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Mark Stryker

left bank jazz society

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I was listening to Sam Rivers' "A New Jazz Conception" this morning via the Mosaic set and the notes say the same quartet (Hal Galper, Herbie Lewis, Steve Ellington) played the Left Bank Jazz Society in Baltimore 12 days after the recording session. Does anyone know if a tape exists? The date appears to be Oct. 23, 1966. A little searching led me to this listing of Left Bank concerts passed along by Ellery Eskelin. http://home.earthlink.net/~eskelin/leftbank.html

Many of these concerts look remarkable, of course. I'm especially wondering if tapes exist for any of the following:

May 23, 1965: Herbie Hancock, Sam Rivers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams (two days after the "Contour" session for Blue Note)

July 7, 1965: Roy Haynes, Wayner Shorter, Albert Dailey, Larry Ridley

August 22, 1965: Jackie McLean, Charles Tolliver, Larry Wills, Wilber Little, Jack DeJohnette (one month before the "Jacknife" session for BN)

May 15, 1966: Freddie Hubbard, Hank Mobley, Ronnie Matthews, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones

June 5, 1966: McCoy Tyner, Joe Henderson, Herbie Lewis, Jack DeJohnette

Dec. 4, 1966: Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Ron Carter, Jack DeJohnette

A few notes:

An exhaustive Joe Henderson discography on the web says there's no known tape of the June 5, 1966, session led by McCoy; also says that Henry Grimes was the bassist rather than Lewis.)

Eskelin's intro says that a 5/7/67 appearance by John Coltrane (Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane, Donald Garrett, Rashied Ali) did in fact take place,

though speculation had been that it was cancelled. If it did take place, it would have been Trane's last concert. Lewis Porter's biography of Coltrane says that concert was cancelled. Any evidence to suggest that it actually did happen?

Edited by Mark Stryker

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Supposedly lots of tapes remain, although their condition has been the matter of much speculation. Joel Dorn was supposed to have struck a deal for them w/one of his labels, & a few things did appear, but not nearly as many as had been hoped for.

The Sonny Stitt Left Bank album (w/the Stitt-Patterson-James trio) on Label M is a classic, imo. It's the Stitt organ group playing for a Stitt organ group crowd, if you know what I mean, and both ends are well-served as a result. A priceless document. Also, Fresh Sounds has come out w/some stuff, notably Lee w/Clifford Jordan & Wynton Kelly w/Hank. The Left Bank piano appears to have not been the best (to put it mildly) and that bugs some people, but "people of a certain age" realize that that was what you got more often than not in a club.

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There are also two Ammons/Stitt albums done there on Prestige - "God bless Jug & Sonny" and @Left Bank encores". The latter includes a guest appearance by Etta Jones. Nice stuff.

Also there were two (I think) by Dex, which also appeared on Prestige. I forget the title of the first - a Roman numeral title - and I haven't got the second (yet).

Label M/Hyena put out a Wynton Kelly set that I haven't got, either.

Joel seems to have had a hard job keeping his record companies going, so I don't doubt that there's more somewhere. But who's got 'em now? Johnathan?

The Stitt that Jim referred to is a killer. One of the best live albums I've ever heard; sure some as good, none better.

MG

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I've got the two Freddie Hubbard Label M discs from the Left Bank and the Getz with Beirach/Holland/DeJohnette; but the Stitt/Ammons had escaped my notice. I'll track it town pronto based on everyone's enthusiasm. Thinking more broadly, there's the Joe Henderson/Wynton Kelly Trio set that came out on Verve and if I recall correctly, the George Coleman w/Wynton Kelly Trio set that goes back to various LP incarnations was also from the Left Bank also has Left Bank roots.

But those dates I singled out above, looked ridiculously enticing. Here's hoping ...

Edited by Mark Stryker

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There are also two Ammons/Stitt albums done there on Prestige - "God bless Jug & Sonny" and @Left Bank encores". The latter includes a guest appearance by Etta Jones. Nice stuff.

