Mark Stryker

Storied Trove of 1930s Jazz Is Acquired by Museum

164 posts in this topic

I can't imagine that will happen.. That's why IMHO it's in a library now...

Why not? I don't follow. Do you mean that the museum and library think it would be too costly for them to do this? Because it would not. Internet Archives does it. Even the individual who has the Red Hot Jazz site manages to do it.

I can't imagine Mosaic doing it if the music is all out there and available for free. And if the library can make some money on it, I assume that's why they're talking to Mosaic about doing it.

gregmo

I can't imagine that keeping Mosaic from doing it. Of course people buy things they can find free on the Internet! Look at all the music on the Red Hot Jazz site. It's free there, but there are people who want it on cd instead. The market is not all composed of rational agents acting in their self-interest. This is what the courts do not understand. Mosaic would have NO problem adding value and selling box sets even if all of the music were available from the library or museum's web site. Especially if the library posted it at a lower bit rate for the duration of the print run.

As far as the library making money, why wouldn't they more concerned with making access available for the greatest number of people, according to the ethics and mission of the American Library Association?

I am not trying to be a wiseguy here; I am serious. I don't understand a rush to have Mosaic monopolize it.

Edited by It Should be You

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generally 8 PM to Midnight -

Oh, no! The best stuff always comes after 2 a.m.!

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Oh come on Chuck.. We're like kids on Christmas Eve with a thousand wrapped boxes.. .you can't expect us to be LOGICAL at this time can you????? <_< <_< :unsure: :unsure:

With all the "wringing of hands", what is everyone's favorite Herschel Evan's solo? Is it on tenor, or clarinet? Is Jo playing brushes or sticks behind him?

Go back and learn the available music. :ph34r:

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personally I like the Herschel Evans with Harry James' small group.

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one interesting quote which bothers me a little in a comment about the Charlie Christian solo on the NY Times site:

"It foreshadows the sound that rockabilly guitarists would popularize in the 1950s "

they are referring to his intro, but that comment is way too over-simplified. Interestingly his solo DOES sound like the later electric blues solo intros of the late '40s and early '50s, but the lineage is probably much more complicated, based on some common sources and probably un-recorded sources.

I only mention this because this a classic instance of a jazz commentator, not knowing the history, just ASSUMING that the jazz guys did it all first.

Edited by AllenLowe

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I hope we are not going to be limited to a costly Mosaic set. There's no reason the museum itself can't make this available online for download one song at a time even if Mosaic puts out a commercial box set. This has been hoarded for so long, why put it in the monopoly of a single company for who knows how much longer? License it but non-exclusively. Just my two cents.

As I understand, there are serious copyright issues in the US that Mosaic could potentially address and finance out of a box set issue.

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With all the "wringing of hands", what is everyone's favorite Herschel Evan's solo? Is it on tenor, or clarinet? Is Jo playing brushes or sticks behind him?

Go back and learn the available music. :ph34r:

Now really ... what's making you think that most of those here who clamor for the issue of the "not so obvious" "name" choices among the recorded material on these discs have NOT listened closely enough to the existing recordings by Herschel Evans (or others of similar stature of whose recordings on these discs we aren't even aware of yet)??

Is there any well-founded knowledge for these insinuations?

Do you really feel like those who'd dearly love to hear all that might be on these discs will have to earn their entry ticket to that musc first by proving (to you or to whomever?) that they have dissected enough of the existing music down to the last shred of notes?

Sorry, I find this rather unjustified and unjust.

You may not like what I'm saying here as (though I've been into jazz for well over 30 years and have probably listened closely to much more 30s and early 40s jazz than many of those around here to whom anything before Miles or Trane is just no man's land) I am just a plain and simple jazz lover and collector (and may indeed not have paid my record buying dues by buying enough RECENT releases - that that's my and only my business) and certainly am not one of those producers with tons of behind the scenes insight - BUT:

If you feel like pecking at those who (in your opinion) drool too easily about any new snippets of dusty old recordings seeing the light, then why don't you go and peck at those who go haywire each time over the umpteenth reissue of this or that Miles or Trane stuff with MICROSCOPICAL sound improvement or about this or that snippet of not-yet-released tapes by Miles or Trane (or the like) that invariably will be hailed as a MAJOR discovery in jazz. As if Miles and Trane were the BEGINNING and END of all jazz ...

Whereas these late 30s Savory recordings indeed look like they might fill gaps in what otherwise has gone unrecorded back then (as opposed to much more widespread on-location recording going on in the late 50s and 60s etc.).

So with all due respect - please DO keep things in perspective!

Edited by Big Beat Steve

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I've not yet heard any Hershel Evans that compelled me enough to lock in to the intimate details. But his reputation is such that I've always figured that he was a better player than ever got recorded. I'd really appreciated the opportunity to find out about that.

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Blue and Sentimental.

Chu-ish and nice. But I know what you mean. That's why the small group Harry James' recordings (with Jo Jones and some other Basie-ites as I recall) are important.

