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How did you find your way to 'classical' music?


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Yeah, we've subscribed to two chamber music series here, one "established", the other a bit "maverick"-y, and both are very good at presenting their programs in comfortable surrounds and avoid intimidating "class-preferential" trappings, at least as much as possible. What both series offer though, is an opportunity to hear more modern musics as well as the old standbys. This is by design, obviously,

The DSO, otoh, is pretty much forced into being what they are, and we'll go when there's something playing we real want to hear, but the chamber music presentations are definitely more about getting good music to anybody who wants it than it is creating/sustaining an "institution".

Do you think that chamber music, or classically oriented small ensembles -- the music itself, from baroque to modern -- has perhaps more similarities to jazz than large orchestral music? And that that is part of the appeal? That sort of small ensemble, clear interplay of the instruments, highly ornate or detailed, call and response kind of thing that is a feature of both jazz and small ensemble classical?

Large orchestras have their own big-wallop appeal. And I've no particular aversion to the concert hall but I think there's a lifeline there between jazz and small ensemble classical that probably strikes a chord, pardon the pun.

And I agree the kind of settings where these small ensemble performances tend to take place are often more inviting / casual / intimate than the concert hall and therefore more enjoyable in some respects. But at the same time, it seems concert halls, opera houses are trying to be more inviting. You still get the fur coat crowd but seems just as many slap on a sport coat and khakis.

It's not an exnsemble-size issue for me. Hell, I've dug big bands of some type or another ever since I can remember.

What I like about these two series we go to is simple - repertoire (always more modern than the DSO. , but not exclusively modern). cost (much less expensive to go to the chamber series than to the DSO. For that matter, less expensive to go to any one of the "local" orchestras than the DSO, but they're so "pops"/etc, oriented, I'll save my money thanks, and of no minor influence, genearal admission seating to the chamber events. If you do the work and leave early enough to be right at the the door when it opens, you can get primo seating, both visually and accoustically.

Check this out: http://www.dallaschambermusic.org/70thseason/A four concert season, $40/ticket but if you subscribe, $30/ticket.

Also this - http://www.nashersculpturecenter.org/engage/event?id=148$25/ticket. I saw Alicia Weilerstein give a totally kickass solo recital, sat about20 feet away from her, could see the individual strings on her bow when she rosined it, and heard at least as well as that, for 25 bucks. If you even halfway got ears for that, you can almost certainly find some kind of 25 bucks and some kind of ride, dig? And check out the other offerings, modernish music, fresh faces, yeah, more of that, please.

You can get deals from DSO, but it's...not guarantee. I had an orchestra rep (a guy named Leonard Benedettio, real nice guy) call me offering "2 Beethovens & a Mahler for $99!!!" and since we were available any night, we got floor seats for all of 'em. The DSO is a good-and-getting-better orchestra, and they Meyerson is a GREAT sounding hall, so when they play something I know I'm going to want to hear, like "2 Beethovens & a Mahler", if you want good seats, expect to pay a little on either side of $100/per, and be ready to attend an "event". I mean, it's all cool, but it's a whole 'nother thing than the chamber events.,

And even at the DSO, there's not the stuffiness that used to be par for the course.People come dressed up all kinds of ways, and there's a healthy number of young peoples too. There's also the "patrons of the arts" types, but hell, these arts need patrons, and these are them. What are they supposed to do, give the money and then stay at home? That's not right! Besides, I had inadvertently backed into a nice chat with the Mrs. Nasher who's know running the Nasher estate at the Weilerstein gig, and she was a very, very nice lady. I thanked her for making this kind of thing accessible to people like Brenda and me, and she all of a sudden beamed and exclaimed, "well, it SHOULD be!". That was her parent's way, art for the public, just put it anywhere for everybody, Warhols hanging in a mall, problem, Officer? So, that was cool.No, we ain't gonna go to Whataburger after the gig, but hey, she was cool.

