Traveling Blues: The Life And Music of Tommy Ladnier

[trumpetman]

Indeed!

Chris, trust you are stompin' off and getting this book. It's right down your alley...

You bet!

Hello Boys, I just found out you had a long (too long) discussion about Traveling blues, Bo Lindström's book (and I).

To inform you: this is a several decades research, bringing out all the facts and recordings that could be found about Ladnier.

It would be impossible to count the thousands of hours that Bo spent on this research. I can say that I too spend thousands of hours on this work.

After we decided to work out this project, it took us 7 years to bring the text together and one year of graphic work.

We invested our own money (lot of money) in a non-profit association. This money represents only the cost of the printing and engraving.

I did the layout without counting my time. We did not count the photos we purchased. We did not count the proof reading that an american friend did, graciously.

According to my friends who work in the publishing trade, this book should amount to at least 60 euros.

The CD contains now 191 tunes, the equivalent of 8 CDs for 15 euros. On this CD there are 9 euros of rights for the Sacem!!! So you get 8 CDs for 5 euros: who can do best? This is merely a gift that Bo and I are offering only for jazz nuts. We should sell this CD at least double.

So now you see that this is a ridiculous price: 40 euros for one of the most beautiful books in the field of classic jazz (that's what most of our readers say).

Now about the postage: I buy books every month on the net. I just bought a postcard: 5.94 dollars to send it to France, more than the price of the card!!! The postage is often more expensive than the books that I purchase on ebay or amazon.

There is also the carboard box to protect the book. And the Paypal 4% charge.

Now friends, just shake all these elements in your head and the conclusion will come out: this is (too) cheap.

Now why does it look expensive to US buyers, as we do not have this discussion in Europe?

Very simple: the US government keeps the dollar very low to boost the exportations and resist a very very low chinese currency.

This policy is good for exportation but it turns the countrary when you come to import something from Europe or if you want to travel to Europe.

This would be a long discussion. Europe is in a bad situation as most of its industries are now going abroad (Eastern, China, even US) as the euro currency is too high.

Every time a european customer buys something from low currency countries... he puts one man out of work.

This si the reason why I insisted to have the book printed in France. Of course we could have gone to China and diminish the price of the printing by 30%.

Well, but if everybody in the world thinks like this we are going nowhere... or better say that we are going to an international social mess.

Let's go back to our book. The book weighs 1,5 kilo and the post office do not want to allow us to send it as a book, which would be cheaper.

Imagine: to send it as a book, they want us to have a transparent protection box!!!!

Now guys you have all the elements about this book. This is a book that every jazz lover should read because it is a reference book, whith the difference that it is presented in a very different way than the usual academic works (which I respect very much for their contents). In french we say that it is a "beautiful book", meaning that it is unusual.

You have excerpts to be seen on the site www.jazzedit.org and you can email us any time through the site. You can also read there the reports of some of the buyers.

I wish you all a Happy New Year, keep swinging, Dan Vernhettes

PS. My friend Manfred Selchow published some years ago the iography of Edmond Hall. The 500 copies are sold out, I could not even find one for myself... and you can buy a few copies on ebay now at the cost of 300 euros, that is 450 dollars! So hurry up boys!!!

[Big Beat Steve]

You are 100% correct, Dan, especially with the bit about whining about the oh so high shipping cost. Shippping the other way often really is a ripoff and U.S. sellers evidently have little qualms about taking advantage of overseas buyers (I could name a case of a (special-iterest) book recently released where the editor unashamedly takes $25 for shpping one book to Europe and $50 for shipping two although combining both in one parcel should (and by all accounts does) net significant savings). Don't know what kind of intra-US selling he intends to subsidize that way. So ... the door swings both ways anytime.

I have had my book given to me as a Xmas present so have only worked myself through an initial part of the book. But looking at your cross-references, footnotes, all the genealogy thing (which you automatically find yourself immersed in as you go along, even if you probably never were into that before) clearly shows this as an extremely thoroughly researched labor of love that leaves no stone unturned.

As has been said on another (jazz-related) occasion, I doff my hat in sincere appreciation!

[AllenLowe]

sorry, it don't cut it (whine whine) - I worked 10 years on my jazz history - that's life. I did the whole thing - 36 CDs, 100,000 words of notes, all writing and restoration, by myself. Not a penny of outside assistance. We sold it for reasonable cost and shipping; the record company made its money back and more.