Also there were two (I think) by Dex, which also appeared on Prestige. I forget the title of the first - a Roman numeral title - and I haven't got the second (yet).

Label M/Hyena put out a Wynton Kelly set that I haven't got, either.

Joel seems to have had a hard job keeping his record companies going, so I don't doubt that there's more somewhere. But who's got 'em now? Johnathan?

The Stitt that Jim referred to is a killer. One of the best live albums I've ever heard; sure some as good, none better.

MG

Label M did not put out a Kelly at the Left Bank. Verve put out 2 separate cd's with Joe Henderson. Fresh Sound put out 2 double discs sets - one with Mobley in 1967 and 1 with Coleman in 1968.

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Also there were two (I think) by Dex, which also appeared on Prestige. I forget the title of the first - a Roman numeral title - and I haven't got the second (yet).

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I've got (or at least had) a Lee Morgan Left Bank date from about '68? - on FreshSound, if I remember. The piano was so horribly out of tune, I think I gave it to a friend.

It was one of those CD's I put on the trade pile, would look at it a month or two later and think there was no way I could get rid of a live Lee Morgan date, then I'd put it on, which would immediately remind me why I'd put it on the trade pile in the first place. Did that sequence twice, if I recall, before I finally got rid of it (unless i still have it, I'd have to dig for it to confirm).

Edited by Rooster_Ties

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As it happens, I saw Hal Galper tonight with his current trio in Ann Arbor and was able to ask him if he remembered the gig and if somebody taped it. The bad news: no tape. What was really funny, however, given the issues with the piano that folks have noted in this thread, was that when I asked if a tape exists he said, "I hope not! I hated that gig. It was a TERRIBLE piano. Everybody else could have fun and I had to suffer." 44 years later and that piano still bugs him.

Edited by Mark Stryker

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Please, send more information about the Wynton Kelly set issued on Hyena.

Thanks!

Claude

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Please, send more information about the Wynton Kelly set issued on Hyena.

Thanks!

Claude

See my post #6 above.

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From the article Marcello posted above...

For years, the window remained closed. Left Bank officials had never intended the tapes for public release and they wanted to keep it that way.

"We told the musicians we were doing it for our private archives," society president Fowler says. "We never had any inclination we would do anything with them other than listen to them ourselves. . . . When we first talked to Dorn, there was a lot of mistrust within the organization, concerns that he was going to rip us off."

I'm always a bit fascinated and confused by thinking such as this. So the Society wanted the recordings only for their "private archives?" What does that mean exactly - and how's that any different from me bootlegging a concert if I don't intend to share or sell it? The "historian/archivist" side of me wishes that we could all just ignore copyright/royalty concerns and just release historical stuff like this for all to enjoy, but obviously that's not fair to the performers... though they did presumably get paid for these gigs in many cases 40+ years ago. I guess I just don't understand the point of a Jazz Society recording performances but having no intention of doing anything with them.

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The only guy I ever talked to affiliated with LBJS was very much intent on selling these tapes. He wouldn't even tell me who or what was on them without some financial commitment.

Bertrand.

Edited by bertrand

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From the article Marcello posted above...

For years, the window remained closed. Left Bank officials had never intended the tapes for public release and they wanted to keep it that way.

"We told the musicians we were doing it for our private archives," society president Fowler says. "We never had any inclination we would do anything with them other than listen to them ourselves. . . . When we first talked to Dorn, there was a lot of mistrust within the organization, concerns that he was going to rip us off."

I'm always a bit fascinated and confused by thinking such as this. So the Society wanted the recordings only for their "private archives?" What does that mean exactly - and how's that any different from me bootlegging a concert if I don't intend to share or sell it? The "historian/archivist" side of me wishes that we could all just ignore copyright/royalty concerns and just release historical stuff like this for all to enjoy, but obviously that's not fair to the performers... though they did presumably get paid for these gigs in many cases 40+ years ago. I guess I just don't understand the point of a Jazz Society recording performances but having no intention of doing anything with them.

I believe they were played on a radio show that one of the principals had.

Other than that, these days many institutions record for archival purposes.

