BFT #78 Discussion Thread

[Hot Ptah]

A totally restful day has led to an insominatic night, so, the usual thoughts & disclaimers firmly in place, away we go.

TRACK ONE - No idea. Tenor player sounds like a player with a distinct voice who is "role-playing" here just a little...but doing it quite well. Don't know if I'd buy this one, but it it was in radio rotation, I know I'd not touch the dial when it cam one.

TRACK TWO - Well, we sure got some tuba here! Almost sounds like a later Gil Evans band, that ragged-but-in-a-together type way, might be, but the chart doesn't sound familiar, and Gil's bands didn't usually jump right into it right away like this one does. Performance is very enthusiastic, which might be equated with urgency in some eyes, if not mine...not totally sold on this one as a long-term investment, but it sounds sincere no matter what. I just think everybody sounds a little hyped-up, and they're not giving me any reason why they should be.

TRACK THREE - Geez, that soprano tone is familiar...intonation is sharp-but-on-purpose (aka, playing on top of the pitch), fluency is quite evident...nice to hear everybody being conscious of space and melodic movement, not just flashing licks and concepts and thinking that it's automatically music...I like how the drummer almost gets too busy, but never really does... I think this might have been recorded at a time when players were still getting used to recording wearing headphones and being behind behind baffles and inside isolation booths and such...a couple of times there starts to be this disconnect in the interior time, but it never really happens, to everybody's credit. And is that Ron Carter on bass, or just somebody recorded like him. I suspect the latter, but one never knows...

TRACK FOUR - WHOA! WTF happened? Drummer starts off at one tempo, band comes in with a resounding NO!!!! Supposed to sound like a Basie band, maybe a mid-late 40s version, but I ain't buying it, not after that intro...definitely a swing-bop intermingling thing going on though, which might account for the different time feels being brought into play...tenor could be an early Wardell, or...Lady Q? Historically interesting, whoever it is.

TRACK FIVE - Almost gotta be John Kirby's group. Yeah, that's them, I recognize (I hope!) Procope on alto. You can criticize that for not having much/any improvisation and being "parlor music" of sorts, and ok, but...show me where that parlor is. I'd like to pay it a visit, probably a more-than-casual one.

TRACK SIX - Harry James? There's absolutely no reason why this shouldn't be a total piece of corn. That it isn't speaks volumes to the old adage about ain't what you play, etc... Oh hell, wait, that sounds like Toots Mondello on lead alto, and that's BG on clarinet...Carnegie Hall concert? I've only heard the LP with the side-long jam w/Prez and this ain't on it...but, ok, I still think that's Harry James on trumpet, at least playing lead...yeah, this is good, especially how you can hear the audience and the band feeding off of each other. And so...that would be Jess Stacy? I had an uncle (Uncle Doyle, he was) who idolized Jess Stacy...cat was a banker, never played a note in his life, had a lot of, uh, "unkind" opinions about a lot of things and peoples, but he would probably have died to hear some Jess Stacy. As it is, he died of old age and kidney failure, and was in a coma the last moth or so of his life, but if he was hearing anything while he was in it, it was Jess Stacy. All things considered, not a bad thing to be hearing.

TRACK SEVEN - Wellsir, that's a lot of piano.

TRACK EIGHT - "Tin Tine Deo", geez, that's a beautiful tune that never really got covered wnough to make it the satandard I wish it was. I like the harmonic choices of the pianist here, very knowledgeable, and made from the inside out. Soloing, eh...maybe not so much...ok, but seems a little casusal, a lot of vocabulary without as much dialect as I prefer. Nut whoever it is gets kudos from me for voicings and overall harmonic awareness as it pertains to thematic statement.

TRACK NINE - "Eronel". Not sure why, but this one isn't sitting just right with me. Then again, covering Monk, especially w/solo piano, is tricky. Too much deviation, too much copying, which way to go? I mean, ok, I hear the little deviations here, and thay're all legit enough, I suppose, but in the end, when I ask "why?", I'd like to get an answer. Not sure I'm getting one here, or at least one I can feel ok with. Then again, it ain't my record, so who says I have to?

TRACK TEN - Sounds like The Ethnic Heritage Ensemble w/a bassist instead of Kahil. Ok, two basses. See, I don't even have to ask "why?" don't have to. That's my preference. Very nice tenor playing too...Ed Wilkerson? David Boykin? Somebody Chicago? Best (i.e. - my favorite) cut so far, damn near perfect. Excellent!

