West Coast Jazz Recommendations

[JSngry]

Nobody "deserves" to get paid. But when a sign is set up, criteria met, line formed, and people in it don't get paid, the sign is just wrong. But as long as they're paying some people, somebody must be buying into that wrong sign, so Mr. Gorbachev, take down that sign.

[mikelz777]

I'd give Gerald Wilson a look.

[JSngry]

I'd give Gerald Wilson a look.

Well now! As should well be done.

Texas Rangers, yet Houston Astros?

Houston Texans, yet Dallas Cowboys?

West Coast Jazz yet Gerald Wilson?

It made sense as a real time marketing angle, but seriously, today, how is it anything more than a lazy conversational shorthand, this "West Coast Jazz". Is the West Coast Jazz thing? At least make it one word Westcoastjazz, like Warne did with Supersax, Charlieparkermusic. Hello, nifty summation! Otherwise, what is this Christoper Columbus Discovering America thing, how is that still a thing anyway? See the USA in a Chevrolet, discover that America, folks, it's not real until you do!

We got all these black folks playing Jazz on the West Coast, that yes, "sounds like" hardbopjazzmusic and yet, there are differences, regional accents (no "East Coast" altoist had the slippery phrasing of all the so many altoists who got hit by Sonny Criss, hello, yet this/their music should not be called West Coast Jazz as relaistically as Bud Shank or Chico Hamilton? Call 1-800-Bullshit, operators are standing by.

Pacific Jazz ends up finding any number of West Coast (Soul) Jazz talent in the late-50/Early 60s, and that is not some West Coast Jazz? Call now and we'll throw in Dr. Scott's latest testament California Done Fell Into the Ocean When You Weren't Looking, Eh? Coast Now In Different Place Than Before, Look Away, Look Away!

And wait, what's this? A whole 'nother West Coast Jazz starts happening in and around the Don Ellis Orb, pretty well yet apparently inconspicuously documented on impulse! (and even getting onto a Shelley Manne record...and a Phil Woods one as well, what the hell are you talking about, Jim, is this real? Damn straight it's real!) how is this not as much "West Coast Jazz Part 2, starring Don Ellis as Stan Kenton With the Extra Wingspan Moved to The Expanded Forehead"? That number again, 1-800-Bullshit.

And then we got all the Horace Tapscott/John Carter things smack dab on the West Coat, smack dab Jazz, and yet again, CALL NOW!

We should use the term advisedly when we use it at all, and we should be working towards the day when it either strikes a wider net than it now does or else we come up with a more meaningful term because time is marching on, and these kids today and their babies of tomorrow and beyond, do you really want them thinking that West Coast Jazz is really the ONLY West Coast Jazz? If so, plant that flag and claim that land. Otherwise, tomorrow is the question, asked and answered, roll tape, and somebody call Phil Moore & Lloyd Reese, they'll want to be discovered, Mr. Columbus, give 'em a call when you get there.

Ok, fit suitably hissied. Onward!

[Larry Kart]

Nobody "deserves" to get paid. But when a sign is set up, criteria met, line formed, and people in it don't get paid, the sign is just wrong. But as long as they're paying some people, somebody must be buying into that wrong sign, so Mr. Gorbachev, take down that sign.

What criteria met in what way? The name on the sign, interpreted in terms of geography, or the particular musical style that virtually everyone at the time knew that that name stood for? And what line that formed where?

Of course, several different styles of jazz happened/were happening on the West Coast, but only one of them -- and who said it was the only one? -- had the particular stylistic traits of so-called West Coast Jazz. Who has ever had that much of a problem sorting out this non-conundrum? West Coast Jazz is NOT the only jazz that emerged from the West Coast. And -- stop the presses -- not all of the jazz that emerged from New Orleans is, or ought to be called, Dixieland.

[JSngry]

Of course, several different styles of jazz happened/were happening on the West Coast, but only one of them -- and who said it was the only one? -- had the particular stylistic traits of so-called West Coast Jazz. Who has ever had that much of a problem sorting out this non-conundrum? West Coast Jazz is NOT the only jazz that emerged from the West Coast. And -- stop the presses -- not all of the jazz that emerged from New Orleans is, or ought to be called, Dixieland.

Ok, we'll just continue to use an inaccurate terminology that has no real meaning (well) past the real-time consensuality of mutally shared real-timers.

