Robert Johnson

[JSngry]

Who? Gene Pitney?

[paul secor]

I was listening to the Yazoo CD, The Roots of Robert Johnson, the other day, and got to thinking about what might have happened if Robert Johnson had lived and had come to New York to play at John Hammond's From Spirituals to Swing concert. He might have been taken up by Hammond's New York liberal crowd and become a "folk" performer like Leadbelly and Josh White, performing for primarily caucasian audiences. Speculation is easy, but it sometimes provides something to think about.

[danasgoodstuff]

So, I was on the net the other day reading 'bout the 100th ann. celebrations taking place down in the Delta this year and it just seemed so wrong - high-end spa stays complete with facials, not not that kind of facial, Robt probably would've been into that...

[Chalupa]

Happy Birthday to Robert Johnson. He would have turned 100 years old today.

[bluesoul]

NYT obit:  Claud Johnson, 83, Son of Blues Singer

[johnblitweiler]

Robert Johnson - incredible intensity.

In a book somewhere Peter Guralnik wrote that Robert Johnson was a pioneer in playing electric guitar during a gig in St. Louis not long before he died.

[MomsMobley]

100 years later, Robert Johnson is still a decent performer-- on a handful, two handfuls tops-- of songs and creative mediocrity. He's also a mediocre guitarist though if one wants to posit his simplifications as "progressive" and laying groundwork imminent electric etc... fine, whatever.

He was the "King" of nothing but a canny Columbia propaganda campaign and the second album still mostly sucks.

Mr. Litweiler, were you friends with Don Kent at all when he lived in Chicago?

I don't know Don's personal opinion on RJ but he certainly has-- and knows-- the records which glaringly highlight what a fraud the Johnson myth is-- that goes for Robert Lockwood and Johnny Shines dubious recollections etc.

Why some people are so invested in this myth is beyond me; granted it's easier to valorize "rock" & corporate sanctified crap than actually work one's way through, say, Tampa Red's astounding discography but that doesn't make it true.

Also, this "unfair" & inexact but hyping-- & believing Robert Johnson as anything but a diminution of the tradition he's tail end of is like, I dunno, choosing Lou Donaldson over Bird... people can do whatever they like but it's still ridiculous.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 3, 2015 by MomsMobley
qua quadruped

[paul secor]

You've been reading too many Steven Calt liner notes.

[John L]

It used to be fashionable to place Robert Johnson up on a pedestal as superior to all others.  Now it is fashionable to bash him down to nothing.   Both views are wrong.

Not that Moms is a person of fashion.  I am just saying...

[kh1958]

Monday night I was in San Antonio on a work trip and stayed at the Gunter Hotel, which after I arrived I realized was the location of Robert Johnson's San Antonio recording sessions.  The small display in the lobby was clearly created by an Eric Clapton fan interested in Robert Johnson solely for that reason. 

[MomsMobley]

It used to be fashionable to place Robert Johnson up on a pedestal as superior to all others.  Now it is fashionable to bash him down to nothing.   Both views are wrong.

Not that Moms is a person of fashion.  I am just saying...

Thank you. And I know you're a serious listener JL but it has little to nothing to do with 'fashion' per se. FACT: Robert Johnson offers absolutely nothing, ZERO, in terms of lyricism. There are precisely NO known verses by him that evince any individuality and even the assemblages are generally trite. That leaves the singing & guitar playing. On his best sides-- which I'll number four or five, no more, yes, he's a strong performer... 

But is that strong enough, just because Mitch Miller's record label said so? Why, when I have the ability to listen jazz-pop-blues 1923-1935 (say, though I strong advise all extend that back to the 1890s via Archeophone etc) am I supposed to stop in my tracks when Robert Johnson shows up in 1936 with marginally sharp, somewhat better sounding but also often rather simplified, 'standardized' versions of what's passed before?

If someone wants to get in the same boat as Greil Marcus AND Eric Clapton, Chango help us all!

Luke Jordan, Charley Jordan, Louis Jordan >>>>> ALL have far more to offer Robert Johnson and that's just for starters.

I could, on another occasion, argue that Robert Johnson veneration is in some ways racist, or at least reductionist, in its prioritization of white boy bullshit mythos  over unruly all black everything and if someone really wants to extol RJ as "Chicago electric blues" progenitor (a dubious assertion to begin with) I can only ask... 

are you sure that's a "good" thing? it can be, sometimes, true...

 

 

Edited July 3, 2015 by MomsMobley

[johnblitweiler]

Moms, I may have met Don Kent 50 years ago when I worked at Jazz Record Mart, but I don't remember.