TRACK ELEVEN - "Prelude To A Kiss". Wow, this is quite nice...again, I don't have to ask "why?" Damn that's good...masterful, both players. Don't know what they do on anything else, but on this one, they've resented truth and beauty. Kinda hard not to go for that.

TRACK TWELVE - "Peace". Beautiful phrasing...again, there is playing on top of the pitch (NOT "sharp"!!!!). A little casual after the melody statement, though, turns into just another solo after really setting up a zone in the melody statement, not sure I get that. There's hints of that quirly vibrato thing that David Murray has, as well as an oh-so-subtle betrayal of finger insecurity......ah yes, a young, not fully formed Chico Freeman, from Spirit Sensitive. Chico...could have benefited from the old-school apprentice system, except that it didn't hardly exist any more when he came to NYC. Can't blame him, and he has matured.

TRACK THIRTEEN - Tempo! People talk about groove, and yeah, that's right, but...tempo, baby, that too. PLEASE! And this is a tempo! Sounds like "real" "Latin" players too, not "latin-jazz"...heard a little thing that betrayed Eddie Palmieri there...yeah, gotta be. I don't know this one...you hear that trumpet reference the opening like of "Tin Tin Deo"? That might have been entirely accidental, but still...My real interest in Palmieri is as arranger and conceptualist, but there are some pretty damn amazing piano solos of his too...don't know that this is one of them, but it doesn't matter - they got the tempo!

TRACK FOURTEEN - "Stolen Moments", with the right interior voicings! Not sure I dig the drumming...yeah, it's ok, just not recorded the way I'd prefer...really would have like to have heard the entire thing, there's little things (like glockenspiel?!?!?!) that are indicative of a fresh outlook, and that trumpet solo is just...DANDY!

TRACK FIFTEEN - No idea, but I like the spirit. Is that Glenn Ferris on trombone? I believe it is. But damn if that organ doesn't put me in mind of Carla Bley...no matter. I dug it.

TRACK SIXTEEN - The tempo fluctuations are a put-on, right? Why?

Ok, nice comp, not too much of it that I knew. but a lot of it that I enjoyed, and two (possibly three, I'd like to have heard the full "Stolen Moments") total gems. Thanks!

Glad you liked Track 10. Your guesses were not correct for it. It is one of my favorites on this BFT too.

It is not Glenn Ferris on trombone on #15.

You are the second person to know it was Eddie Palmieri on Track #13. Noj knew the song title.

Edited September 5, 2010 by Hot Ptah

[JSngry]

TRACK ELEVEN - "Prelude To A Kiss". Wow, this is quite nice...again, I don't have to ask "why?" Damn that's good...masterful, both players. Don't know what they do on anything else, but on this one, they've Presented truth and beauty. Kinda hard not to go for that.

Fixed, for hopefully obvious reasons...

[seeline]

The more I hear that version of Tin Tin Deo, the more I think Bill threw us a curve.

Whoever it is has extraordinarily little interaction with the drummer, which makes it... kinda dull. The soloing - that gets samey, too. And i think the pianist tries to pull one too many tricks out of the hat to make it interesting. (Has the opposite effect.)

Am very curious to find out who this is...

Edited September 6, 2010 by seeline

[The Magnificent Goldberg]

I though they were saying "Ravioli", not "Johnny Otis"...but the tempo thing on the intro, that should have stopped the take right there.

Glad it wasn't just me. I almost wonder if it was a tongue-in-cheek thing... a little joke... maybe an inside joke... but as you said, to me, all these years later and miles away, it was just a WTF? moment.

I hadn't heard that track before, but the band singing that little "Johnny Otis, Johnny Otis" thing is kind of a cliché with him. I can't remember any titles offhand, but I've got one or two, maybe more, of Johnny's cuts with that sung at the end. Recognised it immediately.

MG

[Jim R]

I though they were saying "Ravioli", not "Johnny Otis"...but the tempo thing on the intro, that should have stopped the take right there.

Glad it wasn't just me. I almost wonder if it was a tongue-in-cheek thing... a little joke... maybe an inside joke... but as you said, to me, all these years later and miles away, it was just a WTF? moment.

I hadn't heard that track before, but the band singing that little "Johnny Otis, Johnny Otis" thing is kind of a cliché with him. I can't remember any titles offhand, but I've got one or two, maybe more, of Johnny's cuts with that sung at the end. Recognised it immediately.