Main thing is, I'm excited to have options. Definitely not options like in Chicago or New York, but still, options. And all the podcasts and streaming radios featuring "modern" classical music and all the cheap used CDs of them available on Amazon, it's just...nice to have a sense of discovery again, not like, oh, that WAS a dog turd I just stepped in, that' what I get for not paying attention, but the kind of, wow, I didn't know this was here, and geez, looks like I'm gonna be here for a while surprise, the good kind.

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Would it actually be a good idea to serve drinks during King Lear...?

To the audience? Or to Lear?

I think watching Lear getting tore down while simultaneously falling apart would make for a unique entertainment experience.

Hell, people want to buy drinks for the band, go ahead and buy drinks for Lear. Show the man some love, he's having a hard time, we've all been there, right?

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I do tend to hear a closer relationship to jazz small groups in chamber music as compared to large symphony orchestras.

For me personally, the intimate setting of a small venue for both jazz and classical music is very important.

I much prefer to be close to the musicians and that way feel more directly involved in the music when attending a live performance.

I do not, with only very very rare exceptions attend jazz concerts in large halls or go to huge festivals.

I prefer clubs or the Jazz Party experience where the room and size of the audience is usually no more than two to

three hundred and fifty people.

I don't care to listen to a symphony concert in a hall that hold 2 to 3 thousand people. The chamber music series I attend

typically has an audience of about 4 hundred people and is in a very nice small auditorium.

Music by symphony orchestras is something I prefer to hear at home with my good quality sound system with me sitting about 10 feet away from the speakers.

I usually have a cup pf coffee at my side.

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Depending where one lives and travels too, some of the best-- and best deals-- in chamber music can heard in college/university music schools, usually, if not always for FREE. I can't remember where I saw it-- American Organist magazine maybe?-- but I've even seen ads about retiring to Oberlin and/or Bloomington because of the music schools' concert programs. (Ghost of Miles in Bloomington too.)

speaking of chamber music

Edited by MomsMobley
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The trouble here is that classical music is so tied up with the class system. Audiences might be more diverse than fifty years ago and no-one expects you to dress up but the rituals of performance haven't changed at all in my lifetime (and I suspect much longer than that). The penguin suits, refusal of anyone on stage to speak to the audience, the maestro idolatry etc. Exactly the sort of thing you see in Parliamentary 'tradition' and the endless royal rituals elsewhere. They all exist as a way of saying 'we shouldn't rock the boat too much or we will lose all these lovely things'. The rituals of classic music presentation seem to be upheld for the same reason.

We have quite a few concerts where artists / moderators would talk to the audience in between pieces here in Vienna. I hate this. I am there for the music, I am really not interested in hearing about the troubled life of the composer during the concert, I can read about it at home if I choose so. I am not sure what is so "class system" about the tradition of focusing on music during the concert.

I also saw a few orchestras performing while not wearing tuxedos, it did not feel like a revolutionary event of rupture with tradition, and did not enhance my concert experience in any way.

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It's not about enhancing the concert experience. It's about the signals all this 'tradition' gives off. Not to the people who are there but to those who wouldn't even dream of going because it is such an alien world. I've been going to classical concerts since 1974 and I still find the presentation alienating.

Talking to your audience is just about establishing a bit of human contact - it's about breaking down the barriers between the maestros and the listeners. I find some jazz concerts equally at fault - that atmosphere of 'you are here to commune with my art, I don't need to speak to you'. Give me Alan Barnes any day. I'm not arguing for the sort of 'club' atmosphere that has been experimented with. The quiet while the music is playing is important to me too. Just could do without the whole 'going to church' atmosphere of the classical concert.

I went to a wonderful small group concert a few years back where the leader introduced each piece with a few words about why they'd chosen to perform it. Created a warm atmosphere a world away from the stony faced maestro accepting the adulation of the cognoscenti (even before he's lifted his or her baton).

As for the proposed new London concert hall, there's a huge conurbation of cities with good transport links on either side of the Pennines. How about building it there? Doesn't London have enough?