Whether or not Robert Johnson was a great guitarist, was original, learned from Lonnie Johnson records, etc., are all irrelevant. His great intense feeling can suddenly grab you, shock you awake and aware. Much as I love Patton and Tommy Johnson, they blow me away whereas Robert Johnson is more subtle and just as powerful.

As a blues lover pointed out to me, the milk of human kindness is not in Stephen Calt's breast. His former collaborator Gayle Wardlaw, OTOH, is the opposite, judging from hearing him speak.

Wardlaw says that a group of music lovers got together to put up a gravestone on Robert Johnson's grave. On the dedication day the group gathered in a country church next to the cemetery. Hot day, church doors open to try to catch a breeze. During the service a mangy, hungry-looking dog entered the church and started to trot down the aisle. A mourner chased the dog out. The dog returned. This time Wardlaw chased the dog out and stayed out in front to block the dog from coming in again.

After the service the mourners left the church and walked to Robert Johnson's grave to conclude the ceremony. The dog saw them and ran ahead of them, directly to the grave. It urinated on the grave.

Wardlaw said: "the hellhound."

[medjuck]

 

 

But is that strong enough, just because Mitch Miller's record label said so?  

 Using that criterion I guess we have to dismiss Billie Holiday  and Charlie Christian too. 

[Chuck Nessa]

Mitch was not in control when any of those folks recorded and not when Robert Johnson was reissued.

I knew Don Kent a bit back in those old JRM days - horn rimmed glasses, hair straight back, plaid shirt and low riding jeans.

[paul secor]

John Litweiler got it right:

Robert Johnson - incredible intensity.

 

It used to be fashionable to place Robert Johnson up on a pedestal as superior to all others.  Now it is fashionable to bash him down to nothing.   Both views are wrong.

Not that Moms is a person of fashion.  I am just saying...

Thank you. And I know you're a serious listener JL but it has little to nothing to do with 'fashion' per se. FACT: Robert Johnson offers absolutely nothing, ZERO, in terms of lyricism. There are precisely NO known verses by him that evince any individuality and even the assemblages are generally trite. That leaves the singing & guitar playing. On his best sides-- which I'll number four or five, no more, yes, he's a strong performer... 

But is that strong enough, just because Mitch Miller's record label said so? Why, when I have the ability to listen jazz-pop-blues 1923-1935 (say, though I strong advise all extend that back to the 1890s via Archeophone etc) am I supposed to stop in my tracks when Robert Johnson shows up in 1936 with marginally sharp, somewhat better sounding but also often rather simplified, 'standardized' versions of what's passed before?

If someone wants to get in the same boat as Greil Marcus AND Eric Clapton, Chango help us all!

Luke Jordan, Charley Jordan, Louis Jordan >>>>> ALL have far more to offer Robert Johnson and that's just for starters.

I could, on another occasion, argue that Robert Johnson veneration is in some ways racist, or at least reductionist, in its prioritization of white boy bullshit mythos  over unruly all black everything and if someone really wants to extol RJ as "Chicago electric blues" progenitor (a dubious assertion to begin with) I can only ask... 

are you sure that's a "good" thing? it can be, sometimes, true...

 

 

 

Moms, I read some of your posts and think: He knows so much. But he ain't smart.

[MomsMobley]

Columbia 1961

***

now, if we want talk about Okeh to Columbia & the rule of Don Law, that's another, mostly welcome, issue.

 

 

 

***

Don Kent has excellent story about doing mail order for Bob K. early (first?) Chicago JRM store, Big Joe Williams drives up, tired, sleeps in same basement Don is working... There are mice down there, Joe sleeps naked... It's also via Don we know about Bob going to 1963 March on Washington, not that that's secret but I'd not heard it before...

Don Kent on "Cairo," from John's Old Time Radio Show--

http://www.eastriverstringband.com/radioshow/?p=1449

Edited July 4, 2015 by MomsMobley

[jeffcrom]

Moms' posts sometimes drive me crazy, but I'll give him this - as far as I can remember, he never resorts to ad hominem arguments. So I won't begin to question his motivations. But as to his conclusions....

Sure, Robert Johnson's current reputation is partially the result of revisionist history. But that doesn't negate the power of Johnson's best recorded performances. Moms makes some grudging concessions on this point in his last post. I think he and I would agree that Johnson was inconsistent, and recorded some weaker, derivative sides. The amazing, beautiful sides outnumber the weak ones, though; there are certainly more than four or five excellent ones.

