EKE BBB Posted November 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 You keep me salivating, brownie. This will be the following book to read when I finish the Monk bio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I'm sure you won't be disappointed. An essential book for fans like us! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I'll take YOUR word for it anytime. But did you really have to make it THAT hard for me to decide whether I can bring myself to having this put aside for Xmas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 The book has been several years in the making, I'ld say you can wait several weeks to open it. You'll enjoy it even more by then... Merry Christmas Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Indeed! Chris, trust you are stompin' off and getting this book. It's right down your alley... You bet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Received today the CDR with the 189 tracks recorded by Ladnier. Just a bit of warning, this may be difficult to play except on a late-generation CD player. It should play on the computer... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bakeostrin Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Got the book. It is superb. A very professional and seriously documented job with numerous little known or unknown photos and documents. Will really plunge into it later but must say it is one the items I mentioned in this thread several years ago. The CDrs are not ready yet (a matter of a few days). Brownie can you please, or anyone else who has obtained a copy, describe the book's binding? Is it a hardcover or a softcover? If it is hardcover, is it cloth bound (cloth covered) or paper/cardboard? Does it have a dust jacket or are boards of the book illustrated? Thanks in advance, Baker Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Baker, the book is a softcover but a very sturdy softcover. You will not have any problem with the binding unless you give it an undeserved very, very rough treatment. As I mentioned earlier, this is a very professional job. The book author-publisher is a typograph by trade and it shows! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 My question is - does it read like a book or just a collection of research? Is it interpretive or just a collection of facts? not trying to be difficult - it's just that very few books that I read of this types are actually books but are really more like collected footnotes. If it is more like that, it should be called a source book; I ask because I am still considering buying it, but am hesitant from past experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 (edited) My question is - does it read like a book or just a collection of research? Is it interpretive or just a collection of facts? not trying to be difficult - it's just that very few books that I read of this types are actually books but are really more like collected footnotes. If it is more like that, it should be called a source book; I ask because I am still considering buying it, but am hesitant from past experience. Possibly a valid point. Depends on one's personal angle. But if I want to read everything about the TIMES and LIFE of a musician then obviously I will be quite content with what you call a "source book", provided the narrative works everything into one all-encompassing story that comnbines individual facts and research results in one overall picture (making the overall total more than the sum of the individual elements). Am not quite sure where large-scale "interpretation" would come in (i.e. where it would HAVE TO come in in each case). BTW, if you are after interpretation of matters historical, why not go and get yourself a copy of "Come In And Hear The Truth - Jazz And Race On 52nd Street" by Patrick Bourke and choke on the word "race" being elaborated on in every other sentence. :D A HIGHLY interpretative opus, that's for sure! (and one that's HEAVY on footnotes) Not that I'd say this is a bad book (the subject is interesting) but I had to put it aside for the time being after having reached the beginning of Chapter 2 because it really is a chunk to digest. It's a very small line to losing the broader view because of all the interpretations going on. Edited November 7, 2009 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 Received today the CDR with the 189 tracks recorded by Ladnier. Just a bit of warning, this may be difficult to play except on a late-generation CD player. It should play on the computer... The tracks are MP3s, are they not? As such, the disc isn't really intended to be played on a CD player at all, is it? It's just that some CD players do have the decoding device added, I think. I have a cheap portable CD player that will play MP3s, and an expensive component one that won't. Given the age of the Ladnier recordings, they should be well-enough served by MP3 qualilty. (I still sit and wait delivery...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 7, 2009 Report Share Posted November 7, 2009 well, there's interpretation and interpretation - what would make a book worthwhile to me would be to have a sharply critical attitude behind it - meaning that the writer is not only capable of gathering facts but of determining how to evaluate the data - how it fits into questions both historical and artistic. Which is why I tend to shy away from books like these, which I would probably read once and put away for possible technical reference, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 BBS replied very neatly to AllenLowe's question. I like my jazz books factual more than interpretative (with rare exceptions) and the Ladnier opus suits me fine! Received today the CDR with the 189 tracks recorded by Ladnier. Just a bit of warning, this may be difficult to play except on a late-generation CD player. It should play on the computer... The tracks are MP3s, are they not? As such, the disc isn't really intended to be played on a CD player at all, is it? It's just that some CD players do have the decoding device added, I think. I have a cheap portable CD player that will play MP3s, and an expensive component one that won't. Given the age of the Ladnier recordings, they should be well-enough served by MP3 qualilty. (I still sit and wait delivery...) The CDR plays fine on my computer which was the only device that accepted to digest it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 " I like my jazz books factual more than interpretative" well, that's fine, but not really a description of a book - not trying to start a fight here, we can obviously all live with our own decisions - but basically when I read a book like that it's more like reading the research - interpretation is essential. Otherwise it's like listening to jazz records where they just keep playing the sheet music melody over and over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Christiern Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 Why not read rather than conjecture? Negativity is a drag, particularly so when based upon presumption. Did the Monk book not allay your premature anxieties? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) " I like my jazz books factual more than interpretative" well, that's fine, but not really a description of a book - not trying to start a fight here, we can obviously all live with our own decisions - but basically when I read a book like that it's more like reading the research - interpretation is essential. Otherwise it's like listening to jazz records where they just keep playing the sheet music melody over and over. Sorry but I beg to agree to disagree here. I'd rather arrive at my own conclusions and do not necessarily need a scholar to foist them unto me as the final truth. Particularly so since the way you compare lack of interpretation in a book with "straight" playing of sheet music makes you sound like it is perfectly OK to arrive at ANY kind of result of the interpretation of history, no matter how erroneous it is, because interpretation is an end in itself. After all books like the Ladnier one by necessity are first and above all presentations of history and a GOOD book on historical matters collates and exposes the facts into a coherent complete picture that still leaves room for the reader to do a fair bit of judgment on his own if he feels like it. And if books on historical matters succeed e.g. in highlighting the subject's position, role and importance in the context of his times then this is interpretation enough for me. (This is what I meant above by combining the facts and research results into a complete picture that is more than the sum of its individual components) Or, to name just one example, should I really take grossly skewed interpretational results like the role of Coleman Hawkins in the development of bebop blown all out of proportion in Scott DeVeaux' Birth of BeBop book at face value just because this is the valued interpretational part of the book? This is one case where interpretational zeal backfires in a BIG way. And STILL it its a fine and readable book for the HISTORICAL FACTS it portrays. Edited November 8, 2009 by Big Beat Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 (edited) Chris - I'd love to read the Ladnier book, but since it's not a Border's thing that's returnable, for me the risk is too great, financially. True, I was quite pleasantly surprised by the Monk book, but the chances of lightning striking twice in this way are....slim. I'm sure the Ladnier book is well-researched and nicely produced. I just have too many books that sit on the shelf as great collections of detail that remain collections of detail. If the book were more reasonably priced I would jump on it. To me, it's a little beyond reach. and I basically agree with Steve - interpretation by itself is not necessarily a good thing. It requires certain levels of judgment and discernment. Obviously I was not discarding that requirement - it's the difference between, say, Leslie Gourse and Chris Albertson. but to just accept the facts because it's safer is not acceptable to me - because they don't mean anything without a guiding intellect to organize and interpret - and it's possible the Ladnier book fits this criterion - but I won't find out, at that price. and it's interesting because I JUST returned a book, call The King Of Queen City (about King Records) because of that very reason - the writer did his research but had no personal sense of how to evaluate it or integrate it intellectually. So it's like a grocery list rather than a book. Edited November 8, 2009 by AllenLowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Beat Steve Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 and it's interesting because I JUST returned a book, call The King Of Queen City (about King Records) because of that very reason - the writer did his research but had no personal sense of how to evaluate it or integrate it intellectually. So it's like a grocery list rather than a book. Thanks for that comment. This one has been on my shopping list at Amazon for some time but for some reason (some mention somewhere on the web?) I had been a bit wary. I am not quite sure what kind of interpretation (or evaluation if that is what you mean) you'd want from a book like this but I do wonder if the info in the book is deep enough and goes far enough beyond other commonly accessible sources that "also" deal with King to warrant the purchase. For the time being and for the pictorial part of that subject I got myself "King Records of Cincinnati" by Randy McNutt in the "Images of America" book series and that one is nice for its rather affordable price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted O'Reilly Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 and it's interesting because I JUST returned a book, call The King Of Queen City (about King Records) because of that very reason - the writer did his research but had no personal sense of how to evaluate it or integrate it intellectually. So it's like a grocery list rather than a book. Umm, did you buy it, read it, then return it because you didn't like it? You have a very understanding bookstore -- I hope they can re-sell it as a demonstrator, as a car dealer might. And here's a thought: ask your local library, or music faculty or such to buy the Ladnier book, then borrow from them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 8, 2009 Report Share Posted November 8, 2009 what I always do is carefully remove the cover and handle the book carefully and keep the receipt - in this case the booked still looked mint. The problem with it was it was just basically a list of who did what, when, and "this guy was really good" type prose. Nothing I was unaware of before reading the book, very little insight (though some interesting info on Sid Nathan; that was about all). Just not enough depth to make it worth the money. No new insight into the music or the musicians. A big disappointment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EKE BBB Posted November 9, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2009 Never thought a Tommy Ladnier bio would be so much discussed in this board... even before it's been read! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Kart Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I have removed from this thread the argument (or back and forth) between Ted O'Reilly and Allen Lowe. Please do not continue it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 A very wise decision A thread about Tommy Ladnier deserved better than that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.A.W. Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 I have removed from this thread the argument (or back and forth) between Ted O'Reilly and Allen Lowe. Please do not continue it. Thanks Larry. As Brownie said, a very wise decision. We don't need stuff like that on the open forum. Back to the Ladnier book Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllenLowe Posted November 10, 2009 Report Share Posted November 10, 2009 good idea. Has anyone actually read the Ladnier book yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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