Otherwise people lose access, and ACCESS, to me, is the name of the game. It's the right thing to do. To limit the print run and FURTHER drive up costs is really a lousy idea, also. It is a boutique approach, snobby and anti-poor people. It also continues that commodity approach. That's just not the best way to do things. It just excludes too many of the real foot soldiers who support this music. Might as well get Montel Williams to sell it along with the Franklin Mint.

just my opinion (whine whine) -

Edited January 9, 2010 by AllenLowe

[Big Beat Steve]

What point is there printing a LOT more if this means you will very likely end up with lots and lots of unsold stock that - at best - in the end finds its way into the cut-price books sales bins and therefore leaves you with a sure-fire loss if you eventually have to sell them at clearout prices well below cost? The market for such books IS limited (especially when figuring in that there probably are smart alecks around even in THIS hobby who figure they will hold off until the books just crop up there - i.e. in those cut-price bins. If I were a publisher I'd have second thoughts about such a policy too).

Anyway I look at it - after having had a very close look at this book I can't find that price of 40 or 45 euros (or whatever it was exactly minus shipping) to be all that expensive - not giving the contents, the presentation, the printing quality, in short, everything. On a side note, it has to be taken into account that overall book prices have always tended to be somewhat higher in France than elsewhere in Western Europe anyway (on the other hand, this means publishers there will be willing to take chances in special-interest subject matters that hardly any publisher in my country, for example, would touch with a 10-foot pole, least of all in such a lavish presentation). I would not have been too surprised seeing this book in a French bookstore for the equivalent, i.e. some 280 or 300 Francs, in the late 90s. So buying power-wise, prices have actually come down a little.,

And whatever there is to be paid on top of the actual book price is just something that no publisher can be held accountable for. Blame it on the post office terms ... and like I said, U.S. publishers and booksellers have been known to be far more unscrupulous in THEIR terms when it comes to shipping overseas.

Besides, I really don't get it about that "access" thing. Sure access to (cultural) information is important and I'd really appreciate seeing a lot of items being far more affordable too. Yet seeing how each and almost everybody seems to be drooling about this, that and yet another MOSAIC and shelling out big bucks for THAT and going to GREATEST efforts in trying to "upgrade" (for often minimal or debatable sound improvement) in this or that reissue money cannot really be a priority issue even with many of those who at other times state how they have been living on a budget. A question of one's priorities, I guess. But that's life ... And not something to put off old-time jazz fans who might be in the market for this Tommy Ladnier bio. Others will much rather invest in the umpteenth Trane book but you can't have 'em all, least of all at pulp paperback prices.

BTW, how come nobody seems to be complaining about the price of Japanese platters (AND books) that find their way out of Asia? those who insist on cutting down on the general price level, will find a well-crowded field of action there.

And just for a US-Europe comparison - not all that long ago I got myself a copy of the "Charlie Parker & Jazz Club Memorabilia" book published by the Jazz at Lincoln Center library (thanks again, Baker, for your assistance!) and this set me back a whopping 75 bucks PLUS shipping! Calculate that for yourselves and see how that figures in comparison with the Euro amount of the above Tommy Ladnier book. While I do enjoy the book and marvel at the number of collectabilia shown there in full color, one thing has to be said quite clearly: With a book like this printing quality is the A to Z of the entire book, and there this one is a letdown in quite a few instances. Blotchy colors that make the originally sharp-contoured lettering look blurred, lack of contrast, insufficient resolution that makes it difficult to appreciate the finer details of the objects at that printing size (the plight of DIGITAL preprinting stages, I wonder??) etc. etc. In short, quite a few of the illustrations really suffer from ... well, I'd almost call it substandard printing. Or - another pet peeve of mine - take the abominably lousy B/W photo printing quality in Bob Inman's "Swing Era Scrapbook" published by Scarecrow Press (not cheap either, easily on a level with that Tommy Ladnier book)! In short, U.S. publishers have not showered themselves with unlimited merits in the printing quality alone in these two cases yet have not refrained from making people shell out heavily too. That much just to put things into perspective ... (as I do not figure these are isolated cases at the top end of what U.S. music books sell for).

Whereas the Tommy Ladnier book - quite apart from the written contents that make the diligence of research obvious - really shows how things ought to be done when it comes to the reproduction quality of B/W, sepia and full-color illustrations in a book. So I would be more than willing to pay a bit more if they really got their act together in that department (and compared to the two above-cited books I did not even have to pay extra ... so I really am quite satisfied.

