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How did you find your way to 'classical' music?


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1. Did you grow up in a household with classical music around you?

No. My mother and her parents all liked music, but the contemporary pop of their respective generations, which I also liked.

2. Did you learn an instrument and experience classical music that way?

No. I took piano lessons, but too late in childhood for it to be of any benefit. I could never relate the "boring" scales and exercises I played with "music" as I enjoyed it.

3. How does classical music relate to your love of jazz? A secondary interest, a primary interest (with jazz in second place) or part of the seamless web of music?

I have no idea! It seems a separate thing to me, and as I understand jazz better, presumably it's a secondary interest, although I listen to it at least as much as jazz these days.

I liked the big tune from Brahms' 1st symphony, and was surprised when I took that out of the library that the whole piece didn't make any sense to me. I had to work at it, listen to it over and over until it began to come together, and gradually the learning became easier.

That's exactly how I developed an appreciation of classical. I gravitated to classical off my own back during primary school, alongside pop bands with an orchestrated sound, such as ELO and Sky. From the age of 8 or 9 I would haunt the record department of my local WH Smiths and when I had enough money saved, buy a coveted cassette. Some of my "classical" purchases were, with hindsight, tragic (Hooked on Classics), some forgivable (Richard Clayderman*), some fine if obvious (The Four Seasons, 1812 Overture).

To come back to the above quote, though, the breakthrough was when I bought Prokofiev's Lt Kije Suite because I liked Troika. Also on the cassette was the 1st symphony (the Classical), and I played it repeatedly until I was "into" it (the luxury of having very few albums and endless time). I find that approach still pays off when acclimatising myself to an unfamiliar piece (classical or jazz), but too much music, too little time these days.

* Regarding him, I got into jazz partly because Michael Parkinson said "I don't know how anyone can listen to Richard Clayderman when they could listen to Oscar Peterson"

BTW Bev. Which Anthony Hopkins books do you recommend?

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BTW Bev. Which Anthony Hopkins books do you recommend?

They may be OOP (you're more likely to find Alan Titchmarsh's guide to the classics these days!!!!)

Anthony Hopkins The Concertgoers Companion

Does what it says - takes some of the most commonly played music in UK concert halls from Bach to Shostakovich - and gives you a brief rundown of what is going on.

I suspect it is based on his long running BBC radio series of the late-20thC.

The Nine Symphonies of Beethoven

A much more detailed exploration but still understandable to the non-musician. I think I really learnt to love Beethoven whilst reading this and listening to the symphonies alongside each chapter.

**************

Give an ear to 'Discovering Music' on Radio 3 on Sundays. Stephen Johnson does a similar thing, analysing a piece of music in an accessible, non-arty-farty way.

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  • 5 years later...

This question related to jazz has generated a few threads. Given the discussions going on in the 'what are you listening to' thread, I'd be interested to hear how people developed an interest in a music that is only marginally more popular than jazz.

Three questions (no need to answer all or any...just thought joggers)...

1. Did you grow up in a household with classical music around you?

2. Did you learn an instrument and experience classical music that way?

3. How does classical music relate to your love of jazz? A secondary interest, a primary interest (with jazz in second place) or part of the seamless web of music?

**********************

1. Yes. Dad always has been an enthusiastic classical music lover. He's 90 now and currently taking an online music course through Yale University. Amazon packages arrive regularly at his door, he's a Spotify subscriber, attends Met broadcasts at the local theater, a Berlin virtual concert hall subscriber. He's always been all in.

He had a study up on the third floor in the home I grew up in and would retire there after dinner most evenings to listen to music. It was a solitary enjoyment for him. We didn't have it piped through the house or anything like that. It was his time to enjoy his music. Door would close, mysterious sounds would drift down the stairwell. We'd leave him alone to enjoy. He would invite me in from time to time and he'd play one of his records and then play one of mine that I'd selected. And we'd go back and forth like that. Fond memory. He would suffer through Cat Stevens or something and I'd suffer through Sibelius.

I think it was his way of trying to gently lead me toward classical music but I had my own ideas, of course.

Both my parents enjoyed the opera, my dad more than my mother. In music, there were things she really loved and other things she couldn't tolerate. Seemed to have something to do with the loudness of the music --1812 overture was not her favorite.

