John Coltrane - Infinity revisited

[Shrdlu]

Just gave this LP-only album (Impulse AS 9225, released 1972) a spin again, and I thought it would be worth an umpteenth discussion.

Track listing

A-1: Peace on Earth

A-2: Living Space

B-1: Joy

B-2: Leo

Personnel (a little difficult to settle exactly, and there are minor errors in the LP listing)

John Coltrane (ts). McCoy Tyner (p), Jimmy Garrison (b), Elvin Jones (d), Alice Coltrane (harp,

tamboura), Joan Chapman (tanboura), Oran Coltrane (bells). (Strings, Alice Coltrane,

Chapman, Haden and Oran Coltrane only present on the overdub.)

van Gelder studio, Englewood Cliffs, NJ, June 15, 1965

Living Space

John Coltrane (ts), McCoy Tyner (p), Jimmy Garrison (b), Elvin Jones (d), Alice Coltrane

(harp, vib). (Strings, Alice Coltrane and Haden only present on the overdub.)

Coast Recorders, San Francisco, CA, September 22, 1965

Joy

John Coltrane (ts, ss, bcl, bells, perc), Pharoah Sanders (ts, fl, picc, tamb, perc),

Alice Coltrane (p, org, vib, tympani), Jimmy Garrison (b), Rashied Ali (d),

Ray Appleton (perc). (Strings and Haden only present on the overdub.)

Coast Recorders, San Francisco, CA, February 2, 1966

Peace On Earth

Leo

On all 4 tracks, overdubbed string section consisting of Murray Adler (concertmaster), James Getzoff or Gerald Vinci, Gordon Marron, Michael White (vln), Rollice Dale,

Myra Kestenbaum (vla), Jesse Ehrlich, Edgar Lustgarten (cello), Charlie Haden (b).

The Village Recorder, Los Angeles, CA, April 16 & 17, 1972.

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Phew, that's about the best I can do with all the details. Feel free to correct. I think I recall Trane playing the bass clarinet in there - he does on another track from the 2/2/66 session. It might be necessary to omit that instrument here.

So, after all that, what's it all like?

There has been some dissatisfaction with the overdubbing, naturellement. All but Leo can be obtained without the overdubs. I won't list all the details here, except to say that the non-overdubbed versions of Living Space and Joy are in the Classic Quartet set, and Peace on Earth can be found on the LP "Jupiter Variation" - if you can find a copy. Leo has, to the best of my knowledge, never been issued in its original form.

I am not totally decided on whether I prefer the non-overdubbed versions or what is here.

(This all reminds me of the Wes Montgomery album "Willow Weep For Me".) I'm glad to have the originals, but the bottom line is "what does this LP sound like?' Well, I think it's a groove. A big wash of sound, with some lovely bass ostinatos. Put it under the heading of a musical experience.

Copies of the LP are quite easy to grab from a certain auction website, in case you want to hear this and don't have a copy. I have a feeling that there won't be a CD reissue.

Edited February 17, 2009 by Shrdlu

[jazzbo]

I have this on cd from MCA Japan. I like it a lot. I need to dig it out soon and give it another spin. I don't doubt that eventually we'll see it released in the US. It's Coltrane. They'll sell copies.

[7/4]

It should be released on CD in the states. I found a Japanese CD released copy many years ago, really cheap.

I happen to really dig it man.

dB

[Late]

Wasn't "Leo" reissued without overdubbing as part of the CD Interstellar Space?

I like the overdubs, by the way.

[king ubu]

Isnt' all of this music available elsewhere without the overdubs already?

I don't have "Living Space", but some may be in the Classic Quartet 8CD set? I also have that "Cosmic Music" disc or whatever it was called - there, I think Coltrane plays bass clarinet as well, doesn't he? (Sorry, posting from work...)

[jazzbo]

I totally completely utterly DIG the orchestration/reworkings.

[JSngry]

I don't know if I do or not, there's such an extreme sonic disconnect between Trane & the overdubs that it's all but impossible for me to hear them organically.

The line "I really like what you're trying to do" comes to mind, and unfortunately, because I think it's all better than that.

What would be nice would be a collection of A) the original album, B) the original performances, and finally C) the original album remixed to restore a more natuiral balance between things, so it sounds like it should sound, that is, not a way-overdone overdubbing.

