medjuck Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 I just saw this on the Jazzmatazz site. NEW Bunny Berigan - The Key Sessions: 1931-37 - 5 CDs (JSP) Jan? — with the Boswell Sisters, Tommy Dorsey, Bing Crosby, Glenn Miller, etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jazzbo Posted December 11, 2003 Report Share Posted December 11, 2003 Yeah, funny, the Mosaic box comes out, then. . . . RRRR said Mad John Cash! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 "I shot a man in Reno just to watch him die", said Mad Johnny Cash, and this kind of thing nearly justifies it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 For those of us who couldn't take a hint unless delivered on the end of a two by four, I take it JSP is a label that should be avoided for ethical reasons? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 I've been wondering about this too--some of their sets lately seem to be following closely on the heels of Mosaic sets (Venuti/Lang, Bix & Tram, now the Berigan). I've had a great deal of respect for them in the past, and Clem is right about those Cab boxes, both quite worthy of being picked up. I guess the issue is, are they re-mastering off their own 78s, or are they simply dubbing from the Mosaics? If it's the former, then they're merely guilty of thematically following in Mosaic's footsteps... if it's the latter, then they're stealing Mosaic's work, aren't they? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted December 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Aarghhh. I didn't know this duplicated the Mosaic box when I posted. Shows how much I know about Bunny. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 This material is public domain in Europe. Is there evidence that the remasterings in the Patton case or the Berigan case are stolen? If so, it would be good to hear it. As things stand, the tendency to denounce all European issues as thefts is not helpful (and potentially libellous). I would like to know for sure, what is copied and what not, and I won't take the copied material. But to do that I would like to have accurate information, if anyone can help with that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 (edited) The amazon reviewer claims that the sound of the revenant and the JSP are dramatically different. Even if that is not true, I don't agree that you can accuse people of a crime and then challenge them to disprove it. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. PS To save on gruffness I mailed John Stedman to ask him. Let's see what he says. Edited December 12, 2003 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
montg Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 the tendency to denounce all European issues as thefts is not helpful This is a good point. Some of the very best remasterings I've heard have come from the UK (JRT Davies, Ted Kendall, and Dave Bennett). I only wish these guys would be allowed into the US vaults to apply their wizardry to the 78 masters contained therein. That being said, their work, and source material, is typically identified on reissues for compaines like Frog, Avid, Hep etc. A lot of times this info is missing on some of the other proper-type labels. I e-mailed John Steadman before with the same question and never received a response. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Let's also say JSP "reprocessed" things they took from the Renenant box. Do you think that's right? It must be clear from what I have already said that I think it would be wrong. But I don't automatically draw the conclusion that this is what happened, as you seem to. People who have compared them find the JSP sounds better, and do not make the claim you are making. So for me the jury is out. By the way the JSP is not the first UK issue of Patton. Catfish records did a 3-Cd set a few years ago, including rare material. People in Europe can collect records too, whether or not they are released here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
medjuck Posted December 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 Is it possible that some European labels have found a way to remix the American issues (and other European releases)? I 've found improved sound for the BG Carnagie Hall Concert, Complete Charlie Patton and Live Charlie Christian on budget European boxes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 12, 2003 Report Share Posted December 12, 2003 (edited) It is also possible that the labels are doing it themselves. That said, I tried to figure out the law on this by looking at UK and US legislation. I have no idea what precedents there are, but my reading of the law in each case is that it is not possible to claim copyright in a remastering. Once the original recording is out of copyright, that follows for any remastering, since it is only the original which is subject to copyright. Or so it would seem, except that I note the whole point of US remasters is to declare a new (p) date , i.e. date of copyright in the sound recording. I don't know if this works legally or not but it looks like it might. I doubt that the law will be changed to reflect copyright in remastering. When US legislation was framed in 1971 it was in response to pressure from major elements in the industry which persuaded Congress that 100,000,000s of dollars were being lost to pirating and home taping. Edited December 13, 2003 by David Ayers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Even if that is not true, I don't agree that you can accuse people of a crime and then challenge them to disprove it. The burden of proof is on the prosecution. Well put, David. Clem, if you've got no proof, challenging the accused to prove their innocence is pure bullshit. Angling for a job with Ashcroft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Nessa Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Jeez, if it looks like a duck............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzmoose Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Sorry 'bout the Ashcroft thing, Clem; just yanking your chain there. I know he's about as far down your list of people as mine. I just thought your demand of "proof" was a bit silly, as "proof" doesn't work that way. Fortunately, we're not in a court of law, so likelyhood is good enough for making our decisions. And sad though this may sound, this jazz neophyte (relatively speaking...) wouldn't know Charlie Patton from Charlie Rich. Yeah, I know; my loss. Just pointing out that I'm not speaking out of any misguided attempt to justify my own purchase or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Charlie Rich aka "the Silver Fox" had some huge country hits in the 1970's and I believe Charlie dabbled in jazz too. Charlie Patton is one of the reasons Mississippi Delta Blues enjoys a legendary reputation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 Chuck At the time of the definitive/mingus scandal did you go into the legal question (which I raised above) about the possibility of copyright in remasters? Also, as far as (what may be) a clone of European provenance like the Patton is concerned, what is the legal position regarding its sale in the US? With the Mingus, if Definitive tried to sell it in the states Uptown could jump on them, right? Or not? All, BTW I have no difficulty rejecting an unethical product even if it is legal - I just notice how the accusations fly in these cases and I am aware that they haven't always been investigated. Have Revenant commented on this or taken any action, do we know? I would really like it if someone could clear up the legal points I raised in my previous post (above) just for my curiosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BERIGAN Posted December 13, 2003 Report Share Posted December 13, 2003 I don't know if it is going to be released anytime soon in the states, googling just showed UK release dates...perhaps it is too soon to show up on our web sites? (I thought in the past the releases were simultaneous in the UK and US?) or do they fear Mosaic? Nothing on their site, at least that these tired eyes could find....I didn't see track listings anywhere either....did anyone? http://www.jsprecords.com/_wsn/page2.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Ayers Posted December 15, 2003 Report Share Posted December 15, 2003 Well, I got a rather general reply: "We use various re-mastering engineers including people like John R T davies, Ted Kendall etc. Most of our releases have material taken from original collections, 78s etc although sometimes we have to take from secondary sources. It's always different." So there we go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brownie Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 The JSP Bunny Berigan 'The Key Sessions 1931-1937' 5CD box is out. It does duplicate the Mosaic box. The JSP box has 128 titles, all of them were in the Mosaic box. The 128 tracks are in Mosaicv sequence. The sides missing from the JSP are: - all the alternate takes included in the Mosaic box, - the two Billie Holiday sessions that were in the Mosaic box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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