Noj Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 (edited) As a Dodgers fan, I could care less about either of these teams--just to let everyone know I'm impartial. From what I saw, Zimmer was running and appeared to be throwing something of a punch with his left just as he got to Pedro. My dad and I agreed that Pedro should have just side-stepped him and avoided him, but we also agreed that Pedro seemed suprised. Maybe he expected Zimmer to stop and confront him verbally rather than physically, and didn't have time to do anything else. I dunno, an old man like Zimmer, you'd think Pedro could have just grabbed him. Either way, I thought Pedro's gestures to the Yankee bench in the top half of the inning showed a lack of class. Edited October 12, 2003 by Noj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 I suggest you look at the video I linked above. Zimmer's eyes look like saucers and both fists are clenched. What else is Pedro supposed to do? I agree that grabbing him by the head was not the best method, but then again, look at old Zim. Try grabbing him and NOT getting his head! And as for Pedro's mouthing off-it all came about because of Garcia's nonstop cursing when he ran off the field following his dirty slide into the second baseman. Garcia walks off the field, nothing happens. Pedro said nothing and made no gestures until Garcia and the rest of the Yankees started yelling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Dan, I definitely didn't mean to say that it was Pedro's fault, and I think Zimmer behaved foolishly. I was with the announcers on Pedro's gestures to the Yankee bench, but who knows what was really being said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 I'm just glad that Clemens beat Martinez this time around (in the 1999 ALCS he got blown out of the game at Fenway). I didn't see the game, but most of the accounts I've read on the Web today lean towards the opinion that Martinez was going after Garcia. C'mon, guys, the Bosox ain't no saints either, and I say that as somebody who roots second for them after the Yanks. At least the news from the NLCS is all good--unless you're a Marlins fan! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Sounds like MLB took a pretty evenhanded stance in meting out punishment: Martinez, Ramirez, Zimmer and Garcia fined By RONALD BLUM, AP Sports Writer October 12, 2003 BOSTON (AP) -- Pedro Martinez and Manny Ramirez of the Boston Red Sox were fined Sunday along with Don Zimmer and Karim Garcia of the New York Yankees for their actions in Game 3 of the AL championship series. Bob Watson, baseball's vice president in charge on discipline, did not announce specifically why the four were being fined, other than to say it was for their behavior in the fourth inning of Saturday's game. The amounts of the fines were not disclosed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 OK, well, Zimmer should have been suspended. A coach is supposed to be a peacemaker not an assailant. (Has anyone looked at that video I linked to? I'm not saying that its the zapruder film, but it does show you what came at Pedro rather than the common view of Pedro looking toward the dugout, saying "what?" and then flinging a senior citizen to the ground.) Is Manny fined for "over-reaction"? I assume Pedro is fined for pointing at his head and saying whatever it was he said. Why is Garcia fined? For screaming "F-You" at Pedro on his way to the dugout? That's the only thing he did, the takeout slide at second was dirty but part of baseball. Well, we still have hope that Nelson and Garcia will be arrested. The latest is that the Boston PD is asking for witnesses to come forward so they can sort out who started what. But a Red Sox reliever and Boston policemen in the bullpen confirmed the account that Nelson sucker-punched the groundskeeper. What else do you need? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BERIGAN Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 (edited) Dan, I checked out the video, and I don't think it proved anything except that Pedro is a pussy thru and thru, standing back from the action.(I know, he just wanted to stay in the game) Who knows what he had said to Zimmer and the rest of the Yankee dugout. He just was glad to mix it up with a man only 40 years older than him, and shorter to boot. He clearly is a poor sport for giving up some hits and reacting that way. Just like Clemons who also has pinpoint control, when they throw a ball at someone's head, it is always after giving up hits ....the pussy is incapable of winning big games, he belongs on the Braves...when his fastball is no longer over 90, I am sure we will sign him. Edited October 12, 2003 by BERIGAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Brother Berigan, verily, I hardly believe mine eyes... are you defending the Yankees, even if only indirectly? The world has indeed changed! I'll get those "I bark for Clark" campaign buttons in the mail to you tomorrow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Well... at least the Cubbies have Prior and Wood for Games 6 & 7 (if necessary)--and it'd be nice to see them take the pennant at Wrigley. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 That's what we get! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Zim is a trip. Has been for as long as I can remember. If there was true justice in the cosmos, he would still be managing the Cubs as they prepare to meet their destiny, whatever that proves to be. And Ryne, Dunston, Grace, & Andre would be his coaches. So would Billy Williams, Ron Santo, Don Kessinger and Ernie Banks. But not that damn Bob Buhl! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 As a Dodgers fan, I could care less about either of these teams--just to let everyone know I'm impartial. If you're a "deep" (as in Brooklyn) Dodgers fan, then you got a connection w/Zim. BTW, just because I like the cat doen't mean I condone his action in this instance. That was just TOTALLY wack. Like I said, the guy's a trip, so wack shit's gonna happen with him. But fersure, he was wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noj Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 I was born in '76. I just barely make a connection with Dusty Baker and the Dodgers, I'd have to break out the history books to know Brooklyn line-ups. I agree that what Zim did was stupid, and he didn't deserve any better than he got. I guess I was just shocked to see an old man hit the turf like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 (edited) With the game rained out tonite, Grady Little should have some thinking to do. #1, you can skip Burkett and bring Wakefield back for game four (of course that leaves Wakefield for game 7 or an extremely rested John Burkett. OR (and I like this idea) #2, Let Burkett pitch tomorrow night but switch Lowe and Wakefield so that Lowe pitches game five in Fenway (with regular rest because of the rainout) where he's been awesome all year and let Wakefield pitch game 6 in New York where he's already won and the big field/foul ball area works to his advantage. I think Little's choice is obvious. Edited October 13, 2003 by Dan Gould Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Fair? Zimmer has a plate in his head from a beaning 50 years ago. Pedro nearly takes Garcia's head off, threatens to do it to someone else again. How would you react? Crazy! I know that theoretically speaking, legally speaking, professionally speaking, that it was wrong of Zimmer to go after Pedro like that. But I gotta say I smiled when I watched Z.'s charge on video--he's still got the Zimmer spark. Pretty sure that Zimmer played with the mid-50's Dodgers--correct, Jim? I think I remember his name popping up in THE BOYS OF SUMMER or some other similar source. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 With the game rained out tonite, Grady Little should have some thinking to do. #1, you can skip Burkett and bring Wakefield back for game four (of course that leaves Wakefield for game 7 or an extremely rested John Burkett. OR (and I like this idea) #2, Let Burkett pitch tomorrow night but switch Lowe and Wakefield so that Lowe pitches game five in Fenway (with regular rest because of the rainout) where he's been awesome all year and let Wakefield pitch game 6 in New York where he's already won and the big field/foul ball area works to his advantage. I think Little's choice is obvious. I'd probably opt for #2. I doubt that Torre will change his rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Pretty sure that Zimmer played with the mid-50's Dodgers--correct, Jim? I think I remember his name popping up in THE BOYS OF SUMMER or some other similar source. I'm thinking early to mid-50s, yeah, 52-54, somewhere in there. I'd have to look it up to be sure. But he definitely played for Da' Bums. I think he played into the early 60s w/various teams. Pretty sure I used to have baseball cards of him as a player, but I'd not swear to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Well, here's the new rotation, it appears (re: Boston-New York): Game 4 (Fenway): Mussina vs. Wakefield Game 5 (Fenway): Wells vs. Lowe Game 6 (NY): Pettite vs. Burkett Game 7 (NY): Clemens vs. Martinez Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Are you presuming that game 6 matchup or has someone said something? Pedro could go on three days rest for game 6, with Burkett or Suppan as backup (or he could do what he did in the Cleveland series, and come in in relief after someone else goes the first 3 or 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 (edited) And the latest on the bullpen fracas, from Boston.com, including the text of the Boston police report: Police report on Sox-Yankees bullpen altercation By Boston.com Staff, 10/12/2003 The following is the text of the incident report filed by the Boston Police detective assigned to the Red Sox bullpen and the police officer assigned to the Yankees bullpen during Game 3 of the American League Championship Series Saturday night. A member of the Fenway grounds crew, Paul Williams, 24, of New Hampshire, also assigned to the Yankees bullpen, and two Yankees players – reliever Jeff Nelson and right fielder Karim Garcia – got into a fight near the end of the game. No charges have been filed against Nelson, 36, or Garcia, 27, even though this report indicates that the police officers involved intended to do so, characterizing the episode as assault and battery on Williams. It lists two New Hampshire men as witnesses to the fight. The report says that “hands, feet, and teeth” were used during the fight. It describes Nelson as 6’2” tall, 210 pounds, and “muscular,” and quotes him as saying to Williams, “If you’re gonna cheer, go on the other side (or words to that effect).” It describes Garcia as 200 pounds and also “muscular.” The report was filed at 9:40 p.m. Saturday, 2½ hours after the altercation. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- While performing a paid detail at Fenway Park, Det. William Dunn, assigned to the Red Sox bullpen, and Officer Michael Pankievich assigned to the Yankees bullpen. Approximately 7:10 p.m., between the top and the bottom of the 9th inning, while standing outside of the bullpens and facing the crowd (and also bullpen occupants), Det. Dunn and Officer Pankievich observed a pitcher (Jeff Nelson) from the Yankees, approach the victim (who was standing in the corner of the bullpen). At this time (what appeared to be) a verbal confrontation ensued between the victim and Jeff Nelson. Officer Pankievich proceeded to that location in an attempt to separate the parties. While enroute, Jeff Nelson was observed pushing/grabbing the victim in the chest area at which time both parties fell to the ground where Jeff Nelson began punching and flaring his legs at the victim. At that point numerous other members of the Yankees bullpen jumped on the victim (some striking the victim and others attempting to break up the melee). The right fielder (Karim Garcia) from the Yankees was then observed jumping the right field wall, into the bullpen and begin striking down at the victim with his left hand. With the aid of other officers and Red Sox security staff, the parties were separated ending the incident. Further investigation revealed victim sustained numerous injuries, transported to Beth Israel Hospital and treated for injuries to his head, mouth and body (including what appeared to be numerous cleat marks). D899 Dets. Tierney and Gill responded to the Beth Israel Hospital where they further interviewed the victim and photographed his injuries. Lt. Kelly McCormick of Area B-3 forwarded witness information to Det. Dunn and P.O. Pankievich regarding their eyewitness account of the incident where they stated they observed member(s) of the NY Yankees baseball team initiate an unprovoked attack upon the victim. Summonses to be sought in Roxbury District Court for assault and battery on both Jeff Nelson and Karim Garcia of the Yankees baseball organization. Its unfortunate the Summons are being sought. Garcia and Nelson should be, ahem, "frog marched" out of Fenway in cuffs, IMO. Edited October 13, 2003 by Dan Gould Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Based on what we've seen of Pedro's last two starts, he's going to need his full rest. If you start him on three days rest, you're not going to get the best of what's he's got to give. I believe the strategy is to win the next 2 at home and go back to the Death Star (aka Yankee Stadium), with the ability to lose a game and watch one for the ages. If they're down 2-3, then they might have to go with Pedro in game 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew Posted October 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Interesting take from Boston... ********************************** DAN SHAUGHNESSY Pedro is the one at fault By Dan Shaughnessy, Globe Columnist, 10/13/2003 This Red Sox-Yankee playoff, which could still be one for the ages, has at least temporarily deteriorated into a WWE steel-cage match. There's a rumor the Sox have hired Hells Angels to guard the Yankee bullpen tonight. ADVERTISEMENT Let's not forget that we are here because of the irresponsible actions of one man: Pedro Martinez. Excluding the Paul Williams-Yankee bullpen ugliness (nobody ever knows who starts a barroom brawl, but it certainly seemed like the Yankees piled on once they had him down), Pedro's the one who got everybody into this mess. Which begs the question: How come Sox stars behave like babies when they are here, then mature when they go someplace else? Which one would you rather have now, Sox fans? Roger Clemens -- who kept his composure and behaved like a professional Saturday night, winning the game for his team despite his obvious anger? Or Pedro, the baby who hits a guy after he blows a lead, then points at his head and at Yankee catcher Jorge Posada, threatening "you're next"? Pedro said a few words yesterday and claimed that gesture was actually him telling Posada that he'll remember Posada's angry words. Sure. And he wasn't trying to hit Karim Garcia. And those young women hang out with Donald Trump because they really dig his hair. Sox fans don't like to hear this, but Pedro was an embarrassment and a disgrace to baseball Saturday. He gets away with it because he's Pedro. And the Sox front office enables him, just as they do Manny Ramirez. Just as they did with Roger when he was here and Yaz when he was here and Ted when he was here. The tail still wags the dog around here. The Sox have no control over their stars. That's the way it was for Clemens when he was here. Roger had to go elsewhere to grow up. And we all know it took a while. Everyone in baseball knows what Pedro was doing in the fourth inning. He'd blown a 2-0 lead. The Yankees were kicking him around Fenway. The old magic was gone and no doubt he was frustrated. It can't be fun knowing your team is 9-15 when you start against the Yankees. So what did he do? With first base empty and a righty on deck, he threw a pitch behind Garcia, grazing him in the shoulder. Then it got worse. After Garcia's slide into second baseman Todd Walker, and angry words with Pedro, the Yankees and Sox started coming out of their dugouts and Pedro made his outrageous threats. (Oh, I forgot, it wasn't a threat. He was actually telling Posada he needed a haircut.) No. This