Joe Henderson

[Mark Stryker]

My 2 cents: I always found the State of the Tenor recordings too tame. Several issues: The mix is unnatural -- the bass too upfront, the drums way too far back -- and the tunes are kept purposely short. Plus, though it's odd to say about a live album, it feels over-produced (by Cuscuna & Crouch). Half the material was suggested by them, and while Joe continued to play "Ask Me Now" and "Beatrice" for the rest of his life, he doesn't sound as in tune with some of the other. (Caveat: I got to know these records via the LPs, and I think the mix might be slightly better on CD.)

Far better to my ears -- friskier, more fiery and more fun -- are "An Evening With Joe Henderson" (1987) and Charlie Haden's "The Montreal Tapes" with the same Haden/Foster trio (1989). Slight edge perhaps to the "An Evening With" but I love them both. I don't have any issue with the sound of Foster's drums or the mix on the former; in fact, it sounds much closer to what those three sounded like when I heard them live. 

 

 

 

[Joe]

49 minutes ago, JSngry said:

I love them both. Seems that they hit the stores within a few months of each other(?) and it was, like, ah, Joe's BACK!

Apples AND oranges! Chick does sound to me like he's in a different headspace record to record, though. Not a bad thing. Just something that kind of surprises me every time I spin these and think how — as noted — quickly one came after the other.

 

[Mark Stryker]

Re: Joe and Chick

Chick's "Live in Montreux" set with Joe, Gary Peacock, and Roy Haynes is GREAT. Some video of that performance is available on YouTube. There's surprisingly little documentation of Joe and Roy together -- a great match their springy, loose, bubbling, ever-shifting rhythmic conceptions, 

Coda 1: In addition to official recording that came out on Stretch, there appears to be a bootleg CD on Jazz File called "Trinkle Tinkle" that, if the Lord discography is to be believe, was also recorded at Montreux on the same day as the other material. Only the title tune seems to be repeated repertoire. Anyone know anything more about this? A second set ? 

Coda 2: Chick played a week at the Jazz Workshop in Boston the late '60s with the Kenny Dorham-Joe Henderson Quintet. Reggie Workman & Joe Chambers were on the gig. Where are the tapes of THAT?

 

 

[Joe]

4 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

Re: Joe and Chick

Chick's "Live in Montreux" set with Joe, Gary Peacock, and Roy Haynes is GREAT. Some video of that performance is available on YouTube. There's surprisingly little documentation of Joe and Roy together -- a great match their springy, loose, bubbling, ever-shifting rhythmic conceptions, 

Coda 1: In addition to official recording that came out on Stretch, there appears to be a bootleg CD on Jazz File called "Trinkle Tinkle" that, if the Lord discography is to be believe, was also recorded at Montreux on the same day as the other material. Only the title tune seems to be repeated repertoire. Anyone know anything more about this? A second set ? 

Coda 2: Chick played a week at the Jazz Workshop in Boston the late '60s with the Kenny Dorham-Joe Henderson Quintet. Reggie Workman & Joe Chambers were on the gig. Where are the tapes of THAT?

 

 

Thanks for posting that. Oh, to hear those KD-Joe-Chick tapes!

Edited April 11, 2020 by Joe

[ghost of miles]

19 hours ago, jlhoots said:

Is Joe Henderson in the book?

Whoops! Wrong thread, clearly!😄 I’ll delete and repost in the correct forum. 

[david weiss]

4 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

Re: Joe and Chick

Chick's "Live in Montreux" set with Joe, Gary Peacock, and Roy Haynes is GREAT. Some video of that performance is available on YouTube. There's surprisingly little documentation of Joe and Roy together -- a great match their springy, loose, bubbling, ever-shifting rhythmic conceptions, 

Coda 1: In addition to official recording that came out on Stretch, there appears to be a bootleg CD on Jazz File called "Trinkle Tinkle" that, if the Lord discography is to be believe, was also recorded at Montreux on the same day as the other material. Only the title tune seems to be repeated repertoire. Anyone know anything more about this? A second set ? 