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I was listening to Sam Rivers' "A New Jazz Conception" this morning via the Mosaic set and the notes say the same quartet (Hal Galper, Herbie Lewis, Steve Ellington) played the Left Bank Jazz Society in Baltimore 12 days after the recording session. Does anyone know if a tape exists? The date appears to be Oct. 23, 1966. A little searching led me to this listing of Left Bank concerts passed along by Ellery Eskelin. http://home.earthlin...n/leftbank.html

Many of these concerts look remarkable, of course. I'm especially wondering if tapes exist for any of the following:

May 23, 1965: Herbie Hancock, Sam Rivers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams (two days after the "Contour" session for Blue Note)

July 7, 1965: Roy Haynes, Wayner Shorter, Albert Dailey, Larry Ridley

August 22, 1965: Jackie McLean, Charles Tolliver, Larry Wills, Wilber Little, Jack DeJohnette (one month before the "Jacknife" session for BN)

May 15, 1966: Freddie Hubbard, Hank Mobley, Ronnie Matthews, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones

June 5, 1966: McCoy Tyner, Joe Henderson, Herbie Lewis, Jack DeJohnette

Dec. 4, 1966: Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Ron Carter, Jack DeJohnette

A few notes:

An exhaustive Joe Henderson discography on the web says there's no known tape of the June 5, 1966, session led by McCoy; also says that Henry Grimes was the bassist rather than Lewis.)

Eskelin's intro says that a 5/7/67 appearance by John Coltrane (Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane, Donald Garrett, Rashied Ali) did in fact take place,

though speculation had been that it was cancelled. If it did take place, it would have been Trane's last concert. Lewis Porter's biography of Coltrane says that concert was cancelled. Any evidence to suggest that it actually did happen?

Those are some mouth watering gigs for sure. I almost fell off my chair when I read those on Ellery's site years ago.

I talked to Joel Dorn numerous times when he was going through the tapes as I was involved in the release of the Freddie Hubbard material.

I definitely asked about some of the ones mentioned above and about certain artists in general and don't recall all his answers now.

One big issue was clearances. If it involved big names like Hancock, Shorter, Tyner or Rollins then it was going to be too cost prohibitive for him to release.

I was particularly intrigued with

May 23, 1965: Herbie Hancock, Sam Rivers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams

July 7, 1965: Roy Haynes, Wayner Shorter, Albert Dailey, Larry Ridley

May 15, 1966: Freddie Hubbard, Hank Mobley, Ronnie Matthews, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones

Dec. 4, 1966: Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Ron Carter, Jack DeJohnette

Especially the Shorter/Haynes thing but again this one would have been too cost prohibitive to release.

There were also sound quality issues. Some were recorded much better then others. I remember asking about a Lee Morgan one and being told there was no bass audible on the recording.

The rights reverted back to whomever licensed them to Dorn years ago.

Someone else could license them and see what is there but the best ones are going to be costly to release.

I have a program similar to Ellery's that I just acquired but this is a later one that lists concerts up to 12/15/74

There is nothing as jaw dropping as what is mentioned above but there is some interesting stuff.

The Coltrane concert in question is still listed.

Other stuff of interest

Max Roach with Charles Tolliver and Odean Pope

Art Blakey with Curtis Fuller back in the band with Woody Shaw 6/1/69

Lee Morgan with Billy Higgins subbing for Freddie Waits 1/24/71

Art Blakey with three tenor players Ramon Morris, Buddy Terry and Denny Marouse? 4/9/72

Art Blakey with Dizzy Reece 1/21/73

Elvin Jones with Hank Jones and Azar Lawrence and Steve Grossman 4/1/73

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From the article Marcello posted above...

For years, the window remained closed. Left Bank officials had never intended the tapes for public release and they wanted to keep it that way.

"We told the musicians we were doing it for our private archives," society president Fowler says. "We never had any inclination we would do anything with them other than listen to them ourselves. . . . When we first talked to Dorn, there was a lot of mistrust within the organization, concerns that he was going to rip us off."