2. "Learn" an instrument is a much too generous way to describe it. My dad tried to learn violin (I still have the violin he used back in the '60s and '70s, (recently buffed up at a local music shop). He wasn't that successful, but he gave it a good go.

I took piano lessons, played trombone in the high school band, taught myself to strum a guitar, made some horrible noises through a trumpet, learned to play scales on the violin, took 20 years off, took saxophone lessons, then clarinet. None of it oriented toward classical music and none of it suitable for public consumption (except the trombone, marginally, where I was safely hidden in the back row of the band.)

3. Currently not listening to much jazz. Mostly classical.

Classical music didn't really click for me until fairly recently. Not sure what it was but everything just kind of fell into place and (as with jazz years ago) the floodgates opened.

I'm fortunate enough to live in a place where the arts in general are given great emphasis. So opportunities to enjoy classical music, chamber music, opera, recitals, etc., are everywhere. And I don't recall attending a musical event here that wasn't very well-attended. An enthusiastic bunch, these Midwestern retirees.

So while I was certainly exposed to classical music from a very young age, I wasn't necessarily encouraged to investigate it. Left to my own devices I stumbled off in other directions. I took the scenic route, but eventually arrived.

Edited by papsrus
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papsrus, all the best to you Dad!

Regarding my interest in classical music, it was sort of accidental. My parents had close to no interest in classical music. They listened to the Beatles and Italian pop music, which was very popular in the Soviet Union in '70s and '80s, for whatever reason. There were some halfhearted attempts to teach me piano and guitar, but I successfully sabotaged them. I started consciously listening to music probably around 12. I had a couple of Beatles tapes that I would listen to over and over. I think this is then when I realised that music is important for me. Then it was Pink Floyd's "The Wall" that I listened to non.stop for a year or so when I was 13 or something. And then one day I decided to check out these two tapes that my parents received from their Canadian friends. By that time the tapes, still sealed, were lying around our apartment for a couple of years already. One of them was Stravinsky's Petrushka, and the other one was Firebird (both by Montreal Symphony Orchestra, Charles Dutoit conducting). This was the first time I listened to classical music voluntarily. I liked them, to my surprise. Did not love them, but liked them. So over the next few years, as my musical interests shifted to Heavy Metal to Prog Rock / Frank Zappa to - finally - jazz, I would occasionally pop these Stravinsky tapes into player and listen. I liked the music more and more, to the point that when I was around 19 I attended a few classical music concerts (to my parents' surprise). By mid-20s I was mostly listening to jazz, and started buying CDs. Occasionally I would buy some semi-random classical music CD. I bought Prokofiev violin sonatas because I liked the CD cover, one of the first CDs I bought. Nearly 20 years later this is still one of my favorite ones. Very gradually classical music started occupying more and more of my listening time, and by now it is probably 80%. I still love the Beatles, though (but nothing will force me to listen to The Wall again)!

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This echoes post #3 above, but what the heck:

My Mom loved classical music (her younger brother was an accomplished amateur violinist and boyhood friend of violinist Leonard Sorkin, founder of the Fine Arts Quartet), and she and my Dad went to CSO concerts et al. and had some record albums. As for me the young jazz fan, I pretty much thought that classical music, especially 19th Century orchestral music, was about the same thing as Mantovani -- sticky-sweet swooping and swooning. Then one day I put on a Vox Box set my Mom had of the Mozart String Quintets, and the light went on; it's never gone off.

I think it was No. 5, K, 593, that caught my attention first -- the one with the slow intro (just solo cello at first), and then into "swing" so to speak. The logic of it all was amazing to me, still is:

Later on in high school I had a friend who was into Webern and Schoenberg and who could actually play some of their things on the piano. Did a lot of listening there and am grateful that as a result much supposedly difficult modern music has always made sense to me -- the sorts of it that do in fact make sense, of course. :)

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There was no classical music in my home. However, my parents did subscribe to the Detroit Symphony Orchestra series. The Detroit Public Schools had a program where they took elementary school classes to some afternoon concerts to introduce them to classical music. I attended a number of those concerts, but for the most part wasn't crazy about them.

As a young child my mother made me take piano lessons. I hated to practice so the lessons didn't last long, and I never really learned to play the piano.