Edited by A Lark Ascending
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Those perceived formalities are often just that, and orchestras these days seem more and more intent on presenting music in settings that are informal in order to dispel those myths.

I may have read about it here, but one such experiment involved setting up the NYPO, I think, in a public space in New York and inviting members of the public to conduct. I think the arrangement was the orchestra would sit silent until someone stepped up to the podium and grabbed the baton, and away they went. Ingenious (and inviting) way to extend a welcoming, informal hand.

The slogan on the cover of this season's guide to the Sarasota Orchestra is "Come as you are, leave different." Illustrates the point. We want you no matter who you are or what you wear. Just come listen to us.

As for the penguin suits (or all-black attire), while the custom was certainly borne of a formal tradition, I agree with an above comment that today it probably just relieves the musicians from having to think about what they'll wear and kind of gives the orchestra a unified, nondescript look. What the musicians wear shouldn't be a distraction. That's the intent, I think.

And for a new concert hall in London, I've no doubt they'll build one. It seems every article I read about a concert in London includes the disclaimer that Royal Festival Hall, Barbican (take your pick) are deficient. (Although some of the chamber music halls in London are said to be excellent). I just read something tonight about the Berliners' residency at both houses and there it was -- copy and paste -- the halls did not complement the orchestra's strengths. Pity, etc.

Anyways, no doubt there are certain perceived formalities that the keep the hoi polloi from attending concerts, the opera, recitals and the like. No doubt orchestras and music organizations are trying to dispel those myths.

Edited by papsrus
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This is interesting:

REPRODUCING CLASS? CLASSICAL MUSIC EDUCATION AND INEQUALITY

If you are inside the system everything looks classless. An outreach programme here, a family concert there and everything is hunky dory.

I was especially intrigued by:

My current research, looking at young people aged 16-21 who participate in youth orchestras and youth choirs, seeks to explore these links. For the lower-middle-class young people in my study, classical music often was a route towards class mobility, or improving their class position. For some, it was an escape route out of the area they had grown up in, and a way to learn how to be middle class.

As mentioned earlier I found an interest in music designated 'classical' partly through random 'best of' records played at home, largely through prog rock. But I was in a 'grammar' school stream in first a grammar school (a state school that selected according to an exam at 11) and later a comprehensive school (a state school that admits from the local area unselectively, the norm in state education since the 60s) where we were encouraged to aspire to 'the finer things in life.' I recall feeling a mixture of resistance but also guilt. I don't think I consciously chose to start listening to classical music as way of 'learning to be middle class' - but I'm pretty sure that I slid into that route because it seemed to be appropriate to where I hoped to be heading. I find this section very telling:

Furthermore, sociological literature on parenting and class shows that it is middle-class parents who prioritise investing in their child’s future. By contrast, working-class parents are less likely to be able to afford the time or money to do this. They tend to be more likely to see the child as a fully-formed person in their own right, rather than investing in the person they are going to be.

I work in a school of 2500 students. 400 new ones arrive with each intake. Yet the A Level (pre-university) classes for music rarely reach double figures. Lots of kids play guitars etc, there are regular rock pop based talent shows that draw enthusiastic responses, an excellent school choir, a (very) small orchestra that performs in school plays. But the academic route that leads to classical music is virtually non-existent. The music teachers are excellent as is shown by the vibrancy of the non-classical musical life. I'd argue the dearth of interest in classical music (and other non-mainstream musics) is rooted in class and class culture for reasons outlined in that article. I regularly use classical/jazz/folk/blues in teaching - it usually gets a smile and a response of 'here's that weird music again'. The kids have little context for it from their wider lives.

But the classical music establishment will maintain that they are doing lots to break down barriers. It probably looks like that from inside the ivory tower.