MG

Just to be clear, my comment was with regard to the tempo oddity at the intro, which Jim also found strange. I didn't notice the "Johnny Otis" thing... Maybe I should use headphones and pay more attention to details...

[seeline]

Re. Tin Tin Deo - I'm still stumped, but thought it might be fun to throw out a guess...

Arturo Sandoval, maybe? He does play piano, though I've never heard his "My Passion for the Piano" (or any of the other albums where he switches off, though I checked his discography and apparently there are a few).

That said, I'm still thinking it's someone from the US, and wondering why the drummer isn't taking breaks and interacting more with the pianist.

Edited September 7, 2010 by seeline

[Hot Ptah]

Re. Tin Tin Deo - I'm still stumped, but thought it might be fun to throw out a guess...

Arturo Sandoval, maybe? He does play piano, though I've never heard his "My Passion for the Piano" (or any of the other albums where he switches off, though I checked his discography and apparently there are a few).

That said, I'm still thinking it's someone from the US, and wondering why the drummer isn't taking breaks and interacting more with the pianist.

It is not Arturo Sandoval on piano.

[Hot Ptah]

By the way, #15 has been identified as Carla Bley--Ad Infinitum, from her album "Dinner Music". Spontooneous guessed in the first post on the thread that Roswell Rudd was the trombone soloist. I have always liked his mighty solo on this song.

[Spontooneous]

Post-answer comments after having looked at the thread:

I

I though they were saying "Ravioli", not "Johnny Otis"...

That settles it. Now we have to write an arrangement where the band shouts "Ravioli! Ravioli!"

[Spontooneous]

We can get plenty of gigs at Chef Boy-Ar-Dee sales meetings. It'll be great.

[Hot Ptah]

We can get plenty of gigs at Chef Boy-Ar-Dee sales meetings. It'll be great.

I must confess that I had not anticipated that the Discussion Thread would take this turn, when I chose the song selections for this Blindfold Test.

[JSngry]

Eddie and Charlie Palmieri, playing a rumba, from 1981 - the song is Oye Lo Te Conviene. Vocalist is Ismael Quintana.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-NM26hPXmXs

For my mind, this is the ultimate version of that tune, and maybe the ultimate statement of Palmieri removing any doubt that might have remained that he was now his own man, free to be who and do whatever he damn well pleased. I still remember hearing Side One of this album for the first time (in either 75 or 76, and this was the last cut on that side) and feeling like I had no choice but to sit dawn, shut up, stay down, and just absorb this unbounded mass of LIFE that wasn't going anywhere except onward and upward stronger and faster, surer and truer than anything I had even thought about, real or imagined. And I'm told that Lalo Rodriguez was just a kid the, not even 20, and singing like that.

It's enough to fuck up our head and make you a fan, both for life.

And use the REAL Cover!

[Spontooneous]

Meanwhile, back in Ravioliland...

I found the Tin Tin Deo! It's here.

[Hot Ptah]

Meanwhile, back in Ravioliland...

I found the Tin Tin Deo! It's here.

That is it. You found it!

We hardly need a Reveal at the end of this thread, although I will provide one. I think that there are only two songs not identified, and the song title for the Johnny Otis song has not been stated.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Hot Ptah

[Hot Ptah]

Eddie and Charlie Palmieri, playing a rumba, from 1981 - the song is Oye Lo Te Conviene. Vocalist is Ismael Quintana.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=-NM26hPXmXs

For my mind, this is the ultimate version of that tune, and maybe the ultimate statement of Palmieri removing any doubt that might have remained that he was now his own man, free to be who and do whatever he damn well pleased. I still remember hearing Side One of this album for the first time (in either 75 or 76, and this was the last cut on that side) and feeling like I had no choice but to sit dawn, shut up, stay down, and just absorb this unbounded mass of LIFE that wasn't going anywhere except onward and upward stronger and faster, surer and truer than anything I had even thought about, real or imagined. And I'm told that Lalo Rodriguez was just a kid the, not even 20, and singing like that.

It's enough to fuck up our head and make you a fan, both for life.

And use the REAL Cover!