My actual serious entrance to classical music was when I attended Michigan State University and my roommate had an interest in classical music. He brought classical records to college and I brought jazz records. He learned to like jazz and i learned to appreciate classical music. I recall that among the very first of his records that I truly liked was music by Rachmaninoff, Greig and Tchaikovsky.

But my interest in jazz was so dominant that I gradually lost any serious interest in classical music for many many years.

A peculiar situation was responsible for reawakening my focus on classical music. In 1984 I bought my first CD player. There were very limited options of jazz CDs available at that time. The classical selection of CDs was much more extensive. So as I wanted new CDs to listen to on my new player, after buying the few jazz CDs of interest that were available I began to buy classical CDs. I soon became very interested in many of the classical CDs I had purchased.

I have the collector gene, so it was"natural" for me to add collecting classical CDs to my lifelong collecting of jazz records/CDs.

From that point on my interest continued to grow and my classical CD collection grew and grew. While jazz has always been and continues to be my first love,

classical music became also a very important part of my life.

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Really interesting to read these experiences. Thanks, all.

A peculiar situation was responsible for reawakening my focus on classical music. In 1984 I bought my first CD player. There were very limited options of jazz CDs available at that time. The classical selection of CDs was much more extensive. So as I wanted new CDs to listen to on my new player, after buying the few jazz CDs of interest that were available I began to buy classical CDs. I soon became very interested in many of the classical CDs I had purchased.

I think I had a similar experience. My first major classical burst went from around 1978 to 1980 (when I first starting working full time). I then shifted to jazz and folk. But buying my first CD player in 1985 I also experienced the limited options on CD - for a while releases were dominated by classical (the classical industry was well ahead of the game) and mainstream rock/pop. From then until around 1991 my buying was dominated by classical.

The two hiatuses (hiatai?) in 1980 and 1991 were brought about by buying new playing equipment that troubled me. In both cases I sense irritating pitch distortions that were far more noticeable in classical music. So I went off in the jazz/folk direction again. The first problem turned out to be the cartridge I was using; the second a fault in my amp.

Classical returned as an area of major interest again in the mid-noughties. I think breaking past the mid-20thC and also backwards into pre-18thC music helped there, giving me new areas to explore (of course there are still several lifetimes of exploration left in my usual stamping grounds).

Edited by A Lark Ascending
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My dad listened to nothing but classical music. It didn't really connect with me, except subconsciously, as a child. But after college I gradually started to drift into more "serious" music.

I did not really hook up to jazz until graduate school. I don't remember what started it, but I found a book about the "101 Best Jazz Albums" which was really a short jazz history. Discovered Ellington and then the Monk set at Mosaic and that was that.

I'm not sure my interest in either area are that connected except to the extent that both Jazz and Classical allow you to explore more complicated forms and structures, and my intellectually snobbish engineer brain likes that.

I never played an instrument seriously. A bit of piano, a little clarinet in school band. I didn't like to practice.
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1. Did you grow up in a household with classical music around you?

Classical music was in my household. As well as a bit of jazz, mostly swing music.

2. Did you learn an instrument and experience classical music that way?

No, I learned instruments much later, after my tastes in music were pretty set, though listening to classical with frequency and big interest came later still it was not related to playing an instrument.

3. How does classical music relate to your love of jazz? A secondary interest, a primary interest (with jazz in second place) or part of the seamless web of music?

Part of the seamless web of music that I am interested and also catalyzed by the fact that it is a music I can share with my parents.

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I heard a certain amount of classical music growing up, but not a huge amount.

I must credit Thee Great Carl Stalling for being probably my first major introduction to classical music. I hope that I never in my life hear the entire Barber of Seville, because I know that it can never be as great as the Warner Brothers cartoon under any possible circumstances.

I was self-taught on piano as a kid, but when I began studying formally as a teen, I had an affinity for both baroque and modern music (Debussy, Ravel and later), but the romantic and classical eras did little for me, save Chopin, whose music I adore.

The two big things that got me into classical music as an adult, though, were (1) my love of film scores, particularly the era of eclectic, adventurous film scoring that occurred roughly between the late 1950s and mid-1970s; and (2) my love of jazz arranging and orchestration.

There are advantages to having a haphazard musical education: You end up with all sorts of weird fourth-dimension references, relationships, and juxtapositions in your mind. On the other hand, the references are often upside-down. Listening to Sinatra's Where are You and No One Cares as a kid, I had no idea that Gordon Jenkins was channeling Mahler and Tchaikovsky. Now, whenever I hear the final movement of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique, I keep waiting for Frank to come in, but he never arrives.