Edited by A Lark Ascending
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I had no real exposure to classical music for more than 63 years. Began listening seriously about four months ago with much appreciated help from a friend. I'm just beginning to find my way - only about 30-40 recordings in my collection. I know that my previous listening - jazz, blues, country, ethnic, pop, whatever - has affected the way I listen to classical music and what I hear in classical music. For example, I tend to pick up on individuality in performers and conductors at least as much, perhaps more, than I pick up on compositions. At the same time, I'm finding that my classical listening - even as limited as it's been -has affected my other listening. I find that I listen more attentively to all music since I began listening to classical music.

Come back to me in five or ten years - if I'm still around - and I may have something substantial to offer. smile.gif

Paul, since it's been more than 5 years since you original post. What are your thoughts now?

Edited by Tom 1960
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1. Did you grow up in a household with classical music around you?

Yes, my mother played piano and my parents had a couple of vinyl records, but her choice in classical music (Mozart) did not end up being mine. When I eventually started buying classical music CDs it was mostly string quartets/quintets, cello suites, etc. Coincidentally, I generally don't like string instruments in a jazz context.

2. Did you learn an instrument and experience classical music that way?

No.

3. How does classical music relate to your love of jazz? A secondary interest, a primary interest (with jazz in second place) or part of the seamless web of music?

I was also exposed to jazz at a young age through my uncle's vinyl collection (Ben Webster). I did connect emotionally to Ben Webster's playing, whereas my mother's piano playing didn't do much for me.

Classical music is definitely a secondary interest. I have trouble connecting emotionally to a lot of types of classical music, and am very sensitive to finding a performance that appeals to me. I think I especially like string instrument performances that are sometimes seen as rather technical and clinical, perhaps.

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This is interesting:

REPRODUCING CLASS? CLASSICAL MUSIC EDUCATION AND INEQUALITY

If you are inside the system everything looks classless. An outreach programme here, a family concert there and everything is hunky dory.

It's interesting that one possible solution offered at the end of the article linked above is to change the music to fit the needs of the student, if I understand him correctly:

In order to shift these ongoing inequalities, I would suggest that we need to change the musical practice itself by letting the music evolve and change more. While some music conservatoires are still following the same formula they did a hundred years ago, others are changing their practices by getting students to play with musicians from other genres, improvise, and learn how to use music technology.

... presumably because these sorts of practices would be more readily embraced by students outside the middle class.

But what would they be learning? Something cross-genre with more improvisation and possibly a light show or sound effects. Probably interesting but probably not classical music.

The very success of the program in Venezuela for disadvantaged children argues against this, doesn't it?

Edited by papsrus
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I've been a fan of classical music since around 2000. It's been a musical evolution of sorts for me over the course of the years to want to explore other forms of music. I started out in my youth with rock, then blues, jazz, then classical. Unfortunately it's tough for me to set time aside to listen to classical music as I would like. Especially with a very busy schedule these days. I kind of feel I need to set time aside to give the proper attention to appreciate the music. In another life I feel I would come back as a huge classical music lover. I'm not certain if that's going to happen in this lifetime? At least I enjoy what I have and feel enriched by being able to appreciate some great music. Not many people can say that.

Edited by Tom 1960
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Depending where one lives and travels too, some of the best-- and best deals-- in chamber music can heard in college/university music schools, usually, if not always for FREE. I can't remember where I saw it-- American Organist magazine maybe?-- but I've even seen ads about retiring to Oberlin and/or Bloomington because of the music schools' concert programs. (Ghost of Miles in Bloomington too.)

Moms, I can definitely relate to your point here. One of the great features about living in Rochester, New York for many years was the opportunity to avail myself of the countless concerts, most free, at the Eastman School Of Music.

When I retired to Arizona to avoid the tough winters I was sorry to leave the Eastman School behind.

Though the classical music scene here in Tucson is not bad.