Coda 2: Chick played a week at the Jazz Workshop in Boston the late '60s with the Kenny Dorham-Joe Henderson Quintet. Reggie Workman & Joe Chambers were on the gig. Where are the tapes of THAT?

 

 

I have the bootleg, it came out first, and there are a few tunes on that CD that are not on the official release and vice a versa. It's all amazing stuff.....

[Late]

5 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

I always found the State of the Tenor recordings too tame. Several issues: The mix is unnatural -- the bass too upfront, the drums way too far back -- and the tunes are kept purposely short. Plus, though it's odd to say about a live album, it feels over-produced (by Cuscuna & Crouch).

Agreed. I purchased the compact discs when they first came out and was always a little bugged by Henderson's sound, though his solos were spotless. Back in 2013/14, the Japanese market reissued "Super High Material" versions of these same discs; the improvement in sound is (to me) only minor. I've always had a soft spot for Henderson's cover of "Boo Boo's Birthday."

[JSngry]

Two points offered for consideration:

1. Perhaps counter-intuitively to what you think you hear on records, Joe was in no way a "loud" player. He could project his perfect tone like a motherfucker, but that is not the same as being "loud".
2. The Vanguard is not a ll a particularly "live" sounding room. It's a small mofo that some might even consider "dead". Refer back to Sonny's VV records for proof of that.

 

[Д.Д.]

4 hours ago, Mark Stryker said:

Re: Joe and Chick

Chick's "Live in Montreux" set with Joe, Gary Peacock, and Roy Haynes is GREAT. Some video of that performance is available on YouTube. There's surprisingly little documentation of Joe and Roy together -- a great match their springy, loose, bubbling, ever-shifting rhythmic conceptions, 

I had this CD, and really hated it. As a disclaimer, I can't stand Roy Haynes' playing. There is close to nothing about it that I find enjoyable (well, I do like some of his solos - bet never his playing behind somebody) and I don't listen to many otherwise fine albums because Haynes is ruining it for me. There is only one other well known (and ubiquitous) musician that provokes equally strong negative feelings in me - William Parker. I am indifferent to Corea. And I don't like Peacock in "mainstream" setting (particularly with plastic sound he has here). So this leaves just poor Joe to make this session bearable for me against all odds, and no, the miracle does not happen. He is overly verbose (like everybody else here), just keeping mounting one cliche upon another.         

[kh1958]

26 minutes ago, JSngry said:

Two points offered for consideration:

1. Perhaps counter-intuitively to what you think you hear on records, Joe was in no way a "loud" player. He could project his perfect tone like a motherfucker, but that is not the same as being "loud".
2. The Vanguard is not a ll a particularly "live" sounding room. It's a small mofo that some might even consider "dead". Refer back to Sonny's VV records for proof of that.

 

Actually, the Village Vanguard, if you actually go to hear music there, sounds great. The sound is perfectly balanced. You can hear from any seat in the house. It is fabulous. 

[JSngry]

It does sound great, precisely because it is so "dead". Those types of rooms (when you can find them) are always the best sounding rooms.

Just saying, whatever people are hearing on those Joe VV records, room sound and player sound should be factored into it, that's all.

 

[Ken Dryden]

I agree with the sentiments about hearing live jazz at the Vanguard. Whether hearing a piano trio or the Vanguard Jazz Orchestra, the sound is perfect from anywhere in the club. I haven't taken advantage of it enough while visiting NYC, but every set I've heard there has been memorable.

[ghost of miles]

I've been to the Vanguard three times in the past couple of years, sitting twice on the right-hand side close to the bandstand, and on my last visit (to hear the Monday night Vanguard Orchestra) sitting far in the back center of the room... excellent sound at all of the shows.  

[JSngry]

I'ver got no complaints about the way those Joe records sound, but it sounds like some do. Just pointing out the they sound right to me, not off, what I think the combination of that player in that band in that room sounded like on real time.

[jazzbo]

I love these two volumes, and I've bought them each time they were reissued and I've kept the SHM-CD versions which I think sound best. I like the sound.