What could possibly go wrong with that?

And last time I looked, Both New Orleans and the West Coast were still real places. Dixie(land) was not, although Disneyland is. New Orleans gets it right, they call it New Orleans MUSIC.

[Shawn]

I tell ya what, if you hang out at Venice Beach and watch the sun set the vibe of the west coast jazz albums makes perfect sense. At least it does to me.

[JSngry]

What criteria met in what way? The name on the sign, interpreted in terms of geography, or the particular musical style that virtually everyone at the time knew that that name stood for? And what line that formed where?

The lines that inevitably form when people who think they are doing something that other people want. Stay in that line long enough and surely you will be called. Kinda like the day laborers who line up waiting for the truck to com every day. Plano has been nice enough to build them a covered facility with sanitation facilities and picnic tables so they can eat breakfast and not miss a gig, Or if things are slow, lunch?

I can tell you though, people who drive by looking for "a couple of people to help me with this sprinkler system" REALLY mean "a couple of Mexicans to help me with this sprinkler system", so inevitably the transaction is driven by being Mexican first, then, if it ever gets past that, people who can help with that sprinkler system second.

Those kinds of lines, where people seeking services and people providing them look to meet and deal,

I tell ya what, if you hang out at Venice Beach and watch the sun set the vibe of the west coast jazz albums makes perfect sense. At least it does to me.

I did that once, and I had the same reaction to and/about Brian Wilson songs.

[Larry Kart]

So the "real-time consensuality of mutally shared real-timers" has or ought to have "no real meaning" any more?

Yes, Dixieland was not a real place, but it was a real musical style, for better or for worse -- though it was, again, far from the only style of jazz that had some connection with New Orleans. Why must a musical style and the physical place connected with it in some way be an identity? May I have the next Viennese waltz?

[JSngry]

Phase it out, sure, make it better so the discussion can get better and fresher and braoder - all of which would be accurate and beneficial.

A waltz is a dance, is it not? You will dance the Viennese Waltz in the manner of the Viennese.

By the same law, you will West Coast the Jazz in the manner of the West Coast, so to make that work in currently slanted reality, SOME peoples gonna have to be lest than 100% West Coast, and or less than 100% Jazz and....HEY they still got the interment camps around?

I think Ted Gioa did a marvelous and useful thing be looking at characteristics that ALL West Coast Jazzes had in common. These tendencies were more attitudinal that cultural, and could be found in places that the easy wheezies of "West Coast Jazz" would be horrified to fiend them. I like how he made a case for Eric Dolphy being a more or less consummate West Coast jazzman, that he could have never emerged ouf ot an eastern jazz world the type of player and thinker was he did. So here's another WCJ recommendation - Eric Dolphy, seriously! And Eric Dolphy w/Mingus, Impeccably Credentialed West Coast Jazz, no matter where it was played, New York State Of Mind my ass!

That book opened my eyes to a lot of things, and my ears began to hear honesty if places I once heard contrivance. It threw a much broader net and in the process, the weak got weak and the strong got stronger, and the perhaps misunderstood became perhaps better understood.

West Coast Jazz, Live by the name, die by the name, or better still, be saved by the name meaning exactly what it says.

The real world, the jazz mainstreams, overtook West Coast by the 1960s. What remained were Brubeck-Desmond, G. Mulligan's bouncing rhythms, not a whole lot else.

And Mulligan was pretty much moving on to the CJB.

[ArtSalt]

I think Gioa's and Gordon's books go far to dispel the myth that WCJ was all neo-baroque chamber music played by effete white musicians trying to reclaim modern jazz from the Afro-Americans. Nevertheless, one does get from Contemporary and certainly, Pacific Jazz labels that this was predominanty a white cats scene. The colour bar in the studio's is explored in Gordon's book as I remember, and definitely in Central Avenue Sounds: Jazz in Los Angeles, which is an interesting oral and social history of Los Angeles' "52nd Street" and the race issues of the time in relation to jazz.

The accusations against WCJ musicians could also be equally applied to the MJQ and Bill Evans. And indeed they have been.

Heroin of course was equally destructive on both coasts, but there is a Contemporary album, can't remember by who now, with a nice looking young lady giving the thumbs-up, with a cap that has a capital "H" on it. It's pretty-much clear the brand message that is being sent.