I'm always a bit fascinated and confused by thinking such as this. So the Society wanted the recordings only for their "private archives?" What does that mean exactly - and how's that any different from me bootlegging a concert if I don't intend to share or sell it? The "historian/archivist" side of me wishes that we could all just ignore copyright/royalty concerns and just release historical stuff like this for all to enjoy, but obviously that's not fair to the performers... though they did presumably get paid for these gigs in many cases 40+ years ago. I guess I just don't understand the point of a Jazz Society recording performances but having no intention of doing anything with them.

I've played a lot of gigs for festivals, performing arts society's and jazz society's and the contracts often state they they would like to record the concert for archival purposes and clearly state it is for that use only and that any other use would have to be negotiated with the artist. I don't have a problem with that as long as the artist has some say. If someone wanted to release such a recording it would have to meet with my approval artistically and sound quality wise and of course a fee would have to be negotiated so the band could be compensated.

When Dorn had the tapes, he paid the artists and I assume Verve did and I'm sure Prestige did as well. Fresh Sound...well......

The Left Bank people shouldn't have licensed the material to someone who wouldn't pay the artist for it's release. That is problematic.....

Back to the archival recordings.....you do have a right to tell them no, don't record us and this will insure it won't be an issue later on.

One time when I was doing a gig with Freddie Hubbard, we did a concert at a performing arts center and they wanted to record it for archival purposes. Freddie wasn't in good shape. It was his last gig before he had surgery for a pinched nerve in his neck and he could barely walk so I thought it was going to be a rough night so I told them they couldn't record it. Freddie came out and had some sort of flashback and played great, the best I had heard him in years and except for maybe one or two gigs this would have been the best document of Freddie playing with the group we could have ever gotten. After the show, I asked the promoter if he didn't listen to me and taped it any way as I would really love a copy. Even if he did record it, there was no way he could say yes......

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I was listening to Sam Rivers' "A New Jazz Conception" this morning via the Mosaic set and the notes say the same quartet (Hal Galper, Herbie Lewis, Steve Ellington) played the Left Bank Jazz Society in Baltimore 12 days after the recording session. Does anyone know if a tape exists? The date appears to be Oct. 23, 1966. A little searching led me to this listing of Left Bank concerts passed along by Ellery Eskelin. http://home.earthlin...n/leftbank.html

Many of these concerts look remarkable, of course. I'm especially wondering if tapes exist for any of the following:

May 23, 1965: Herbie Hancock, Sam Rivers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams (two days after the "Contour" session for Blue Note)

July 7, 1965: Roy Haynes, Wayner Shorter, Albert Dailey, Larry Ridley

August 22, 1965: Jackie McLean, Charles Tolliver, Larry Wills, Wilber Little, Jack DeJohnette (one month before the "Jacknife" session for BN)

May 15, 1966: Freddie Hubbard, Hank Mobley, Ronnie Matthews, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones

June 5, 1966: McCoy Tyner, Joe Henderson, Herbie Lewis, Jack DeJohnette

Dec. 4, 1966: Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Ron Carter, Jack DeJohnette

A few notes:

An exhaustive Joe Henderson discography on the web says there's no known tape of the June 5, 1966, session led by McCoy; also says that Henry Grimes was the bassist rather than Lewis.)

Eskelin's intro says that a 5/7/67 appearance by John Coltrane (Pharoah Sanders, Alice Coltrane, Donald Garrett, Rashied Ali) did in fact take place,

though speculation had been that it was cancelled. If it did take place, it would have been Trane's last concert. Lewis Porter's biography of Coltrane says that concert was cancelled. Any evidence to suggest that it actually did happen?

Those are some mouth watering gigs for sure. I almost fell off my chair when I read those on Ellery's site years ago.

I talked to Joel Dorn numerous times when he was going through the tapes as I was involved in the release of the Freddie Hubbard material.

I definitely asked about some of the ones mentioned above and about certain artists in general and don't recall all his answers now.

One big issue was clearances. If it involved big names like Hancock, Shorter, Tyner or Rollins then it was going to be too cost prohibitive for him to release.