I have merely listened to the 2 CD retrospective of Eddie Palmieri's career which was released a few years ago on Fania, and I realize that there is a whole world of releases by Palmieri which are essential and must be heard. I hope to be able to find copies. How did his earlier work pass me by for so long? I have heard several of his albums after 1990, and have seen him live in the past 10 years, but his albums from the 1960s through 1980s need to be investigated!

[seeline]

Bill - not to sound like I'm shilling, but www.descarga.com is likely your best source for reissue dates for the Fania catalogue (and much more). A lot of Fania titles were reissued a few years ago, but most all of them are o.p. now.

However, there's another label that's going to be reissuing the entire Fania catalogue, or as much of it as they're able to. I forget the name, but it's small, run by salsa (etc.) fans. There's much more info. on the Descarga site. (Also, they're trying to do a better remastering job than was the case with the last batch of Fania reissues...)

[Hot Ptah]

Bill - not to sound like I'm shilling, but www.descarga.com is likely your best source for reissue dates for the Fania catalogue (and much more). A lot of Fania titles were reissued a few years ago, but most all of them are o.p. now.

However, there's another label that's going to be reissuing the entire Fania catalogue, or as much of it as they're able to. I forget the name, but it's small, run by salsa (etc.) fans. There's much more info. on the Descarga site. (Also, they're trying to do a better remastering job than was the case with the last batch of Fania reissues...)

Thanks. I have ordered from www.descarga.com before, and it is a great site. I could easily spend a huge amount of money there! There is so much to explore in this area of music.

[JSngry]

I know that both of Palmieri's early 70s masterworks (The Sun Of Latin Music & Unfinished Masterpiece) were originally relased on a non-Fania label (Coco, was it?), but I'm pretty sure that both are out on CD now, and both should be readily available thru descarga.com.

Earlier & later Palmieri both contain treasures galore, but those two hit the zone, if you know what I mean.

[seeline]

Not sure myself - didn't he also record for Tico?

[JSngry]

Earlier for Tico, that's where the original La Perfecta stuff can be found, but...let me stroll over the the wall and see...hold on, brb......yes, Coco records, produced by Harvey Averne.

There's a story about Palmieri, that label, and Unfinished Masterpiece, but damned if I can remember the details. All I know is that it and The Sun Of... it's like when you hear somebody hit that zone, that apex of unimpeded creativity, and you know it probably won't last forever, but it's just so STRONG that you let yourself believe that it will, and damned if that doesn't make YOU feel strong too...Good stuff, good place for everybody to be.

[Hot Ptah]

Earlier for Tico, that's where the original La Perfecta stuff can be found, but...let me stroll over the the wall and see...hold on, brb......yes, Coco records, produced by Harvey Averne.

There's a story about Palmieri, that label, and Unfinished Masterpiece, but damned if I can remember the details. All I know is that it and The Sun Of... it's like when you hear somebody hit that zone, that apex of unimpeded creativity, and you know it probably won't last forever, but it's just so STRONG that you let yourself believe that it will, and damned if that doesn't make YOU feel strong too...Good stuff, good place for everybody to be.

O.K. You have convinced me to buy these albums!

[seeline]

Well... I'd add the following (none of which I own; hard to find stuff, mostly)

La Perfecta, (1962)

El Sonido Nuevo: The New Soul Sound, 1966 (with Cal Tjader) and/or Bamboleato (also with Cal, 1967)

Molasses (1967)

Champagne (1968)

Justicia (1969)

Sumperimposition (1970)

his live sets at Sing Sing (1972, 2 discs) and/or (maybe) Live at the University of Puerto Rico (1971)

Lucumi, Macumba, Voodoo (1978)

Edited September 10, 2010 by seeline

[tkeith]

Just had a hunch and played #3 again. I was thinking of Henry Butler's record with the Oboe player on Impulse after reading some of the other comments, but as soon as I clicked play, it hit me! It's THIS!!!!

I knew it was an L.A. connection, but boy, if I hadn't got that I'd have found a high bridge for sure!

[Spontooneous]

You da man, Thom.

Now I feel silly, because I believe I was standing nearby when Hot Ptah purchased that CD a couple of months ago.

[Hot Ptah]

Just had a hunch and played #3 again. I was thinking of Henry Butler's record with the Oboe player on Impulse after reading some of the other comments, but as soon as I clicked play, it hit me! It's THIS!!!!

I knew it was an L.A. connection, but boy, if I hadn't got that I'd have found a high bridge for sure!

YOU ARE CORRECT!

It is Harold Land on oboe.