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Classical music was a lot more available when I was a kid in the 1940s and '50s. In our South Bend home we listened to the Chicago-NBC morning radio program that played 78 rpm classical pieces and operetta songs; in slightly later years the Chicago-CBS station played classical music after 11 pm; there were NBC symphony and John Charles Thomas and other classical and near-classical broadcasts. We played Holst and Wagner and Mozart, etc., pieces in school band and orchestra; the downtown department store displayed classical music (and pop and even some jazz) in its 45 and 10"-33-1/3 rpm record department - this was the pre-rock & roll era. Attended South Bend Symphony concerts. Mom was intolerant of any but classical and semiclassical musics whereas Dad had a great memory for pop songs, which is where I got the habit of singing. All long gone. Now they play guitars in churches where we used to hear organs and teach how to arrange pop music on synthesizers in schools where they even have music education.

So classical music was probably what I heard most early in life. Probably like a lot of culturally deprived white kids, I got to jazz and blues later in life, in my teens. I discovered Bartok, Stravinsky, Ornette, Prez all about the same time: lots of listening again and again, what's this? what's this?

The decline in classical-music audience population has been a bonus for us senior citizens. Every Chicago Symphony concert at 5 pm they sell tickets for that evening's concert at a discount, $25. Since I discovered this last year I've had main-floor seats a couple of times. I've been to jazz events 3-4 times a month plus festivals in the same time period.

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uble connecting emotionally to a lot of types of classical music, and am very sensitive to finding a performance that appeals to me. I think I especially like string instrument performances that are sometimes seen as rather technical and clinical, perhaps.

Erwin, one of the ways that I first connected emotionally to stringed instruments in classical music was through Beethoven's String Quartet works, especially the late works which seem to combine both writing that is technically difficult (I imagine, I don't play those type of instruments at all) and appeared to me very emotional. My father on the other hand likes the earliest and doesn't know what to make of the later ones, and he's not a very emotional person or listener.

I first related to piano music in classical music, having spent time with pianos and loving the piano in other genres.

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uble connecting emotionally to a lot of types of classical music, and am very sensitive to finding a performance that appeals to me. I think I especially like string instrument performances that are sometimes seen as rather technical and clinical, perhaps.

Erwin, one of the ways that I first connected emotionally to stringed instruments in classical music was through Beethoven's String Quartet works, especially the late works which seem to combine both writing that is technically difficult (I imagine, I don't play those type of instruments at all) and appeared to me very emotional. My father on the other hand likes the earliest and doesn't know what to make of the later ones, and he's not a very emotional person or listener.

I first related to piano music in classical music, having spent time with pianos and loving the piano in other genres.

I like the Beethoven late quartets. My preferred performances are the Emerson cycle on DG. I first heard them, also on DG, by the Amadeus Quartet and found those renditions very off-putting.

The first string performance that caught my attention was Schubert, Quintet in C major.

link

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I did not grow up in a house in which classical music was played. I took an elective course in college at the University of Wisconsin, a Music Appreciation 101 class, called "The Symphony", because I was curious. It helped that it was known as an easy A. About 300 students took the class, which was held in a huge lecture hall. The professor was very enthusiastic and engaging.

You had to be able to identify the composers and works from hearing brief excerpts, for the final exam. So I played the box set that came with the class in my dorm room. It was Daniel Politoske's "Music" set. My roommate, an agriculture major who liked only country music (this was in 1976), was not happy when I played the symphonies in our room. He was actually quite hostile about it.

I was very drawn to the Stravinsky works played in class: Rite of Spring, Firebird, Petrushka. I also liked the Beethoven symphonies.

Soon after that, I was in a used record store in Madison, Wisconsin, called Rave Up, and a middle age man in a suit and tie was standing next to the classical music section. I walked up to this stranger and asked if he thought that a used box set, of Solti and the Chicago Symphony playing all of the Beethoven symphonies, would be a good buy. He said yes. I really enjoyed listening to the Beethoven symphonies, even if those are not "the best" versions available.