Edited by Teasing the Korean
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There are advantages to having a haphazard musical education

Indeed.

I'm pretty sure that if I'd had a proper musical education, formally learning an instrument etc, I'd have got locked into classical music and missed most of everything else. Auto-didactism might well lead to a haphazard and eccentric view of music (with huge gaps everywhere), but it doesn't half bring you to some interesting places.

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How did I (re)find my way to it?

Literally, by walking to it.

Long story shorter (HA!) - about a year and a half ago, had an iPod full of blogosphere illicities and was running through them in alphabetical order while walking each evening. One summer's eve (hope I don't sound like a douche for saying that), it was Toscanini's Beethoven 9. Well sir, I was already planning on a long walk through a very quiet neighborhood, and....I don't know, right place, right time, whatever it was, that sucker literally took me to another place (and it didn't hurt that T's accelerated tempos made the shit sound like Zawinul to me on that initial listen, hello, Arrogant Austrian Brilliance!)...I looked up at some point and realized that I had walked into some streets that I had nver been on before. But rather than freaking out or anything, I just told myself that I'd figure it out later and went right back into the music.

One thing quickly led to another, and this was around the time than Branford told the world that Fathead was not a jazz musician. A little thereafter, I heard a passage in, I don't remember, some Janacek thing(?) where the line sounded to me exactly like the kind of logically insane melodic/harmonic modulation that Ornette would do. So again, right place, right time, open to suggestion, suggestion offered, context considered, suggestion accepted.

Now believe me, I studied "classical music" in school - theory, scores, conducting, performance practices, basic playing skills on all instruments, had to pass a piano jury as well as a saxophone on, same thing every music ed student goes thorugh, just at a really good school with a bar so high that I got over it, but not without struggle, and not without some scaryass near-misses. The music itself was not unknown to me. But for years, decades, I didn't want any part of it because the jazz thing was still alive/expanding/whatever. I saw no need to engage this "other" music, jazz and it's cultural familials were offering me every intellectual and emotional opportunity as both player and listener I could handle. Whatever challenges and satisfactions I looked for, there they were. Always.

But something began changing a few years ago. Playing got predictable-ish for me, I got disillusioned by how easily "gesture" could create "emotion", it didn't have to be real as long as it seemed real. Not jsut for others, but for self. That's too long to get into now (and probably is not anything I'd want to ever get into too deeply with anybody in public...it's a personal thing and runs deep for me, so...onward). And then, all the records started sounding like something I already knew or answers to questions that I'd already asked myself and had either found my own answer to or were on my way to finding my own answer to. Some notable, profound exceptions, of course, but overall, just got too "familiar". And then, oh Fathead's not a jazz musician, that was the final straw, I was actually liberated by that, because hey, I didn't leave the party, the party left me, ok?

Then, as per the seek/find paradigm, all this wonderfully spirited music is just there, dirt cheap as often as not, because as few people pursue jazz records, I think even less go after classical, especially so-called "{modern" classical, which is really what I'm finding my way into right now. I can go straight from Bach to Beethoven to Wagner to R. Strauss without really missing all the in-betweens (although, the consistently momentary surprises of Brahm's harmony continues to get my ear), but all the stuff that probably had (and still well may) have "traditionalists" all WTF? in any combination confusion and/or rage, that's the sort of thing that is getting to me the same way that the best jazz of any era still does, that whole spirit of doing it this way because that's how it has to be, I love that, whether the end results are spectacular or fail miserably, or even end up being mediocre as all hell, it's ok, I'm not looking for "greatness", I'm looking for people who need to be doing something. Fuck "great", "great" is for history to decide. I'll be dead by then, right? Not gonna matter to me what history decides about any of this. "Right side of history"? Right side of NOW, ok? Hard to hit a moving target, etc. and if somebody's not shooting at you, hell, aim at yourself and fire away, get those terpsichorean chops RACING!

Would also like to add that I have been the beneficiary of some invaluable guidance, generosity, and wisdom about this whole sphere of music from a handful of some of the best musical minds I have ever had the privilege to communicate with. Like the man said, I don't want nobody to give me nothing, open up the door, I'll get it myself. But there's a lot of doors, and these people continue to be nice enough to open them. For that, I feel both blessed and indebted. Some of them come from within the ranks here, so...need to offer a thanks here as well.