Concerning the lyrics, I think Moms is taking one aspect of Johnson's output and exaggerating it. There are plenty of traditional verses in his songs, and I don't see that as a weakness. But there are also things like "Kind Hearted Woman," "Come on in My Kitchen," "Love in Vain," "Hell Hound on my Trail," even the well-known "Crossroad Blues" that are filled with original, even poetic lyrics. And hey, even though all the lyrics are traditional, "If I Had Possession Over Judgement Day" will always be my favorite version of "Rollin' and Tumblin'."

The assertion that Johnson was a poor guitarist is the most baffling thing that Moms has said in this thread. It seems obvious to me that he was one of the better Mississippi Delta guitarists - not the equal of Southeasteners like Blind Blake or Blind Willie McTell, or even of his student Robert Lockwood, but pretty damn good. On almost every song there are multiple layers of stuff going on in the guitar parts. And listen to "Sweet Home Chicago." I've never listened to this recording without marveling at Johnson's touch - like Glenn Gould, he calculates the weight of each bass line and countermelody, and plays each at the proper dynamic level - all at the same time. This is guitar playing at a pretty high level.

The Lou Donaldson/Charlie Parker analogy is way off base. A closer (though still not perfect) analogy would be King Oliver. With the Creole Jazz Band sides, he brought the contrapuntal New Orleans jazz style to its highest point, even as that style was going out of style. Johnson's position regarding the Delta blues is similar.

I like to keep it clean with Charley Jordan as much as anyone; he's an excellent guitarist and an engaging singer. But he's not on the same level as Johnson. There's a flatness, a sameness to many of his sides - an internal sameness, meaning that every verse sounds about like the last one did. That's true even of his best songs, like "Keep It Clean" and the one you posted. None of this is meant to indicate that I don't love me some Charley Jordan - just saying that he's a talented, enjoyable minor figure. In contrast, listen to the internal variety in most of Johnson's songs. Take "Kind Hearted Woman" as an example - Johnson constantly varies the melody (melodies, really) and accompaniment. 

And of course, the most important part of music is that mysterious quality that involves "lifting the bandstand," as Thelonious Monk said. To my ears, Robert Johnson lifted the bandstand more often than not, in a way that the other musicians you posted didn't. I urge you to forget about the "white boy bullshit" and give another listen.

Oh, and I would advise any interested party to visit all three of Robert Johnson's graves. It will take you about two hours. I personally suspect that he's not in any of them.

Edited July 4, 2015 by jeffcrom

[JSngry]

All this opinion is based on records and stories about live gigs that none of us were at. Sure, that's all we have, but also, that's all we have.

[jeffcrom]

All this opinion is based on records and stories about live gigs that none of us were at. Sure, that's all we have, but also, that's all we have.

As should be apparent, my post above was based entirely on his recordings. That's all we have with lots of our musical heroes.

I'm still glad I visited all them graves, though.

[JSngry]

Absolutely. I just meant that with any historical music/people, especially of this type/time, there is no certainty of anything because A} not everybody got recorded and B) even if they did, people can love you live and not care shit about your records, or even know you got records to hear. So, all this Robert Johnson was God and/or all this Robert Johnson = Highly Overinflated.White Projection..I don't know, man, I just don't know. I've played in a few roadhouses where nobody knows about unless they're supposed to know about them with an occasional itinerant bluesmen who nobody's EVER heard of except those who put them up while they're in town and those who are left being owed something once they leave (often the same person), and this was long in the second half of the 20th century, when the trend towards EVERYBODY making SOME kind of record or at least demo tape was well past the point of no return, so that shit was STILL going on within the last 25-30 years, and might well still be, although if it is, good god...I don't doubt but that it is..there's still unvisible land for people to get into and people wanting to be unvisible, right?

Point just being that Robert Johnson Record Star Legend Icon & Robert Johnson real person, real life, real music...you gotta have imagination either way, know what I'm saying? You know that scene in Honkytonk Man where Clint just shows up, plays for a shack full of a couple of dancers all by himself, gets some tips and then books? That struck be as being more real than people might think, not about Clint Eastwood of course, but just about the way a lot of people we still don't know about today got to the point to where we still don't know about them today. That scene actually moved me to tears, because, hey, roadhouses that do not have roads leading to them, ok? Real shit.

