iTunes recognition capability

[RD44]

I have been copying some of my vinyl lps onto a cd hard disk recorder,then copying from the recorder to an audio cd-rw. In 4 out of 5 cases when I imported the cds into iTunes the data was recognised and the artist,album and track titles inserted automatically. How is this possible? As far as I can see the only information available is the number of tracks and track times. Any enlightenment would be appreciated. Many thanks

[A Lark Ascending]

I have been copying some of my vinyl lps onto a cd hard disk recorder,then copying from the recorder to an audio cd-rw. In 4 out of 5 cases when I imported the cds into iTunes the data was recognised and the artist,album and track titles inserted automatically. How is this possible? As far as I can see the only information available is the number of tracks and track times. Any enlightenment would be appreciated. Many thanks

No idea how it works but I've had the same experience. I did an old Nic Jones album that has never been on CD last week. Spotted it straight away.

I think, as you say, it must just recognise the number of tracks + the timings (though this must be approximate).

[Noj]

Oddly enough, in one instance I digitized an LP, burned it to CD, then inserted the CD at a later date and the information populated incorrectly. This supports Bev's notion that CDDB (Compact Disc Data Base) does so by number of tracks + approximate timings. I don't recall which albums were involved.

[AmirBagachelles]

I don't have your answer but I don't believe the success depends on track count and timings. Everybody with an iPhone has been amazed and willing to demonstrate the phone's ability to "listen" to the radio or background noise and correctly identify music. It sure makes MS Media Player's inability, for example, to identify disc one of Mosaic's Buddy DeFranco set PRETTY PATHETIC.

[John L]

CDDB indeed recognizes by track number and times. They must use an interval of a few seconds around the time for for each track. In fact, different pressings or releases of the same CD may also vary in that way.

It is interesting that, for CDs with at least 3 tracks, the probability of 2 different records corresponding exactly with respect to tracks and times becomes very small. On the other hand, for one track CDs, CDDB comes up with the wrong information quite often. For two tracks, it is also rather common.

[AmirBagachelles]

In some instance here we are talking about vinyl>CD transcriptions, where you have to cut the digital file into tracks manually. Two people are most unlikely to come up with an identical timing for any given track incl. before/after silence, thus there is probably no reference i.d. for most of our DIY LP digitizations. I will try a few with some of my "old" transcriptions from the 1990s. Cheers

[MartyJazz]

Interesting to see this thread because I just got an iPod and experienced the same situation when transferring a CD-R made from an LP. In my case iTunes recognized the George Coleman Octet recording, BIG GEORGE, track for track. I was amazed. However, in the second case, a CD-R made from an obscure LP of the George Wallington Quintet performing alternate takes of tunes originally released on the "Live at the Cafe Bohemia" date, iTunes did not recognize anything. I find it hard to believe that iTunes recognizes tracks by a combination of the number of tracks plus their individual timings, but I can't come up with another explanation, so.....

[mjzee]

It's not iTunes. It's the CDDB (Internet Music Database). And yes, there are enough discrete combinations of # of tracks and length of each track that albums can be detected with remarkable accuracy.

Here is the Wikipedia entry on the CDDB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDDB. See especially the section "How CDDB works."

It doesn't work 100% of the time - iTunes will occasionally ask you to choose from 2 alternatives. There are also some albums not yet in CDDB - that may be the case with your George Wallington record. In those cases, you can actually contribute the data to CDDB - in iTunes, it can be found under Advanced/Submit CD Track Names.

[A Lark Ascending]

I CD-R'd a Stan Tracey/John Surman album from the late 70s last night. When I came to transferring to iTunes there was no recognition.

As it probably only had limited distribution (it was on Stan's own 'Steam' label)it's probably not on the database.

Though all bar one track was put together with the Tracey/Tippett TNT for CD release (by Blue Note, I think, during Stan's brief period there). That would probably show up.

[Indestructible!]

Yup, makes perfect sense - especially mathematically -

that it's a combo of track number, number of tracks and length.

You'll get weird surprises sometimes: especially discs with only one track.

You may get a listing of some techno remix when you put in, for example,

a CD with a long single Braxton work.

Yeah, I've noticed that the fewer the tracks, the less accurate the system is. Just today I loaded Mal Waldron's "Crowd Scene" (two tracks) and CDDB popped up some dubstep album instead.

