is pressed. It's almost a "static-y" sound. It was a part of the organ that Hammond himself considered a fault and the engineers tried all sorts of electronic solutions to mask it. A lot of the the jazz guys modified their organs so they would have more of that key-click.

But I know what you're saying about Groove; he sometimes used the 2nd harmonic percussion and it was very pronounced. Jimmy McGriff modified his B3 somehow to make the percussion really thick and, for lack of a better term, nasty (and get more key-click, too). His tone on those Solid State LPs is ridiculous.

Ah, thanks Jim.

I remember talking to an organ salesman in the early eighties about the Hammond B3000 and he was saying that Hammond had artificially put that click into the solid state version because organists liked it in the B3. (Then he sat down and played "Misty" with a damn fine groove!)

MG

[CJ Shearn]

Jim, is Jimmy using second harmonic percussion on his solo on "Endless Love" from "Off the Top"? theres a different attack, almost puffy, calliope like for lack of a better term, also on "Mainstem" from "Fourmost" the attack is slightly different than the 3rd harmonic percussion with the same kinda result on his "Endless Love" solo. on my Yamaha PSRE 403 theres an organ patch "16+ 2/3" which sounds exactly like the 2nd harmonic percussion, and when I combine it with the "rotary organ" patch, it sounds pretty much like what I described on the aforementioned JOS cuts. Actually listening to the "Endless Love" solo now, you can hear the 3rd harmonic percussion but it sounds like he has another drawbar pulled out besides the first 3, what is it?

Edited December 2, 2008 by CJ Shearn

[Jim Alfredson]

I think on Endless Love he's just using the "slow" setting on the percussion, instead of the standard "fast". That lengthens the decay of the tone. He might also have a bit of that fifth drawbar in there.

On Main Stem, I think it's just a matter of the Leslie grunging things up a bit.

[CJ Shearn]

thanks Jim! as I asked before but I think it got buried, the 5th drawbar produces that almost reedy tone right? cuz on "Groovin at Smalls Paradise" and such it adds a more biting attack definitely

[WD45]

There are some organists who you can hear that 'click' with more clearly. Groove Holmes, I think, is one, particularly on slower numbers.

Don't confuse the percussion feature with "key-click", which is the sound of the contacts under each key connecting when the key is pressed. It's almost a "static-y" sound. It was a part of the organ that Hammond himself considered a fault and the engineers tried all sorts of electronic solutions to mask it. A lot of the the jazz guys modified their organs so they would have more of that key-click.

But I know what you're saying about Groove; he sometimes used the 2nd harmonic percussion and it was very pronounced. Jimmy McGriff modified his B3 somehow to make the percussion really thick and, for lack of a better term, nasty (and get more key-click, too). His tone on those Solid State LPs is ridiculous.

Thanks, Jim, for the info.

Not long ago, I got the 2 CD set of Jimmy's first BN sessions and was disappointed that he didn't sound like he does on such classics as "Back At The Chicken Shack". (That's still my favorite Smith album - it's just perfect in every way.)

Jimmy was trying to prove himself on those initial BN records. I think his fire and intensity on those sides is awesome.

The bass sounds on Vol. 3 are ENORMOUS. Was that RVG's touch, or what?

[Jim Alfredson]

Partially, but it's also due to the field coil woofer used in the 31H / 21H series of Leslies. Judging by the tone, I'm almost certain it was a big old 31H tallboy.

[king ubu]

Jim: "ridiculous" applied to McGriff's Solid State LPs: do you mean that in a good or in a bad way? Or some of both? May be my lack of english, but I notice each time I play some McGriff that his sound is indeed rather different...

[CJ Shearn]

kingubu, he means "ridiculous" as in good. It's an American colloquialism, like how "sick" is used to describe something that's very good or someone with amazing skills.

[king ubu]

Thanks for explaining

[GregN]

kingubu, he means "ridiculous" as in good. It's an American colloquialism, like how "sick" is used to describe something that's very good or someone with amazing skills.

Or Killer, Dope, Fly, Off The Hook, etc..

Never got the "off the hook" one though...

[suitandtieguy]

a) Jimmy McGriff never modified his organ. the only organist who did any work to his own instrument was Groove Holmes, and he modded the hell out of it. it's actually impossible to get really severe key click out of a 122/147 from that period because of the frequency response of the Jensen V21 treble drivers they used. the only organist who really went out of his way for more click was Keith Emerson. he was using JBL midrange horn drivers in the cabinets the Hiwatts were driving, and the click on the first three ELP records (and _especially_ the very few live recordings we have from the period) is quite severe indeed. unfortunately someone came along and "fixed" Keith's organ rig in the 90s and it's sounded pretty dull and midrangey ever since.

McGriff's appearance of more key click has to do with the way he played. you can see Chris Foreman nails this, if anyone can check him out live. anyone who wants to learn anything about the way McGriff did anything playing-wise needs to meet and spend time with that wonderful man.

he probably also lucked out on the organ that was at whatever studio Sonny Lester was sending him to ... i'm assuming it was hooked up to a 147 ... they have a brighter back end which will accentuate the click a bit.

also, there's one McGriff album where he's playing _Groove's_ organ: Main Squeeze. i don't know why, but that organ's tone and effects chain is identical to the one Groove was playing around the same time. it's possible that's the organ at the studio, but unlikely. i don't know of any studio that would change an organ that much.

b) several big changes happened in Jimmy Smith's sound. the most striking of these has to do with Van Gelder, though ... who when he built his studio and stopped recording in restaurants and his parents' house, decided it would be a great idea to run the organ direct (doh!) instead of mic it all the time. the leslie was still miked up, but only occasionally cross-faded during sections when the organist kicked the motors on. that leslie is a 21H if anyone's interested. i think it might even be the 20 watt 6v6 version even. i really don't get into the sound of the Van Gelder Studio organ records, which is a shame because that's like ... most of them. i enjoy them despite their lack of bass and Leslie.

to contrast, the sound on Groovin' At Small's totally kills. IMHO that's probably right up there with Giants of the Organ Live with "STG's Favourite Organ Records."

something else that happened is in the late sixties Jimmy Smith stopped using vibrato-chorus, and started using 2-speed leslies. he also stopped playing any cool ballads like he did back in the 50s, for reasons which would escape me had the next sentence not occurred to me: it's very hard to get in the mood to play ballads when you're raging on Bolivian marching powder.

Edited February 26, 2009 by Suit & Tie Guy