was: You're next. I'll hit you in the head, too. Pretty brave stuff when you never have to bat. Pretty good way to take the attention away from the fact your skills are declining and you have trouble beating this team.Notice how none of Pedro's teammates have rushed to his defense? When he puts that tape around his locker, it's as if he's putting himself on his own island in his own clubhouse. It's interesting that the $17.5 million, 14-game winner is always talking about respect, yet his actions provoke baseball people to lose respect for him. More now than ever. The stuff still plays pretty well when he throws those four-hit shutouts, but there haven't been many of those lately. His ERA and strikeout ratios are still great, but he wore down in both Oakland games and had nothing when it counted against the Yankees. Do Sox fans still feel good about him as their Game 7 starter? Maybe. But not like before. The weird part is that Clemens was often a big baby when he played here. He wanted everything his way. He distanced himself from teammates. He didn't pitch well in the postseason. Ownership gave him a long leash. His self-immolation in the fourth game of the 1990 playoffs was a complete disgrace. But now he's equal parts Audie Murphy, Winston Churchill, and Cy Young. Why couldn't he have been that guy when he was here? And why can't Pedro be that guy now? This isn't about Pedro's non-takedown of Don Zimmer. Martinez had little choice in that matter. He was being charged. The photos look bad, but it's unfair to rip Pedro for Zimmer's misbehavior. But how come Zimm's the only one apologizing around here? Could Pedro one time stand up and admit he's wrong (angry e-mailers get back -- I already admitted I was wrong about David Ortiz)? He can't admit he threw at Garcia, no one ever does that, but could he apologize for losing his head when he pointed to his head? No. He has to reinvent the gesture. Maybe it doesn't matter to Sox fans, but that fuzzy Cubs-Red Sox World Series may not be America's dream matchup anymore. The Red Sox have done a lot of damage to themselves in the last two days and last night's ridiculous press conference featuring John W. Henry, Tom Werner, and Larry Lucchino only contributed to the madness. In violation of the commissioner's order (don't these guys remember that Bud Selig ordered bagman John Harrington to deliver the team to them?) the three amigos stood up and defended everything that happened Saturday, including Pedro's obvious head-hunting. The new baby Pedro apparently needs demons in order to perform at his best. Throughout this year, he has found imaginary enemies to inspire his talents. His big complaint is always "lack of respect." His critics are no longer imaginary. Now that they are real, maybe he'll be the pitcher the Sox need in Game 7. Dan Shaughnessy is a Globe columnist. His e-mail address is dshaughnessy@globe.com. © Copyright 2003 Globe Newspaper Company. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 (edited) A lot has been written, and depending on whether you're a Sox or Yanks fan, you probably agree with one side or the other. The bottom line: Pedro lost his cool and his team lost the game. Roger kept his cool and his team won the game. If the series goes to a 6th game and returns to New York, perhaps the Yankees should provide minimum security (for attending fans only) and leave the Red Sox to fend for themselves. (That's the Yankee fan in me losing my cool. I actually hope that there are no further incidents anywhere, and that fans can watch some good baseball without any more craziness.) P.S. - I like Zip, but for a different reason than most folks. To my mind, he mismanaged the Sox in '78 and allowed the Yanks to win the pennant. Edited October 13, 2003 by paul secor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 A lot has been written, and depending on whether you're a Sox or Yanks fan, you probably agree with one side or the other. The bottom line: Pedro lost his cool and his team lost the game. Roger kept his cool and his team won the game. If the series goes to a 6th game and returns to New York, perhaps the Yankees should provide minimum security (for attending fans only) and leave the Red Sox to fend for themselves. (That's the Yankee fan in me losing my cool. I actually hope that there are no further incidents anywhere, and that fans can watch some good baseball without any more craziness.) P.S. - I like Zip, but for a different reason than most folks. To my mind, he mismanaged the Sox in '78 and allowed the Yanks to win the pennant. Verily, I believe not mine eyes! Another Yankees fan on this board? We should form a support group... I remember the '78 playoff game very well. My industrial arts teacher allowed me to listen to it on a transistor radio while I was doing shop work; I heard Dent's home run there, and heard Jackson's as I was walking home from school. Beautiful memories! B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 Are you presuming that game 6 matchup or has someone said something? Pedro could go on three days rest for game 6, with Burkett or Suppan as backup (or he could do what he did in the Cleveland series, and come in in relief after someone else goes the first 3 or 4. Dan, That's how it was being reported on one of the wires last night... I don't know if this rotation is still holding true today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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