I just can't buy into this nonsense that WCJ is not real authentic jazz and we should all just listen to what was being recorded in New York and forget about it.

[Big Beat Steve]

I think Gioia's and Gordon's books go far to dispel the myth that WCJ was all neo-baroque chamber music played by effete white musicians trying to reclaim modern jazz from the Afro-Americans. Nevertheless, one does get from Contemporary and certainly, Pacific Jazz labels that this was predominanty a white cats scene. The colour bar in the studio's is explored in Gordon's book as I remember, and definitely in Central Avenue Sounds: Jazz in Los Angeles, which is an interesting oral and social history of Los Angeles' "52nd Street" and the race issues of the time in relation to jazz.

The accusations against WCJ musicians could also be equally applied to the MJQ and Bill Evans. And indeed they have been.

Heroin of course was equally destructive on both coasts, but there is a Contemporary album, can't remember by who now, with a nice looking young lady giving the thumbs-up, with a cap that has a capital "H" on it. It's pretty-much clear the brand message that is being sent.

I just can't buy into this nonsense that WCJ is not real authentic jazz and we should all just listen to what was being recorded in New York and forget about it.

Word.

As for the color barrier, to the best of my knowledge the East Coast studios weren't that much more integrated at that time either. So racial barriers were there everywhere.

Another detail that just might shed some light on some other preconceived notions about the "white/black" issue:

What was the share of African-Americans among the overall population on the West Coast in the 50s and what was that share on the East Coast in the 50s? (Couldn't find anything conclusive in a quick Google search)

BTW, "Central Avenue Sounds" is interesting indeed but IMO it shows the limits of such "oral histories". All of the interviewees have very interesting stories to tell but some of them aren't really the most articulate persons and do not seem to be aware of how to keep a story going but instead ramble on and on. So where do you start doing some careful editing and polishing in the interest of legibility but without sacrificing authenticity? A narrow line, it seems ...

Edited February 2, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[Joe]

Bob Enevoldsen (tenor sax, valve trombone) and Stu Williamson (trumpet, valve trombone) are a couple of "white," California-based, "West Coast," "cool"-affiliated players whose playing isn;t as easily slottable as those labels / shingles hung suggest. Lots of nice sideman appearances in each man's discography... e.g., Williamson on Elmo Hope's Pacific Jazz quintet date, in a frontline with harold Land; Enevoldsen on the Herb Ellis / Stuff Smith LP... but the Andorran entrepreneurs have also assembled their otherwise rare leader sessions in some handy compilations that are worth acquiring if the right circumstances present themselves.

[soulpope]

Edited February 2, 2015 by soulpope

[Quasimado]

The Warne Marsh groups are Tristano School plus Art Pepper, not withstanding that Warne was originally from LA.

Sometimes labels have meaning - if it says "Tristano School" that's what you get.

I rather like what Larry said about the West Coast Jazz label, " ... a whole lot of people (I being one of them) found WCJ (when applied to the music to which it was commonly applied at the time) to be as accurate a label as could be, in the sense that the music so labeled had a good deal of stylistic coherence".

I was one of them too. Bingo!

[JSngry]

Harry Babasin seemed to call it Jazz In Hollywood. That seems a whole more accurate locationally. a lot less presumptive in terms of who was and wasn't in the claimed region, and still gets you to the same type of music.

[soulpope]

The Warne Marsh groups are Tristano School plus Art Pepper, not withstanding that Warne was originally from LA.

Sometimes labels have meaning - if it says "Tristano School" that's what you get.

I rather like what Larry said about the West Coast Jazz label, " ... a whole lot of people (I being one of them) found WCJ (when applied to the music to which it was commonly applied at the time) to be as accurate a label as could be, in the sense that the music so labeled had a good deal of stylistic coherence".

I was one of them too. Bingo!

to me it`s art pepper with warne marsh - but if you prefer the labeling "tristano school" that`s fine with me, as the music remains the same and excellent..... both ways...

Edited February 2, 2015 by soulpope

[paul secor]

Call it what you want to. There are/were musicians based on the West coast who interest me and other musicians based there who don't. That's all that's important to me. The rest is all labels and word games.

[johnblitweiler]

Harry Babasin seemed to call it Jazz In Hollywood. That seems a whole more accurate locationally. a lot less presumptive in terms of who was and wasn't in the claimed region, and still gets you to the same type of music.