In the meantime, I have it and I still listen to it and am inspired by it (hell, it's Trane, how could it not?). But it frustrates me still.

[paul secor]

There was a Cadence interview with Buell Neidlinger in which he mentioned being in the studio when Alice Coltrane did the overdubs - Neidlinger was there for another unrelated recording session. Don't have that issue anymore, but I remember that Neidlinger was very pissed that it happened.

[clifford_thornton]

I remember that too.

Used to be in fairly regular contact with Buell and he talked about it to me some, though I don't believe we discussed it in our interview.

I didn't "get" Infinity when I first heard it and much preferred "Living Space," for example, without the strings. Now, I'm feeling a little more "like" if not "love" for Alice w/ strings and maybe could handle it. I assume that Alice felt she was carrying on some of the work that Trane had wanted to do w/r/t strings, but I don't know that for sure.

[captainwrong]

This is one of the LPs I lost in a flood that I really want to replace. I dig it quite a bit.

[Shrdlu]

Wasn't "Leo" reissued without overdubbing as part of the CD Interstellar Space?

That Leo is a different one, recorded 2/22/67. It's a duet with Rashied Ali.

[erhodes]

"Living Space" was recorded on June 16, not June 15. There are two sets of overdubs on the version released on "Infinity". Trane overdubbed his soprano sax and then Alice overdubbed the strings and bells in 1972. A version with only the soprano overdubbing was issued on several different Impulse compilations, e.g., the "Classic Quartet", "Retrospective - The Impulse Years", etc. The "Classic Quartet" box also includes a version without any overdubbing.

On the version of "Joy" released on "Infinity", Alice Coltrane overdubbed harp and vibes, Charlie Haden overdubbed over Jimmy Garrison's original bass part and Alice overdubbed with the same strings used on "Living Space". The version issued on "Feelin' Good" does not have the strings but it retains the overdubbed harp, vibes and bass parts. No unedited version of this has been issued.

Regarding the February 2, 1966 session, four titles have been issued but I am certain that there are only three distinct tracks.

"Manifestation", issued on "Cosmic Music", and "Leo", issued on "Infinity", are the same performance. Both are edited. The "Manifestation" version lops off the opening and closing themes and has at least one edit in the closing section with Trane and Pharoah improvising together. The "Leo" version retains the opening and closing themes but features overdubbing with the same string session as above. It also has more of the body of the performance chopped out with various edits.

"Peace On Earth", as issued on "Infinity", features the overdubbed strings, Charlie Haden's overdubbed bass, and overdubbed harp and organ from Alice Coltrane. The version issued on "Jupiter Variation" loses the strings but retains the other overdubbing in a manner similar to the treatment of "Joy".

No completely unedited versions of "Leo" or "Peace On Earth" have been issued and the status of the original, unedited masters from this session is unknown.

"Rev. King", which is the only track on which Trane plays bass clarinet, seems relatively untouched on "Cosmic Music", though there are at least some signs of gain riding at the end. This track was not released on "Infinity" or any other issue.

I don't like the overdubbing...but that's just my 2 cents. I hope to someday hear the complete unedited "Leo" but I have no idea if the masters survived. I would have prefered if Pharoah had played tenor all the way through...but that's just another 2 cents.

[Shrdlu]

Thanks for all that info, Ed! You are working hard!

As "Leo" and "Manifestation" are the same piece (though differently edited), we don't have to pine about a non-overdubbed "Leo" anymore. The discographies need to be updated - I got my info from them.

As this is Impulse, it is very unlikely that the session reels still exist. But you never know, Ravi might have them.

The version of "Joy" in the 8 CD Impulse box does not have the harp, vibes and bass overdub. It's the plain original sound - though possibly edited.

"Peace on Earth", on the "Jupiter Variation" album, does not have overdubbed harp, vibes or bass.

Both "Leo" (on the "Infinity" LP) and "Manifestation" (on the "Cosmic Music" LP) are edited a lot, and differently. Full marks for discovering that this is just the one original piece. The "Infinity" version lacks Sanders' piccolo solo (no great loss, hee hee), heard on the "Cosmic Music" version. But the "Infinity" version does have a bass clarinet solo. It's on the opposite channel from Trane's tenor solo, and so maybe Pharoah had a go on it. (It was the horn used by Eric Dolphy, of course.)