I was particularly intrigued with

May 23, 1965: Herbie Hancock, Sam Rivers, Ron Carter, Tony Williams

July 7, 1965: Roy Haynes, Wayner Shorter, Albert Dailey, Larry Ridley

May 15, 1966: Freddie Hubbard, Hank Mobley, Ronnie Matthews, Paul Chambers, Philly Joe Jones

Dec. 4, 1966: Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Freddie Hubbard, Ron Carter, Jack DeJohnette

Especially the Shorter/Haynes thing but again this one would have been too cost prohibitive to release.

There were also sound quality issues. Some were recorded much better then others. I remember asking about a Lee Morgan one and being told there was no bass audible on the recording.

The rights reverted back to whomever licensed them to Dorn years ago.

Someone else could license them and see what is there but the best ones are going to be costly to release.

I have a program similar to Ellery's that I just acquired but this is a later one that lists concerts up to 12/15/74

There is nothing as jaw dropping as what is mentioned above but there is some interesting stuff.

The Coltrane concert in question is still listed.

Other stuff of interest

Max Roach with Charles Tolliver and Odean Pope

Art Blakey with Curtis Fuller back in the band with Woody Shaw 6/1/69

Lee Morgan with Billy Higgins subbing for Freddie Waits 1/24/71

Art Blakey with three tenor players Ramon Morris, Buddy Terry and Denny Marouse? 4/9/72

Art Blakey with Dizzy Reece 1/21/73

Elvin Jones with Hank Jones and Azar Lawrence and Steve Grossman 4/1/73

Thanks for the details. I get that there's a distinction between what may exist and what's releasable when you factor in payment cost for artists and sound quality issues. But I gather at this point that not even any unauthorized bootleg cassettes of any of the particularly mouth-watering gigs listed above have ever surfaced, correct?

Edited by Mark Stryker

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I remember asking about a Lee Morgan one and being told there was no bass audible on the recording.

How many people would feel ripped off if a live Lee Morgan set was released and the bass was nowhere to be heard? How many people would snap such a release up if it showed up on that Andorran "Rare Live Recordings" label?

I can understand the financial implication of releasing certain tapes being a huge hindrance but aside from massive over-saturation of the tape, I don't really see why audio quality should be that much of an impediment.

Edited by Dan Gould

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omg, billy higgins playing w/ lee in 1971? Freddie Hubbard & Hank Mobley, 1966? wait wait so who, possess these tapes now? the Leftbank jazz societys long defunct, i take it, is someone holding the tapes? id put 5k down if a few more board members were willing to match that we can pay this guy off and here some live in concert mobley and the lee/billy higgins reunion concert which also i am exteremly interested in!

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oh ohthat article linked about says the tapes are at Morgan state university!

ok so i know dorn did the stitt/patterson and the hubbard/maupin and isnt there a hubbard/heath one, but i dont know of others he released..?

Edited by chewy

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They haven't been at Morgan State for years.

Bertrand.

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I made a few inquries over the years but at this point I gave up. They're gathering dust somewhere instead of being digitized and preserved and stored in an archive where they belong for researchers to listen to.

Bertrand.

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Just remembered I have an LBJS gig issued on LP - on the Edmar label, which later moved to Bermuda ( :crazy: ) It features Mickey Fields, a Baltimore tenor player well known for wiping the floor with visiting tenor players (see Bob Porter's notes to Turrentine's "Jubilee shouts"), accompanied by the Groove Holmes trio. Must have been done about 1968 - Holmes' band included George Freeman and the same drummer as on his PR LP "The groover". Can't remember the title which is simple (but extended) hyperbole. There are two non LBJS tracks done with Fields' own band at his regular gig, which are somewhat lame. My guess is that it was issued not long after the gig.

MG

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yea bertrand, what is up w/ the rare jazz treasure being horded for no apparant reason, omg people are so backwards. when this guy dies, who ever he is-- there just gonna be thrown out in the trash or end up at goodwill, i swear-to-god.

MG: that lp sounds like a good one: groove holmes puts on a pretty insane live show

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