True, but West Coast Jazz is the way the music was peddled in its heyday.

Like Chicago style modern jazz (post-Jug, -Jamal, &c.), Detroit style, Philadelphia style, maybe there are consistent or shared features of southern CA jazz of the 1950s that we can call Black CA style. (Did Savoy's Black CA albums ever make it to CD?)

[Peter Friedman]

This discussion strikes me as going over the cliff !

Perhaps my age is a factor. At the time I was becoming interested in jazz West Coast Jazz was making itself heard with Hard Bop right on it's heels. The term West Coast Jazz which the photos and album covers by William Claxton helped solidify had definite meaning to me and many other jazz listeners. It was stylistic and understandable though as I said in a previous post, the bounderies were quite loose. The distinction between the music played by Horace Silver's groups and that of Shorty Rogers groups was easily heard.

I get the sense that many of the comments in this thread are trying to make far more of that historically meaningful term West Coast Jazz than necessary. Of course there was much more going on in California, and the high quality music being played by Sonny Criss,

Teddy Edwards, Harold Land and Eric Dolphy, to mention just a few,is not being denigrated or ignored.

An earlier Post by Larry closely mirrors my own experience. I very much liked West Coast Jazz, then as Hard Bop moved into the drivers seat I began to look less positively at West Coast Jazz and saw it as lacking the soulful, bluesy more hard swinging qualities I found in Hard Bop. But as time moved on I began to regain my love for West Coast Jazz, and saw it as one more wonderful listening option along with a variety of other styles within the world of jazz.

[JSngry]

I dig all the real-time imprinting, but you can see that everything is moving from "what we did" to "what happened", and the Gioa approach is to me the one good way to keep the baby and the bathwater both fresh happy, and clean. You get to thinking about the math of naming a specific style by a specific set of people, and, ok, while you're in it, you get it. But we all gonna die, right? And then people look at words and start wondering what does this mean, and they look at "West Coast", and then they look at a map, and then they either take that map at face value or else they decide to start red-lining and shit.

This shit is happening everywhere, blues, jazz, pretty much, it's the thing to do these days, take a thing, define it codify it, and make that The Way It Was, and the longer time goes on, it becomes more about ownership of history than it does recoding it and keeping it open at all hours.

I do think it's important to document marketing as a part of history, just not as the history by itself. "West Coast Jazz" as shorthand for living real-time survivor-memory, mutually acknowledged, it works. As a term for people 200 years from now, what do we want that conversation to look like - Bud Shank AND Eric Dolphy, or Bud Shank yes, Eric Dolphy, some weird guy who just came out of nowhere?

So hell yeah, Eric Dolphy - multi-instrumentalist, interested in "classical" forms and techniques in terms of both study and execution, musical attitude shaped in part by climatological/natural factor of place and time, not at all adverse to bringing "outside" influences to his concept, pretty much a definitive example of the "West Coast Jazz" mentality. And a native Californian!

So, what's the problem there?

[Big Beat Steve]

Harry Babasin seemed to call it Jazz In Hollywood. That seems a whole more accurate locationally. a lot less presumptive in terms of who was and wasn't in the claimed region, and still gets you to the same type of music.

True, but West Coast Jazz is the way the music was peddled in its heyday.

Like Chicago style modern jazz (post-Jug, -Jamal, &c.), Detroit style, Philadelphia style, maybe there are consistent or shared features of southern CA jazz of the 1950s that we can call Black CA style. (Did Savoy's Black CA albums ever make it to CD?)

1) Yes this was how it was marketed, but (no, John, I am NOT addressing you ) is this any reason for artifically narrowing down the scope of the music that is perceived as representaitve exponents of WCJ today? Cf. that "classical/arranged" tag which IMHO falls FAR short of describing the entire spectrum (or even the most "coast-"/"beach"-/"sun"-/"California-"-ish examples ) There are moments when I get the impression the predominance of white jazzmen in WCJ still seems to bug later generations of some jazz people so much that they try to narrow WCJ down to that "arranged" etc. aspect. Would this make it easier to give it short shrift? Why not just take the music the way it is and for what it is within the entire scope of jazz? If you like it - fine, if you don't like it - fine too (nobody will like each and every style of jazz or all artists alike), but don't dismiss it just because the "WCJ" lable is sttached to it. Isn't there room for every style? Beats me why so many other jazz styles get so much advance bonus whereas WCJ often seems to get an advance malus whenever these jazz styles are discussed. Does the thorn of commercial success (however fleeting it was) achieved back then still sit that deep today after that many decades with many who (however inappropriately) feel that other musicians from other coasts or regions would have merited that success more? Or is "Crow Jim" at work there somewhere even today?