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I can't speak for Chuck - he speaks very well for himself - but while it may be human nature to become exited when a trove like this is uncovered - have to admit that I was one who fell into that category - it also may behoove some of us to relisten more carefully to what is already available. I started doing that this morning, and I thank Chuck for giving me the reminder and impetus to do that.

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IMHO, there's nothing wrong with enthusiasm. It's the impetus for buying records, which keeps the industry alive.

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Herschel seems to me - feels to me - like the kind of guy whose personal esthetic was entirely built on playing live, in front of people, in "social situations", and as such that he was probably just intrinsically hard-wired to build it up as he went along. Not even a small group 78 allows for that to really flower into full bloom. Lester, he could compress and adapt. Herschel...doesn't seem like he could, or even that he was interested in doing so.

If it's out there, I'd really like to hear him over the course of two, three, maybe even more, full choruses, because that would quite possibly be a thing of splendorous gloriousness.

No such thing as too much splendorous gloriousness, not in this world.

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IMHO, there's nothing wrong with enthusiasm. It's the impetus for buying records, which keeps the industry alive.

Nothing at all wrong with enthusiasm - life wouldn't be worth living without it. For myself though, sometimes the enthusiasm of collecting overwhelms my listening. It can be difficult to keep both of those things in some sort of balance and perspective.

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IMHO, there's nothing wrong with enthusiasm. It's the impetus for buying records, which keeps the industry alive.

Nothing at all wrong with enthusiasm - life wouldn't be worth living without it. For myself though, sometimes the enthusiasm of collecting overwhelms my listening. It can be difficult to keep both of those things in some sort of balance and perspective.

Agreed. And then there's the space issue - where to put all of it?

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Blue and Sentimental.

Chu-ish and nice. But I know what you mean. That's why the small group Harry James' recordings (with Jo Jones and some other Basie-ites as I recall) are important.

Yeah but Prez's clarinet solo on Blue and Sentimental overshadows his tenor solo.

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I keep listening to the audio samples and I am getting so excited. It feels like when you were a kid and saw those Christmas presents under the tree with your name, but you can't touch them yet; just out of reach.

Does anyone know if any of the restored discs can be listened to at the museum? I will venture uptown to give a listen.

Edited by Hardbopjazz

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one interesting quote which bothers me a little in a comment about the Charlie Christian solo on the NY Times site:

"It foreshadows the sound that rockabilly guitarists would popularize in the 1950s "

they are referring to his intro, but that comment is way too over-simplified. Interestingly his solo DOES sound like the later electric blues solo intros of the late '40s and early '50s, but the lineage is probably much more complicated, based on some common sources and probably un-recorded sources.

I only mention this because this a classic instance of a jazz commentator, not knowing the history, just ASSUMING that the jazz guys did it all first.

from the savory collection: here is a podcast were you can here at minute 15:00 charlie christian´s solo on "shivers" from fall 1939.

Larry Rohter and Loren Schoenberg talked about the collection.

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/19/popcast-is-katy-perry-for-real/?scp=4&sq=savory&st=cse

b.t.w. on the national jazz museum homepage you can hear more sound snippets!

keep boppin´

marcel

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The estates, in sum, deserve NOTHING from these recordings-- as if there's some great goddamn bounty to be had in the first place.

I'm somewhat puzzled why an orphan institution like this got the archive but perhaps this is what will make it legitimate?

The idea of a jazz museum in 21st century HARLEM-- which has had even less the mean interest in jazz for nearly 50 years, at least-- is pretty laughable but some people will do anything to hold on to nostalgia, like ooooh... HARLEM.

Also, FUD LIVINGSTON >>>>>>>>> (Rabbi) Herschel Evans tho' i usually (but not always) prefer the latter's pre-1940 bands.

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The estates, in sum, deserve NOTHING from these recordings-- as if there's some great goddamn bounty to be had in the first place.

I couldn't agree more.....the guys got paid for the gig. OK they didn't sign 'buy-out' contracts in those days but ....people who should know better (this forum excepted) appear to be imagining riches tumbling down from the sale of this material. I'm sure anyone involved in reissuing vintage jazz material on CDs could chill such expectations. Especially after the costs of digitizing, repair and processing are taken into account. And publishing royalties and design and packaging and booklet notes. I wonder what the world sales figure would be for a disc whose main attraction is some previously unheard Chu Berry? Chu's one of my heroes but I wonder if we're talking even 1000 units....

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Even if there are delays getting the music released, it is very nice to think that someday I should have the opportunity to hear new prime recordings of Pres, Bean, Billie, Christian, etc. that I have never heard before. I am going to try to get to the Harlem Jazz Museum one of these days soon. :)

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How much are Dave Tough or Big Sid Catlett or ______'s "estate" gonna ask, and get, I wonder?

I assume this will be worked out but still, other than publishing, it's an asinine consideration, which could be asinine to the power of z if ** ALL ** the "estates" of musicians on any given gig start piping up for their "share."

Harlem hasn't been the largest African-Am. neighborhood in New York City since the late 1940s; not sure the sop was necessaary but if you go John L. do let us know; I would be moderately heartened to learn it's semi-worthwhile.

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