And yes, I am still as distrustful of any world in which Elliot Carter gets all sorts of institutionalized supports on all kinds of levels and, for just one example, Herbie Nichols gets..what, some occasional hipster cred and the occasional serious playing? But that's another thing entirely, quite apart from the genius that comes through loud and clear in the actual music of each. At some point, I think you have to be honest about music itself, music, take it out of the cultural trappings (which are not the same thing as the culture itself, culture gives life, trappings just give...traps) and hear it as music, hear the life in it. Not everybody has an equal life, but everybody has life equally (at least while they have it), and that's from whence the good stuff springs, any of it. All of it..

So, yeah, life goes on, eh?

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Jim, though my experience is very different than yours, and I am one of the "Traditionalists" you mentioned, one point you made is one I can identify with very well.

One reason I "stayed away" from classical music for many years was my frustration that classical music received so much institutional support in a variety of ways, while jazz was ignored by the political and economic power groups.

Though you did not mention this, the formality of sitting stiffly with a suit on in a very large concert hall was a turn off.

I found sitting in a smoke filled jazz club, dressed more casually with a drink on the table far more pleasant.

When I returned to classical music in the mid 80's and began to attend concerts I found chamber music especially more to my taste.

Not only did I really like the string quartets, piano trios, etc., but the much much smaller venues provided an intimacy that was more in line with the way I preferred to listen to jazz.

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Yeah, we've subscribed to two chamber music series here, one "established", the other a bit "maverick"-y, and both are very good at presenting their programs in comfortable surrounds and avoid intimidating "class-preferential" trappings, at least as much as possible. What both series offer though, is an opportunity to hear more modern musics as well as the old standbys. This is by design, obviously,

The DSO, otoh, is pretty much forced into being what they are, and we'll go when there's something playing we real want to hear, but the chamber music presentations are definitely more about getting good music to anybody who wants it than it is creating/sustaining an "institution".

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One reason I "stayed away" from classical music for many years was my frustration that classical music received so much institutional support in a variety of ways, while jazz was ignored by the political and economic power groups.

Though you did not mention this, the formality of sitting stiffly with a suit on in a very large concert hall was a turn off.

I found sitting in a smoke filled jazz club, dressed more casually with a drink on the table far more pleasant.

And yet-- and this enfolding J's mention of Herbie Nichols above, while we can't overstate American racism, personal and institutional, overt and coded, malevolent and paternalistic etc etc...

Jazz was, for a few decades, a HUGELY popular music; what "help" did it "need" that the "market" didn't/couldn't provide? There are. certaonly, examples...

Whereas 'classical' music was nearly always the provence of patrons, going on 5-6-700 years by then--

PAUSE

J & anyone else, Robert Greenberg can be a little hyped but get thee ASAP to his The Great Courses lectures on Verdi; public library might have, I got mine via Audible.com, whatever... This specifically both because Verdi's musical genius but also his eventful, often admirable & sometimes very difficult life making it as composer in the popular marketplace-- I've actually not seen this video before but...

END PAUSE

and so while I agree about sometimes unfortunate distribution of resources etc-- though not as much as I greatly lament the declime of common music education in American schools-- there were some legit reasons for this and, be careful what we wish for, as all the $$$ & opportunity in the world hasn't turned Wynton Marsalis into even a good composer. We can name numerous other, lesser examples, for every giant like Wadada, Roscoe, Tony etc etc... Why do ya'll think George Walker-- sorry to say, for him and for us- can come off somewhat embittered?

p/s: can't-- should never-- forget John Carter.

Edited by MomsMobley
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Yeah, we've subscribed to two chamber music series here, one "established", the other a bit "maverick"-y, and both are very good at presenting their programs in comfortable surrounds and avoid intimidating "class-preferential" trappings, at least as much as possible. What both series offer though, is an opportunity to hear more modern musics as well as the old standbys. This is by design, obviously,

The DSO, otoh, is pretty much forced into being what they are, and we'll go when there's something playing we real want to hear, but the chamber music presentations are definitely more about getting good music to anybody who wants it than it is creating/sustaining an "institution".