2) I'd bet there certainly are consistent features of Southern CA jazz that could be refered to as black CA jazz, but wouldn't that be just as heterogeneous if you stir deeper? If you take, say, the 1947 Pasadena Civic or Shrine concerts as a starting point, then whatever black West Coast jazzmen came afterwards would cover a pretty wide range too. And speaking of the happenings in California's African-American community you probably wouldn't get the whole picture if you totally rule out all the black R&B honkers (yes, horror of horrors to the "seated-audience concert jazz" fraternity, but can they really be dismissed if one tries to get the full jazz-oriented picture of the black community of those days? Weren't the boundaries rather blurred there at times too?).

3) The Black Claifornia albums on Savoy DID make it to CD but only in abbreviated form. Personal experience: After having enjoyed Vol. 1 on vinyl immensely but never having been able to find Vol. 2 anywhere I finally came across a CD copy of Vol. 2, bought it as the second best choice, only to discover it only contained about 2 thirds or 3 quarters of the twofer LP contents. Luckily not long afterwards (mid-90s) I did find a clean copy of the 2-LP set of Vol. 2 and - lucky again - was able to sell the CD almost at once (having Slim Gaillard on it helps if you have collecting friends in swing/R&B circles ).

Edited February 2, 2015 by Big Beat Steve

[Big Beat Steve]

This discussion strikes me as going over the cliff !

Perhaps my age is a factor. At the time I was becoming interested in jazz West Coast Jazz was making itself heard with Hard Bop right on it's heels. The term West Coast Jazz which the photos and album covers by William Claxton helped solidify had definite meaning to me and many other jazz listeners. It was stylistic and understandable though as I said in a previous post, the bounderies were quite loose. The distinction between the music played by Horace Silver's groups and that of Shorty Rogers groups was easily heard.

I get the sense that many of the comments in this thread are trying to make far more of that historically meaningful term West Coast Jazz than necessary. Of course there was much more going on in California, and the high quality music being played by Sonny Criss,

Teddy Edwards, Harold Land and Eric Dolphy, to mention just a few,is not being denigrated or ignored.

An earlier Post by Larry closely mirrors my own experience. I very much liked West Coast Jazz, then as Hard Bop moved into the drivers seat I began to look less positively at West Coast Jazz and saw it as lacking the soulful, bluesy more hard swinging qualities I found in Hard Bop. But as time moved on I began to regain my love for West Coast Jazz, and saw it as one more wonderful listening option along with a variety of other styles within the world of jazz.

Very nice post - thanks, and even as someonoe from a later and geographically removed generation I can totally relate to that.

Your final paragraph sums up what I, as a latter-day listener to WCJ, have tried to get at too in my posts here: Take it for what it is, don't try to compare apples with oranges and see what you find in there and proceed from there and ABOVE ALL, don't try to pigeonhole it by narrowing donw its scope to one or two aspects that you may find particularly typical, though other traits may be just as plentiful, or even more so.

And your post also makes me realize that maybe the approaches to such styles of music that by now have entered history really do differ if you approach them much later. As someonoe who got into this music about 3 decades after their heyday (on average) I have never warmed up that much to Hard Bop. I do like quite a bit of it but I've always found the contrasts of 40s Bebop and 50s WCJ much more stimulating. Bebop for its intensity and power that always is focused and very much to the point on the one hand (yes, playing times might play a role there, and with Hard Bop "stretching out'" and "rambling on" sometimes are all too close together, at least the way I prefer my music and the more easygoing, relaxed (though IMO no less intense) feeling of a lot of WCJ.

[JSngry]

Also consider that there was a "scene" on the East Coast identical to that of the "West Coast Jazz" - players who worked the studio, played jazz as/when available, writers who wrote beyond the conventional conveniences, etcetc, yet is this what is known as "East Coast Jazz"? Well of course not, becuase that was not the only thing going on on the east coast. and yet "East Coast Jazz" = "hard bop" which was one of many things going on the east coast at the time. These guys had a marketing code word, usually something like "workshop"...East Coast "Workshop" often the spiritual cousin to "West Coast Jazz".

