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CTI reissues: box-set, 1971 concert, single titles


ghost of miles

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My copy of the new "California Concert" reissue should be in the mail today, will let everyone know how it compares. Doug Payne told me it is the best American released CTI CD he's heard.

Unfortunately the copy of California Concert I ordered from Amazon.co.uk has been delayed by 2 weeks. They did shop my copy of The Cool Revolution yesterday. I'm very much looking forward to hearing how the new mastering compares to the older reissues.

Well, this is the definitive version of "The California Concert" the original LP is absolutely dwarfed by this, plus the sound mixed by Dave Darlington from the original 8 track masters and mastered by Maria Triana is stunning. Theres so much more detail and clarity to the mix and the reverb that RVG added on the original LP is gone so it sounds much more natural. Not only that but the album opens with the nearly 25 minute version of "Impressions" and we get the unedited complete version of "It's Too Late" which for some reason was edited when it was first released as the bonus track on "Breakout". The unedited version brings us a solo by Hank Crawford which adds to the heat considerably although he seems to be having reed trouble. "Straight Life" is the best new track for sure, Johnny Hammond on organ there too. The packaging duplicates the original LP minus the gloss, and funnily enough, the CTI logo is in the correct spot on the booklet cover in the lower half of the sun, not moved to the far right. ShowsOn, if you like this album in its original form, you'll love this. Best American CTI reissue ever, IMO.

Edited by CJ Shearn
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Well, I may have to reconsider my stance on live CTI albums then. :)

You really should :) Like Sony's reissue of VSOP "Live Under the Sky", having the whole thing creates a different picture. The expanded "California Concert" has some of the best Hubbard, Turrentine, and Benson ever released.

Yay! I just got a shipment confirmation from Amazon.co.uk saying my copy of California Concert is now on its way. It is funny you mention VSOP Live Under the Sky, because I love that 2 CD set. I still play it often. I have heard some of the live tracks off California concert, I hope I like it as much.

With each disc over 70 minutes long I think I'll just play the first disc for a week before playing the second for a week as well. So much great stuff to get through!

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Well, I may have to reconsider my stance on live CTI albums then. :)

You really should :) Like Sony's reissue of VSOP "Live Under the Sky", having the whole thing creates a different picture. The expanded "California Concert" has some of the best Hubbard, Turrentine, and Benson ever released.

Yay! I just got a shipment confirmation from Amazon.co.uk saying my copy of California Concert is now on its way. It is funny you mention VSOP Live Under the Sky, because I love that 2 CD set. I still play it often. I have heard some of the live tracks off California concert, I hope I like it as much.

With each disc over 70 minutes long I think I'll just play the first disc for a week before playing the second for a week as well. So much great stuff to get through!

I mentioned the VSOP album b/c that also was a full concert release (well, two!) plus in concert order, which changed the flow for the better. The "California Concert" concert order is a constant build, great playing. Only thing I don't like is how the discs and booklet slide around in the mini LP sleeve so just put the discs and the booklet in a regular single 2 disc case as I did with the Japanese issue of "CTI Summer Jazz at The Hollywood Bowl" for easy access.

Edited by CJ Shearn
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Anyone know who the slick announcer is on the "California Concert" reissue? I assume it's a West Coast DJ, but no credit is given.

I must say, for myself, I can only think of a handful of CTI Records that I find rewarding enough to return to on a regular basis. Did any artist record his best work for the label? I will say that killin' exceptions -- records that are fantastic front to back -- would include:

The first two Joe Farrell dates, "Joe Farrell Quartet" and "Outback." (Ghost: Did you know that Michael Bourne used to use "Follow Your Heart" from Farrell's first date as his theme at end of his show when he was on WFIU?)

Bill Evans' "Montreux II"

Freddie's "Red Clay" and "Straight Life" (not as good as the former, but still strong.)

Now, I certainly don't know the entire catalog as well as others surely do, so what would folks rank as the label's unqualified best records? With some recommendations, I'll look for used LPs -- clearly the CD reissues are a hornet's nest when it comes to sonics.

Edited by Mark Stryker
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Anyone know who the slick announcer is on the "California Concert" reissue? I assume it's a West Coast DJ, but no credit is given.

I must say, for myself, I can only think of a handful of CTI Records that I find rewarding enough to return to on a regular basis. Did any artist record his best work for the label? I will say that killin' exceptions -- records that are fantastic front to back -- would include:

The first two Joe Farrell dates, "Joe Farrell Quartet" and "Outback." (Ghost: Did you know that Michael Bourne used to use "Follow Your Heart" from Farrell's first date as his theme at end of his show when he was on WFIU?)

Bill Evans' "Montreux II"

Freddie's "Red Clay" and "Straight Life" (not as good as the former, but still strong.)

Now, I certainly don't know the entire catalog as well as others surely do, so what would folks rank as the label's unqualified best records? With some recommendations, I'll look for used LPs -- clearly the CD reissues are a hornet's nest when it comes to sonics.

Well Mark, "California Concert" certainly qualifies as one of the best CTI records, Stanley's CTI output does, all of it, Johnny Hammond, "Breakout", "Higher Ground", Grover Washington Jr. "Inner City Blues", and "Soul Box", Milt Jackson, "Sunflower", Hubert Laws "Afro Classic" and "Morning Star". Chet Baker "She Was to Good to Me", definitely those Joe Farrell dates. "CTI Summer Jazz at the Hollywood Bowl", which is a sentimental favorite though musically not on the same level as "California Concert" it has great versions of "Inner City Blues/Mercy Mercy Me", "Rocksteady", "Cherry" "People Make the World Go Round", "California Dreaming" and "God Bless the Child". As for the MC on "California Concert", I thought it was Rick Holmes, though it doesn't sound like him. Douglas Payne told me no one knows who that MC is.