[kh1958]

You might want to try the Tone Poet reissue of volume 2 of Joe Henderson at the VV; it sounds amazing/ with you are there sound.

[Joe]

Somehow, I'd not seen this footage of Woody and Joe before this morning.

 

[Justin V]

This thread led me to continue my journey through the Milestone box.  I bought it for $20 last year in great shape.  I'm listening to Multiple for the second straight time.  It is a trip to hear Larry Willis on electric piano with DeJohnette.  I've also pulled out the two Verve live albums with the Wynton Kelly trio.

I also listened to The Montreal Tapes last night.  I must've bought it shortly after its release and it was my first exposure to Al Foster and possibly Henderson (unless I bought Black Fire first).  I guess I am in the minority, but I am fond of the album.  I haven't heard the other two(?) the three recorded together, but I think that they sound great together.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Justin V

[BFrank]

4 hours ago, Justin V said:

This thread led me to continue my journey through the Milestone box.  I bought it for $20 last year in great shape.  I'm listening to Multiple for the second straight time.  It is a trip to hear Larry Willis on electric piano with DeJohnette.  I've also pulled out the two Verve live albums with the Wynton Kelly trio.

I also listened to The Montreal Tapes last night.  I must've bought it shortly after its release and it was my first exposure to Al Foster and possibly Henderson (unless I bought Black Fire first).  I guess I am in the minority, but I am fond of the album.  I haven't heard the other two(?) the three recorded together, but I think that they sound great together.

 

I remember getting that Milestone box when it was being remaindered for CHEAP (I think it was $15-20)

[jlhoots]

1 hour ago, BFrank said:

I remember getting that Milestone box when it was being remaindered for CHEAP (I think it was $15-20)

Me too. Maybe that's why I love it.

[Late]

Question to the board:

• What record, to your ears, contains Henderson's most out playing?

Interpret "out" however you like. The general idea is "outside" of standard changes or even standard pitches.

 

[JSngry]

I don't really think of Joe in those terms, he was always both/and, but if I were to pick one album (as opposed to solo), this one here might not be my final answer, but it is my first one:

aka

It seems funny/odd to me think of Joe in those terms, though...perhaps even counter-intuitive ..would it be ok to say "unnatural"? That's just not how I've ever heard Joe...

Extended as fuck sometimes, yeah, but never "out" in any way, not even with the overtones and stuff. As with Pharoah and Ayler, it was all at the service of a very developed technical expertise. Spontaneous impulses, perhaps, but known outcomes once those impulses got into the pipeline of playing.

I know that's why some people have had reservations about him, they maybe see it as a lack of boldness or character or something, and I get that intellectually (to the degree that I do get it), but my god he just did whatever he wanted to do - and what he wanted to do, he could pretty much damn near always do it, and it always fell into place, never "out" really, just there, in the place where it was.

 

[Joe]

3 hours ago, Late said:

Question to the board:

• What record, to your ears, contains Henderson's most out playing?

Interpret "out" however you like. The general idea is "outside" of standard changes or even standard pitches.

 

Hmmm... that's a tough one. I might say BLACK FIRE, largely because the music's cadences (for lack of a better term; i think I really mean its extreme syncopations) keep Henderson from relying too much on his pet phrase shapes. Not that he HAD that many of those to begin with. But maybe what I'm actually responding too here is Roy Haynes' most out playing!

Edited April 14, 2020 by Joe

[jazzbo]

Barcelona

 

[Late]

1 hour ago, JSngry said:

... it was all at the service of a very developed technical expertise. Spontaneous impulses, perhaps, but known outcomes once those impulses got into the pipeline of playing ...

That makes sense to me. Perhaps stating "when Joe takes it to the edge" might work a little better. I like Joe on the edge. 

1 hour ago, Joe said:

.. maybe what I'm actually responding to here is Roy Haynes' most out playing!

(Don't want to derail the question, but this record probably has my favorite Haynes playing on it. But I need to re-listen to his Impulse! album again to be sure.)