Do you think that chamber music, or classically oriented small ensembles -- the music itself, from baroque to modern -- has perhaps more similarities to jazz than large orchestral music? And that that is part of the appeal? That sort of small ensemble, clear interplay of the instruments, highly ornate or detailed, call and response kind of thing that is a feature of both jazz and small ensemble classical?

Large orchestras have their own big-wallop appeal. And I've no particular aversion to the concert hall but I think there's a lifeline there between jazz and small ensemble classical that probably strikes a chord, pardon the pun.

And I agree the kind of settings where these small ensemble performances tend to take place are often more inviting / casual / intimate than the concert hall and therefore more enjoyable in some respects. But at the same time, it seems concert halls, opera houses are trying to be more inviting. You still get the fur coat crowd but seems just as many slap on a sport coat and khakis.

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In Britain being a 'chamber music' aficionado will get you far more connoisseur-points than attending an orchestral concert. If you want to be seen as a person of taste and discrimination you're better off saying you are going to the Wigmore Hall than the Barbican or South Bank.

I've seen so many attempts to demystify classical music, try to make it sexy etc - I remember in the late-80s at the time of the CD boom orchestras popping up using amplification and light shows. Didn't last long.

The trouble here is that classical music is so tied up with the class system. Audiences might be more diverse than fifty years ago and no-one expects you to dress up but the rituals of performance haven't changed at all in my lifetime (and I suspect much longer than that). The penguin suits, refusal of anyone on stage to speak to the audience, the maestro idolatry etc. Exactly the sort of thing you see in Parliamentary 'tradition' and the endless royal rituals elsewhere. They all exist as a way of saying 'we shouldn't rock the boat too much or we will lose all these lovely things'. The rituals of classic music presentation seem to be upheld for the same reason.

I did read somewhere of places in London where classical performances were taking place in clubs. People sit on cushions, drift in and out, there's a bar etc. But that doesn't seem usual.

If you want evidence that nothing is changing just look at the recent reports that a new London concert hall is being explored with George Osborne (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) declaring his interest. Now here is a man who is part of a government dedicated to wrecking the public sector yet he suddenly finds a new concert hall a good idea. You can be sure that if it is built it will follow the traditional way of presenting classical music. Probably an election gimmick on Osborne's part (also brought on by envy of the new Paris hall - 'world class' concert halls and opera houses are big virility symbols for governments like nuclear missiles).

I like going to live classical concerts in a variety of genres - you do get a different experience. Yet, recorded classical music was where I cut my teeth and has been the main way I've engaged with and enjoyed it. You can always turn the lights out, lose yourself in music and then all the bolloxing that swirls around the music simply vanishes into thin air.

Edited by A Lark Ascending
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For some reason people like to carry class war into classical music in this country but it is a myth. What I see at concerts is a serious and music-loving audience. No-one is dressed up. Tickets cost less than a ticket for Premier League football and are easier to come by. The famous Royal Festival Hall is part of the South Bank Centre which was commissioned after WWII by a Labour Government to celebrate the Festival of Britain. Symphony Hall in Birmingham had cross-party support and is credited with leading urban regeneration in that city. A new concert hall in London would be part of a regeneration scheme to create a new arts hub - it all creates work and opportunity.

As for the canard about listening 'rituals', I have never understood why people call for change in the area of classical music only. Would this be desirable in the (dramatic) theatre? Would it actually be a good idea to serve drinks during King Lear and have people talking and moving about? Or during the Four Last Songs? Or during Die Meistersinger? Even at the movies there is a general hope that people will sit quietly and not distract others.

There are historical and recent examples of different practices, but my guess is the reason recent experiments didn't take is that people actually like to be in a quiet and attentive audience. I've a feeling they like the orchestra in black, too. Gives a sense of occasion, and like a school uniform it makes it easy for musicians to dress and not have to consider fashion every night. I've seen a lot of musicians and conductors get well-deserved applause, and I can see a clear difference between the reception of what is merely creditable and what is evidently outstanding, but I don't see any evidence of 'idolatry.' And speaking to the audience? About what? You can always go to hear MTT or Marin Alsop, who do do that, if that is what you want. Again, no-one claims that Anthony Sher should have a chat with the audience before he plays Falstaff. And there are often pre-concert talks, as separate events, for those who like the chat. Or just read the concert program.

Edited by David Ayers
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