So, I'm like, yeah, records, can't live without them, but nevertheless, shit happens anyway, just keep that part of the perspective in place and mysteries become less mysterious, because you'll never know everything you want to know, never mind everything you need to know, just ain't gonna happen, not here it ain't. That and that what "happened" depends on a lot of things, not the least of which is what is meant by "happened", and anybody who don't get that, leave them blues alone, I'm telling you, because you will be tricked out of your sanity before you know it and then be considered the sanest man or woman alive, that's what them blues will do to you. If them blues don't create a certain discomfortable comfort of distance on and for your behalf, something ain't right.

 

[MomsMobley]

 

El Jefe, just lost longer reply-- RJ at his best was effective guitarist but also diminution, transitionary figure. He sings OK but it's not 'haunting,' just schtick, which you can tell from all the mediocre-to-lesser sides where the schtick doesn't work. (Compare to Skip James. Now Lemon Jefferson has some lesser sides also, in which he's clearly simplified his style at producer's behest before and after he's awesome.)

re: "Love in Vain"...  you mean red light / blue light... like this? (sidenote to JSngry: note "Port Arthur" too.)

 

Now you've heard this I'm sure-- as did Robert Johnson.

Edited July 4, 2015 by MomsMobley

[paul secor]

Columbia 1961

There are all sorts of games one can play.

[paul secor]

Or

Columbia 1961

 

 

 

[AllenLowe]

if you want to know one sign of RJ's greatness - and thanks, Jeff Crompton, for that very perfect summation of his brilliance - listen to the turnarounds. A friend of mine, a great jazz pianist, one described these as unworldly and perfect - a level of harmonic free association yet paced like a dream (my words, not his).

Edited July 4, 2015 by AllenLowe

[John L]

Moms' posts sometimes drive me crazy, but I'll give him this - as far as I can remember, he never resorts to ad hominem arguments. So I won't begin to question his motivations. But as to his conclusions....

Sure, Robert Johnson's current reputation is partially the result of revisionist history. But that doesn't negate the power of Johnson's best recorded performances. Moms makes some grudging concessions on this point in his last post. I think he and I would agree that Johnson was inconsistent, and recorded some weaker, derivative sides. The amazing, beautiful sides outnumber the weak ones, though; there are certainly more than four or five excellent ones.

Concerning the lyrics, I think Moms is taking one aspect of Johnson's output and exaggerating it. There are plenty of traditional verses in his songs, and I don't see that as a weakness. But there are also things like "Kind Hearted Woman," "Come on in My Kitchen," "Love in Vain," "Hell Hound on my Trail," even the well-known "Crossroad Blues" that are filled with original, even poetic lyrics. And hey, even though all the lyrics are traditional, "If I Had Possession Over Judgement Day" will always be my favorite version of "Rollin' and Tumblin'."

The assertion that Johnson was a poor guitarist is the most baffling thing that Moms has said in this thread. It seems obvious to me that he was one of the better Mississippi Delta guitarists - not the equal of Southeasteners like Blind Blake or Blind Willie McTell, or even of his student Robert Lockwood, but pretty damn good. On almost every song there are multiple layers of stuff going on in the guitar parts. And listen to "Sweet Home Chicago." I've never listened to this recording without marveling at Johnson's touch - like Glenn Gould, he calculates the weight of each bass line and countermelody, and plays each at the proper dynamic level - all at the same time. This is guitar playing at a pretty high level.

The Lou Donaldson/Charlie Parker analogy is way off base. A closer (though still not perfect) analogy would be King Oliver. With the Creole Jazz Band sides, he brought the contrapuntal New Orleans jazz style to its highest point, even as that style was going out of style. Johnson's position regarding the Delta blues is similar.

I like to keep it clean with Charley Jordan as much as anyone; he's an excellent guitarist and an engaging singer. But he's not on the same level as Johnson. There's a flatness, a sameness to many of his sides - an internal sameness, meaning that every verse sounds about like the last one did. That's true even of his best songs, like "Keep It Clean" and the one you posted. None of this is meant to indicate that I don't love me some Charley Jordan - just saying that he's a talented, enjoyable minor figure. In contrast, listen to the internal variety in most of Johnson's songs. Take "Kind Hearted Woman" as an example - Johnson constantly varies the melody (melodies, really) and accompaniment. 

And of course, the most important part of music is that mysterious quality that involves "lifting the bandstand," as Thelonious Monk said. To my ears, Robert Johnson lifted the bandstand more often than not, in a way that the other musicians you posted didn't. I urge you to forget about the "white boy bullshit" and give another listen.

Oh, and I would advise any interested party to visit all three of Robert Johnson's graves. It will take you about two hours. I personally suspect that he's not in any of them.

Excellent post, Jeff. Thanks.