Still, the system is pretty incredible... I'd say the hit rate for what I load is at least 90% (probably higher).

[MartyJazz]

It's not iTunes. It's the CDDB (Internet Music Database). And yes, there are enough discrete combinations of # of tracks and length of each track that albums can be detected with remarkable accuracy.

Here is the Wikipedia entry on the CDDB: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDDB. See especially the section "How CDDB works."

It doesn't work 100% of the time - iTunes will occasionally ask you to choose from 2 alternatives. There are also some albums not yet in CDDB - that may be the case with your George Wallington record. In those cases, you can actually contribute the data to CDDB - in iTunes, it can be found under Advanced/Submit CD Track Names.

Checked out your suggestion but there is a problem in that key info is not requested. The form that pops up does not allow for track titles nor album label. Since the Wallington LP I previously mentioned, "At the Cafe Bohemia", (Progressive PRO-7001) contains alternate takes, in a different order, of the master tracks more commonly available on the similarly titled Prestige re-issue, I don't see how simply inputting artist and album title is of any help.

Edited January 16, 2010 by MartyJazz

[Teasing the Korean]

I put together an eastern-tinged jazz/EZ compilation called "Tantric Textures" that included tracks from various LPs and CDs. I never entered the artists or tracks titles when I burned it. It circulated only among a few friends. A few years later, I pulled it out and plunked it into iTunes. The track titles, album name, and artists all showed up. Obviously, someone took the time to enter the information and Big Brother remembered it all. A little scary but kind of cool at the same time!

[Teasing the Korean]

I put together an eastern-tinged jazz/EZ compilation called "Tantric Textures" that included tracks from various LPs and CDs. I never entered the artists or tracks titles when I burned it. It circulated only among a few friends. A few years later, I pulled it out and plunked it into iTunes. The track titles, album name, and artists all showed up. Obviously, someone took the time to enter the information and Big Brother remembered it all. A little scary but kind of cool at the same time!

Is this the one that begins with Chala Nata from Maynard and ends with Paul Mauriat?

That's the one! Is it now legitimately available?

[Teasing the Korean]

That's the one! Is it now legitimately available?

Well, I don't know what it means by being here, but it is.

With my wife's name, no less. She gets all the credit!

[RD44]

Like Rostasi I recently submitted to iTunes the details of a new Frog release. Obviously Frog had not got round to doing it themselves at the time. I wonder what checks there are on such submissions. It could be open to abuse. Someone with a warped sense of humour could have a field day!

[Shrdlu]

Mjzee is right. Every track has a unique "carbon footprint" (lol) and is easily recognized online. For example, if I stick in a CD, to rip it with Winamp, something called Gracenote kicks in and the uploaded tracks all get their titles and timings added automatically. (With a few exceptions that prove the rule.) Also, with my (horribly user-unfriendly) Nokia phone software, I also get obscure album art that I've never seen before. One rare example of that was a pic of Jennifer Cardini, which was added to the tile of "August in Paris", by Shonky.

[MartyJazz]

Weird iTunes tune recognition instance today. I put in Disc 3 ("Glad to be Unhappy" session) of the Paul Desmond Complete RCA recordings box set today, and while iTunes recognized the tracks, the "genre" indicated was not "Jazz", rather "Electronica/Dance". Same thing with Disc 5 ("Easy Living" session). Huh?!!!

Edited February 6, 2010 by MartyJazz

[Noj]

The genres are CONSTANTLY wrong. Tons of my jazz discs come up "Easy Listening" or "Blues" or even "Electronica/Dance" like that one did for you, Marty. Nearly every 1970s Soul/R&B/Funk mp3 from eMusic is labeled "Hip Hop." I'm always like, "What kook labels these things?"

[John L]

The genres are CONSTANTLY wrong. Tons of my jazz discs come up "Easy Listening" or "Blues" or even "Electronica/Dance" like that one did for you, Marty. Nearly every 1970s Soul/R&B/Funk mp3 from eMusic is labeled "Hip Hop." I'm always like, "What kook labels these things?"

If a disc is not in the CDDB database, it takes submissions sent in by ... anyone who likes to spend his or her time doing things like that, in other words "kooks,"

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I was amazed yesterday that it got "Masem" by Tic-Tac, a Ghanaian Hiplife MC, correct.

It's a bit poxy with Japanese CDs, though - tends to put the artist & album title in Japanese. Would you believe it!

MG