I had that Solti and the Chicago Symphony box set from 1976 until 1993. The box opened up and the information on the spine was printed on a thin piece of paper glued on, from the spine to the front cover. That spine label got torn, in an irregular way. It was the CD era, so I gave the box set to Goodwill in 1993.

In 2010, I walked into a used book store in Kansas City, Prospero's, and my box set of Solti and the Chicago Symphony playing the Beethoven symphonies was there on display, as a New Stock item. It had the distinctive tear in the spine label. It was my set, which I had donated about 17 years before. So I bought it back and still have it.

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I did not grow up in a house in which classical music was played. I took an elective course in college at the University of Wisconsin, a Music Appreciation 101 class, called "The Symphony", because I was curious. It helped that it was known as an easy A. About 300 students took the class, which was held in a huge lecture hall. The professor was very enthusiastic and engaging.

You had to be able to identify the composers and works from hearing brief excerpts, for the final exam. So I played the box set that came with the class in my dorm room. It was Daniel Politoske's "Music" set. My roommate, an agriculture major who liked only country music (this was in 1976), was not happy when I played the symphonies in our room. He was actually quite hostile about it.

I was very drawn to the Stravinsky works played in class: Rite of Spring, Firebird, Petrushka. I also liked the Beethoven symphonies.

Soon after that, I was in a used record store in Madison, Wisconsin, called Rave Up, and a middle age man in a suit and tie was standing next to the classical music section. I walked up to this stranger and asked if he thought that a used box set, of Solti and the Chicago Symphony playing all of the Beethoven symphonies, would be a good buy. He said yes. I really enjoyed listening to the Beethoven symphonies, even if those are not "the best" versions available.

I had that Solti and the Chicago Symphony box set from 1976 until 1993. The box opened up and the information on the spine was printed on a thin piece of paper glued on, from the spine to the front cover. That spine label got torn, in an irregular way. It was the CD era, so I gave the box set to Goodwill in 1993.

In 2010, I walked into a used book store in Kansas City, Prospero's, and my box set of Solti and the Chicago Symphony playing the Beethoven symphonies was there on display, as a New Stock item. It had the distinctive tear in the spine label. It was my set, which I had donated about 17 years before. So I bought it back and still have it.

Great story!

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I like the Beethoven late quartets. My preferred performances are the Emerson cycle on DG. I first heard them, also on DG, by the Amadeus Quartet and found those renditions very off-putting.

The first string performance that caught my attention was Schubert, Quintet in C major.

link

I like the Emerson. I think the ones I go to most often are the Vegh Quartet.

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I had no real exposure to classical music for more than 63 years. Began listening seriously about four months ago with much appreciated help from a friend. I'm just beginning to find my way - only about 30-40 recordings in my collection. I know that my previous listening - jazz, blues, country, ethnic, pop, whatever - has affected the way I listen to classical music and what I hear in classical music. For example, I tend to pick up on individuality in performers and conductors at least as much, perhaps more, than I pick up on compositions. At the same time, I'm finding that my classical listening - even as limited as it's been -has affected my other listening. I find that I listen more attentively to all music since I began listening to classical music.

Come back to me in five or ten years - if I'm still around - and I may have something substantial to offer. smile.gif

Paul, since it's been more than 5 years since you original post. What are your thoughts now?

I doubt that my comments are of much relevance. My classical listening is very limited, compared to the listening posts of many others here. I've come to realize that my classical listening will never rival my listening in other genres, so I'm just trying to discover more of the music that moves me. I hope that never ends until I do.

I do find that I tend to enjoy chamber and small group music more than symphonies and other large group music (with some exceptions). In connection with that, I should mention that Chuck introduced me to Jascha Horenstein, who has become a favorite, partly because he was able to bring a sense of intimacy to his conducting of large group compositions.

One other quirk in my classical listening. I have a fair number of recordings of Charles Ives works. I'm not sure why I feel such a strong connection with Ives' music. Perhaps it's because I've spent most of my life less than 45 minutes away from the Danbury area, where he spent much of his life.

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