In short, of course it would be nice to bring down the costs of a lot of productions but in the end it is a matter of one's personal priorities and nobody will ever be able to afford everything, and once you've reached a certain level things just are going to cost if done properly. And when compared to the two cases mentioned above (no doubt both cross-subsidized by well-established institutions, i.e. Lincoln and Rutgers, respectively), this apparently privately published book does not fare bad at all. In fact, it fares exceedingly well IMHO.

Just my 2c

Edited January 9, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[AllenLowe]

what unsold stock? he says that the small presses are selling out their 500 copy runs - so why not print a thousand at a lower price, they'll obviously sell as well.

[Big Beat Steve]

... so why not print a thousand at a lower price, they'll obviously sell as well.

Why not double the pressing run of all the MOSAIC's and lower the price, they'll obviously sell as well.

(And thus make culture much more accessible as well )

Ya see, if this is what your reasoning is, then you will have anwf'l lot of fields of action ahead of you.

(Besides, the only mention of selling out a printing run of 500 I can see in the earlier post relates to the bio of Edmond Hall, so something entirely different altogether ... )

Edited January 10, 2010 by Big Beat Steve

[trumpetman]

Hello, Let me tell you a story. Manfred Selchow published a wonderful bio of Edmond Hall ten years ago. The 500 copies sold well and now the very few copies on sale on internet amout 450 dollars! I cannot even buy it for myself! He then printed 1000 copies of his Vic Dickenson bio. And now he has several hundred copies left.

When you plan to publish something as edgy you have to be very careful, because it is your money and you want to get it back someday... to make another book!

The "market" for such books is about 500 for the whole world. Imagine we sold 1 in Brazil, 3 in Spain, nothing in Italy, nothing in Asia, mostly Europe... some in Toronto and the US, not as many as should be (Europe is still the memory of jazz, as it started there).

This is why no publisher will take a chance. A european publisher will not publish a book in english of course not. An english publisher will certainly publish the twentieth book on MIles, Louis, or Duke, not Ladnier or Oliver.

Most of the books in this category are normally presented, in black and white, with very few images, and cost 35 dollars+shipping. Some of them are really bad in lay-out, printing, engraving.

Here is a first class work, one of the most beautiful books in this category.

Why not 1000 copies printed? Just think a minute: because WE did not have the money to invest!!!! 30.000 dollars, do you have it? If you do, please help me for the next book, you'll get a free copy!

So much about Tommy, he'd be glad the poor fellow. When you come to the end of the book, you'll see that I found his "grave" and that I designed a marker for him.

We payed him homage, as he influenced me very much in my trumpet playing and he deserved something great, first class, no monkey book. With the great swedish historian Bo Lindstrom we did it! And that's it. This work has no price. Passion has no price. The price is just to pay the printer, the paper, the boxes.

Now I'm working on the other jazz pioneers. An eventual next book will be faced with the same economical problem.

Any jazz lover can communicate directly with me at jazzedit@sfr.fr

Swingingly Yours, dan vernhettes

[AllenLowe]

"Passion has no price"

well, it does with my projects -

as for:

"Why not double the pressing run of all the MOSAIC's and lower the price"

I don't find the Mosaics to be way out of line in terms of market price (meaning the new ones, not those that are out of print) -

Edited January 12, 2010 by AllenLowe

[EKE BBB]

(..)The "market" for such books is about 500 for the whole world. Imagine we sold 1 in Brazil, 3 in Spain (...)

Hey, I happen to know the other two Spanish buyers!

Best regards,

Agustín Pérez

[brownie]

The people who brought out the fascinating 'Traveling Blues' three years ago have come up now with another book 'Jazz Puzzles, vol. 1' which looks splendid too... (details in english)

http://www.jazzedit....zz-puzzles.html

Timing is perfect with the Christmas season at our doorstep!

[EKE BBB]

The people who brought out the fascinating 'Traveling Blues' three years ago have come up now with another book 'Jazz Puzzles, vol. 1' which looks splendid too... (details in english)

http://www.jazzedit....zz-puzzles.html

Timing is perfect with the Christmas season at our doorstep!

I read the draft for the Freddie Keppard chapter a few years ago -and tried myself to help Dan with the Spanish origins of the Tio family- and they have kept up to their own quality standards (in terms of thorough research, graphic material and layout).