And the whole "Black Califronia Jazz" thing, yeah, ok, but what, that's as easily segregationist in perceptual outcome as it is a useful focus. Compare that to "West Coast Jazz", if stereotypically and very broadly accurately considered to be a "white" thing, then what does this mean, white folks got the whole West Coast to themselves, black folks, go you your designated area? Keep Off The Beach?

This usage of marketing terms as historical/potential historical taxonomy just seems doomed to increase tunnel vision as it goes along. It's just silly, and I am not a fan.

What I am a fan of is looking at what everybody was doing in a place at a time, the natural differences and similarities then become revealed as normal human behavior at work, and the ambiguities present themselves as inevitable, and everything keeps moving. And then you get to where Shelley Manne playing with Andre Previn and Sonny Rollins and Richie Kamuca & John Gross all makes sense as life being lived according to life, not as marketing slogan, because things are really thisthenthat, things are always this. Hermosa Beach, Watts Tower, know them both, since both should be known - to all!

So comforatablebecauseitreferenceswhatIknow label users, yeah, it's working for you now, no problem as far as that goes. But in your wills, I'm hoping you'll not leave this one defined as is.

[Peter Friedman]

The question of labeling things has long been a bone of contention is all sorts of realms. If we extend Jim's argument just a tiny bit (or perhaps not at all), we should do away with all labels in jazz. No more use of tems such as New Orleans Jazz, Dixieland, Swing, Mainstream, Bebop, West Coast Jazz, Hard Bop, Avante Garde Jazz, Free Jazz, Latin Jazz Soul Jazz, and whatever others I left off the list. Just use one term - Jazz.

And following that let's drop the terms Jazz, Classical, Pop, Rock, etc. and just call all of it music.

I suspect some would prefer such an approach, but I am not one of them.

As long as We understand that music labels are not rigid and limiting, but rather shorthand devices that provide assistance in making sense out of greatly diverse areas, they are very useful.

When I come across the name of a saxophone player with whom I am unfamiliar, or the name of a symphonic composer whose name is new to me, one of the things I am interested in discovering is what stylistic approach is involved. Perhaps that should not matter, as quality must be the key. However, for me personally, stylistic caterories are important.

[Larry Kart]

Also consider that there was a "scene" on the East Coast identical to that of the "West Coast Jazz" - players who worked the studio, played jazz as/when available, writers who wrote beyond the conventional conveniences, etcetc, yet is this what is known as "East Coast Jazz"? Well of course not, becuase that was not the only thing going on on the east coast. and yet "East Coast Jazz" = "hard bop" which was one of many things going on the east coast at the time. These guys had a marketing code word, usually something like "workshop"...East Coast "Workshop" often the spiritual cousin to "West Coast Jazz".

One swallow doesn't make a summer, as they say, but as it happens there is an album that nicely demonstrates that the '"scene" on the East Coast [that you feel was] identical to that of the "West Coast Jazz" -- players who worked the studio, played jazz as/when available, writers who wrote beyond the conventional conveniences, etc. etc," was not in fact so. The album is "East Coast -West Coast Scene" (RCA), from 1954, and it features Al Cohn and his 'Charlie's Tavern' Ensemble and Shorty Rogers and his Augmented Giants -- three longish tracks for each group. Cohn's group includes Joe Newman, Billy Byers, Eddie Bert, Hal McKusick, Gene Quill, Sol Schlinger, Sanford Gold, Billy Bauer, Milt Hinton, and Osie Johnson; Rogers group includes Milt Bernhart, Bob Enevoldsen, Lennie Niehaus, Bud Shank, Zoot Sims, Jimmy Guiffre, Pete Jolly, Barney Kessel, Curtis Counce, and Shelly Manne. I'm telling you that both back in the day and now, no one with much listening experience would have thought that just about any of the soloists (with the exception of Sims, who just happened to be L.A.-based at the time, and the rather faceless Gold) or any of the writing came from a coast other than the one from which they/it actually came. Maybe, that's because I was around at the time and (as a young but assiduous fan) was more or less immersed in the various musical/stylistic "cues" that were involved, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Note BTW that none of those East Coast players was part of the then just taking shape "Hard Bop" musical scene. If any of them had been, that of course would have made stylistic differentiation between players from the two "coasts" a good deal easier.