paul secor Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 It's quite an interesting world we're in and as collectors we're going to face interesting situations. We're not normal people with normal needs. When I'm in one of those situations, I try and step back to decide if something is a need or a want. Usually it's the latter, and I can let it go. Not always clearcut or easy though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 I hope these issue are legit and related to what's below. Back in February, I did an entry about Horo on my blog and got the following comment: I was assistant producer at HORO Records for several years, when I was in my teens. Aldo Sinesio, the producer, is on the verge of reissuing most of the HORO catalogue on CD, and I will produce the reissues. Lonehill Records has just ripped off a Teddy Wilson record from HORO, so, in order to avoid other "fakes" (the guys at Lonehill have just copied an LP), the catalogue wll be reissued almost in its entirety. Within May/June a series of recordings live by Freddie Hubbard, and an unissued recording, by pianist Dave Burrell and legendary drummer Sam Woodyard, will be out. I think you're the first person to get the news... Cordially yours, Gianni Morelenbaum Gualberto Of course, we're considerably beyond May/June at this point, but I hope this is the beginning of the reissue program Gianni was talking about. Again, we have to refer to this quote -- are they boots? Don't know yet. Maybe Sinesio's reissues are still in the works, and these are just the "fakes" to which he refers. Honestly, it's gonna be hard to have any sympathy for Sinesio if these do turn out to be boots. He's had 25 years to release these on CD and now we're long past the CD reissue boom. I'm also wondering how much more expensive it would be to release these "officially" and not as "boots." Lonehill has the same duplication costs that anyone else might have - and one assumes they're collecting their nut as well - so realistically how much would be due the artists if these were officially released? Additionally, if desired, these could be released officially as mp3s or flac files, further reducing any upfront costs and getting this music back in front of the public again. Otherwise, just give up to the pirates and/or traders - at least someone's making this stuff available again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 17, 2009 Report Share Posted November 17, 2009 Um. How much did Sinesio pay the artists in the first place? I'm not all that convinced that Horo was any "better" than Jean Georgakarakos' projects or some such. I don't care if a "bootleg-level" but "legitimate" label is getting "booted" to be honest. Sorry. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 Um. How much did Sinesio pay the artists in the first place? I'm not all that convinced that Horo was any "better" than Jean Georgakarakos' projects or some such. I don't care if a "bootleg-level" but "legitimate" label is getting "booted" to be honest. Sorry. Oh I agree. I just don't know enough about Horo, its owners, or its history to speculate about it. But even if the artists weren't paid beyond their session (or whatever the arrangement was), I don't have a problem with whoever owns the tapes profiting from them. Presumably Sinesio has the original tapes but has refused to do anything with them - which is his right of course. But if he doesn't exploit them, someone else will, legitimately or otherwise - and whether we like it or not. My point was, if Lonehill (or whomever) can obviously make money releasing these, then why can't the legal owner of the tapes (especially if he doesn't pay the original artists either)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B. Clugston Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 P.L.M made an interesting point about Horo in this thread: http://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=29098 "I've ask the question to some "specialists" about the complete vanishing of the HORO records. They explain me that SINESIO was a contractual RAI producers and the recording sessions was first intended to be broadcast on radio. Seems that actually, SINESIO don't own no RIGHT on this sessions anymore and legally can't produce CDs from them." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 18, 2009 Report Share Posted November 18, 2009 All I know is from talking to some artists, their experiences with that particular label weren't so positive. I can't speak to the publishing angle, you're right, so that is a good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 The Horo website indicates the Atomic reissues are genuine... Horo Records Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (edited) The Horo website indicates the Atomic reissues are genuine... Horo Records Seems like a weird way to release genuine product! The liner notes follow the pattern used in the liner notes accompanying all the bootleg cd's --- right down to lack of focus on the session at hand, and the credit to a writer obviously using a pen name (in the case of the Griffin and the Rivers, the writer is "Mike Nest"). The sound on these is actually pretty good, but it still seems that if Sinesio has partnered with the bootleggers, I guess it's just another case of "If you can't beat 'em, join 'em"!!! Edited November 19, 2009 by JETman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (this is not the horo webpage? but) the fact that the griffin album (which hasn't been mentioned here yet?) contains an unreleased track is indeed proof enough... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (this is not the horo webpage? but) the fact that the griffin album (which hasn't been mentioned here yet?) contains an unreleased track is indeed proof enough... How is this proof enough? The track you're referring to did not appear on that album, but it appeared on a Horo anthology album, which is also easily "needledroppable". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niko Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (this is not the horo webpage? but) the fact that the griffin album (which hasn't been mentioned here yet?) contains an unreleased track is indeed proof enough... How is this proof enough? The track you're referring to did not appear on that album, but it appeared on a Horo anthology album, which is also easily "needledroppable". ah, had misinterpreted "unreleased track" on the blog... then it is indeed not proof enough... does sinesio's name appear on the cds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 (this is not the horo webpage? but) the fact that the griffin album (which hasn't been mentioned here yet?) contains an unreleased track is indeed proof enough... How is this proof enough? The track you're referring to did not appear on that album, but it appeared on a Horo anthology album, which is also easily "needledroppable". ah, had misinterpreted "unreleased track" on the blog... then it is indeed not proof enough... does sinesio's name appear on the cds? No, and no copyright accreditation to Horo on the outside of the package either. As I said previously, these are boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sambrasa Posted November 19, 2009 Report Share Posted November 19, 2009 1.Original producer and designer are not mentioned 2.Photo's are credited to "Mr.X" ; Specifically the Sam Rivers photograph was lifted from wikipedia, where it is credited to Tom Marcello. 3.The Black Africa! liner notes contain this telling phrase (quoted from memory): "Exactly why Horo never reissued this remains a mystery..." Bootlegs or not? I'd say they are, But this does not mean I'm not glad Atomic released them. I would have been happy to buy the product directly from Horo, but truth is, they failed to release it in reasonable time, and now someone has beat them to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterintoronto Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 I don't like bootleg labels IF they are bootlegging readily available material. Lonehill and Gambit are prime examples of labels I do not and never will support. Plus, their packaging, sound quality are garish. Let's not even mention the high price they stick on those things! But I am first and foremost a music lover, and I sometimes buy CDs of dubious origin like Frank Wright's 'Church Number 9'. Why? Because I want to hear the music before I die, and because if and when the original LP shows up on eBay, it'll go for no less than $300. And even if I do go for the $300 LP on eBay, none of that will go to the artist anyway! These Horo releases fall under 'want to hear 'em before I die', and while it's sad that they may not be official, I will buy them and enjoy them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterintoronto Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 P.S. I have been a strict no meat/no fish vegetarian for about ten years now, so I think I should be able to buy these Horo discs guilt-free! It should balance out, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 (edited) That is not the official website. It contains links to 'illegal' downloads. I guess if we want to hear these before we die we should just grab what this guy has put up? Here's the offical site: http://www.hororecords.com/homepage.htm. Like I said, I wrote to the address (in Italian) and got no reply. Edited November 20, 2009 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoppy T. Frog Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Can the Horo albums be found on Dime or the "sharity" blogs? I found that Blogspot page that brownie linked to, that has a few of he Italian Jazz ones. I'm sure people are aware of how the Andorrans turn around and sell on CD things they rip from Dimeadozen. If these are needle drops, then I might as well get them free from the net--same as the Andorrans! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wood Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Dusty Groove has a "delay" on the shipment of the Horo discs. Jazzloft has them. I'm wondering if they discovered that these are coming from the same area as the Fresh Sounds, which they no longer distribute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JETman Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Dusty Groove has a "delay" on the shipment of the Horo discs. Jazzloft has them. I'm wondering if they discovered that these are coming from the same area as the Fresh Sounds, which they no longer distribute. Jordi Pujol is the Godfather of the bootleggers. Fresh Sounds releases used to look pretty crappy, sorta like RLR, Gambit and Lone Hill now. Not so ironically, Fresh Sounds has become the first one that actually looks professional. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stefan Wood Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Fresh Sounds also issues new material from their New Talent line. Some good stuff there, not boots at all. I agree with you overall re: Fresh Sounds boots. But where do they get the Cuban music from? The Chano Pozo, Tito Rodriguez and Arsenio Rodriguez box sets are outstanding in terms of research and sound quality. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clifford_thornton Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 This is just a mess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Yeah it's messed up, to put it no more strongly. Had all these under my hand at Ray's Jazz in Foyles's bookstore London today... and I walked away because of all these doubts. FFS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjzee Posted November 20, 2009 Report Share Posted November 20, 2009 Fresh Sounds also issues new material from their New Talent line. Some good stuff there, not boots at all. I agree with you overall re: Fresh Sounds boots. But where do they get the Cuban music from? The Chano Pozo, Tito Rodriguez and Arsenio Rodriguez box sets are outstanding in terms of research and sound quality. And didn't they put out a "Jazz In Hollywood" boxed set that was better than the Fantasy single discs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 (edited) http://hororecords.blogspot.com/ Recorded at “Titania’s Studio”, Rome on 1974, April 7 Clem's involved! Edited November 21, 2009 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted November 21, 2009 Report Share Posted November 21, 2009 Fresh Sounds also issues new material from their New Talent line. Some good stuff there, not boots at all. I agree with you overall re: Fresh Sounds boots. But where do they get the Cuban music from? The Chano Pozo, Tito Rodriguez and Arsenio Rodriguez box sets are outstanding in terms of research and sound quality. And didn't they put out a "Jazz In Hollywood" boxed set that was better than the Fantasy single discs? Yes, more material than Fantasy released I believe. They claimed involvement from the original producers/record label onwers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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