:tup

[Big Beat Steve]

The people who brought out the fascinating 'Traveling Blues' three years ago have come up now with another book 'Jazz Puzzles, vol. 1' which looks splendid too... (details in english)

http://www.jazzedit....zz-puzzles.html

Timing is perfect with the Christmas season at our doorstep!

See here:

[brownie]

The people who brought out the fascinating 'Traveling Blues' three years ago have come up now with another book 'Jazz Puzzles, vol. 1' which looks splendid too... (details in english)

http://www.jazzedit....zz-puzzles.html

Timing is perfect with the Christmas season at our doorstep!

See here:

Damn! missed that...

has anyone had a look at the book?

[AllenLowe]

and only $8500 plus shipping.

[Big Beat Steve]

Ah, him again ...

How about this ... get the publishers of those "Studies In Jazz" books to slash their prices in half and no doubt you will also find a handle on how to reduce the price of those lavishly self-published books that you seem to complain about here again.

Because ... like it or not, there is a full-fledged publisher behind those "Studies In Jazz" books (Scarecrow Press) and some shrewd recalculation could no doubt offset reduced prices of that series (many of them ARE expensive after all) by other lines from that publisher if they really WANTED to.

Do I hear you (or anybody else for that matter) say "Niche market ..."? "Special interest"? "Scholarly"? "No mainstream"?

Right! And offhand I'd agree that for these reasons the prices of that series of books are just what they are.

BUT - the same applies to the two books we are talking about here. Even more so, Because ANY SELF-PUBLISHED job as well done as these here deserves the highest respect and support imaginable. Self publishing is not the easiest way to go for sure and demands a lot. Whereas ... if you were to look closer elsewhere in the pricing policies of some ... ho hum ...

Anyway ... I have no doubt the calculation behind this book will never allow the authors-publishers to get rich.

Edited December 6, 2012 by Big Beat Steve

[Ted O'Reilly]

The new "Jazz Puzzles" volume by Vernhettes with Lindström arrived in the mail today.

At first glimpse it measures up in every way to the Ladnier book, and worth every penny, though some will think it's overpriced and the author-publishers will get rich. Uh-uh.

I've spent more than its' cost on a bottle of wine at a restaurant where the enjoyment was fleeting. This book is going to last. Value versus Price, and it's Valuable.

Congratulations to Dan and Bo...

[AllenLowe]

I know, FROM EXPERIENCE, that if you price niche things high, you lose money; put 'em cheap, and you make money. Plain and simple. I've done it more than once.

[brownie]

This is not about money...

there are easier ways to make (or lose) money!

have just ordered my copy of Jazz Puzzles!

Looks like it worth every centime.

[Big Beat Steve]

I know, FROM EXPERIENCE, that if you price niche things high, you lose money; put 'em cheap, and you make money. Plain and simple. I've done it more than once.

Tell the "Studies In Jazz" series publishers, not Vernhettes/Lindström.

As for making niche things "cheap" - be careful. Cutting costs/corners will show up eventually too. Very, very sorry to say this but you ought to know THAT from experience too. Just see the number of glaring errors in the booklets to the "Devilin Tunes" CD series.

Yes - this CD series IS great for its musical contents, but don't you think too that the booklets could have benefitted from somewhat more throrough proofreading etc.?

(Yes I know the quality of those sets is very, very much OK for your selling price and does offer good value for money but doesn't that prove my above point?)

And yes, I know this may not be P.C. to make such statements HERE and I am sorry if my reply appears like a rant about these complaints about pricing but it just is so that I really fail to see why you keep breathing down the neck of the self-publishing authors of the above books. There ARE MUCH more "meriting" targets in the US of A, i.e. a much closer point to START.

And in case you keep moaning about the cost of overseas shipping from Europe to the US, that door swings both ways too. Some time ago I ordered a "special interest" niche product book from the 'States where they charged a flat shipping rate of $25 for every book, even if you ordered several of them (which normally would cut on overall shipping costs per item by ANY postal fee scheme). Though I had a hunch an effort to put this in a Global Priority Flat Rate envelope or box could have cut costs, there was nothing doing. I took the plunge anyway. In the end the product was worth it. Same case again last year with another niche book from the same publishers. Relatively expensive shipping on top of the book price but that's the way life is. Take it or leave it.

In short, if you feel the book is worth the price (including shipping) - buy it. If you don't then don't. No use whining though. Nobody forces such books upon anybody at gunpoint.

Edited December 11, 2012 by Big Beat Steve