@DMP Both albums aren't really related, related only in the sense that they provide complete concerts in running order which drastically changes the complexion of the original albums in a positive way.

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Freddie Hubbard's Keep Your Soul Together, with Junior Cook, is a solid date.

Also, so is Milt Jackson's Olinga, with Jimmy Heath.

I've got both of those on LP and couldn't agree more or more enthusiastically!!!

I'm a CTI nut, so the only help I can give is follow the recommendations above and you won't go wrong. If you end up becoming CTI-obsessed like me, THEN I'll give ya some recs! :)

Edited by Big Al
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  • 2 weeks later...

I received California Concert today. Unfortunately the second disc was scuffed at the edge, perhaps due to the nature of the tight packaging. The good news is that Amazon.co.uk just refunded my money because of the damage! It is annoying though, the last two tracks won't rip securely due to the damage.

I think this is a fantastic set of music. Fantastic versions of Red Clay, So What, Leaving West and Straight Life are the stand outs for me.

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"Straight Life" is great, to combat the scuffing problem I put the discs in a regular jewelcase for two discs, my discs have a few scratches from the packaging but none that effect play. I found that the other discs in this series are easier to get out of the mini LP sleeves. Big Al, have you picked up the California Concert reissue yet?

Edited by CJ Shearn
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I've discovered a pretty huge difference comparing the new Mastersound version of Red Clay with the Epic / Legacy version from 2002. It's now possible to see (or rather hear) that the Epic / Legacy version is a very different mix compared to the original mix presented on the Mastersound CD. Have a listen to this comparison that has the Legacy edition version first and the 2010 Mastersound version second:

https://www.yousendit.com/download/dklvc2ZJYXlUMFB2Wmc9PQ

This is 1 minute from the start of Joe Henderson's solo. The Legacy version has Joe positioned near the centre, perhaps a bit off to the centre-right, whereas in the Mastersound version - which the sticker on the cover says is from the original 2 track master tapes - has Joe way off on the far left. The Mastersound has (Herbie Hancock's) electric piano near the centre, whereas the Epic / Legacy version has the electric piano way off on the left. Also, the hi-hat and ride cymbals on the Epic / Legacy version sound centre-right, but on the mastersound version they are further off to the right thus creating a much broader stereo spread between the sax on the left and the drums.

So it would seem that the 2002 version was remixed, and not in a way that replicates the original mix because instruments have been sent to different parts of the stereo spread. The over all effect is that the stereo image was narrowed I guess to make it more modern sounding?

Incidentally, my copy of California Concert also had the "from the original 2 track master-tapes" sticker on the front, even though the liner notes say it is a remix! It is a very good remix too.

I was hoping that the "Alternate Version" of Red Clay would be a different take. But it is the same live version as on the 2002 CD. Can someone tell me which concert that version was taken from? My 2002 Legacy version of the album is in storage. The sad thing about the Mastersound version is that it doesn't have any liner notes, so I guess that means I'll be keeping both versions. I know some people like the cardboard slip cases but I just find them to be cheap and which offer poor protection to the disc. If they wanted cardboard cases I would prefer proper digipaks, but they probably cost more to produce.

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The "live" Red Clay on the 2002 edition is from Southgate Palace, the night after "California Concert." A couple songs from that night have surfaced as extra tracks, but don't think they add much to the previous night's concert.

Thanks for this. I wish they would release that whole show. Isn't the live version of Sugar on the 2002 Legacy CD from that same show?

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Can anyone confirm whether the Masterworks reissue of "Red Clay" is faithful to the original LP mix and ditto for "Sugar" in relation to the 2002 CD and original LP?

Keep in mind it is possible that RVG narrowed the channels a bit during mastering of the original vinyl. So if these Mastersound discs have gone back to the mastertapes, the new transfers will have a wider stereo image than the original vinyl. RVG has narrowed the stereo image on many of his Blue Note remastered CDs. Maybe this is a habit he started when mastering CTI vinyl? I am not an expert, but I vaguely recall reading once that vinyl can be mastered louder if it doesn't have an extreme stereo spread, i.e. it is narrow stereo rather than wide stereo with instruments out at the extremes.

Why the electric piano and sax are swapped in the Legacy and Mastersound CDs of Red Clay, I can't really say.

Incidentally comparing an LP transfer of Jobim's Stone Flower with the same track from The Cool Revolution box shows that the LP actually has a wider stereo image than the new CD transfer!

I don't think we will get to the bottom of this unless Mark Wilder or someone at Mastersound explains why there are differences, and says which one sounds more like the mastertapes.

I'm listening now to Milt Jackson's Sunflower, the title cut sounds very different on the Legacy CD and the Cool Revolution version. Note these are different versions, The Cool Revolution version is 8:48 whereas the Legacy version is 11:04. But they sound completely different. The Legacy edition sounds compressed and very mono-like, whereas the Cool Revolution version sounds a lot more open with a wider stereo spread and without the bass so prominent (kind of like a Ron Carter led album). I wonder if it is a remix?

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Thanks for your ears and comparisons ShowsOn. It's very interesting, I like the sound of these reissues more than previous US CD reissues of the material but I was confused when you said Mastersound instead of Masterworks.

Whoops! Sorry. I must've been thinking of those old Sony gold CDs.

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I sent an email to CTI Mastworks regarding the - what I consider poor - packaging, but I also asked them about the mix differences. They were kind enough to forward my email to mastering engineer Mark Wilder who provided the following response:

As far as the 2010 reissue, we referenced against original LPs to try to recreate the "feeling" of the original issues. What made this complicated was Creed's and Rudy's attempt to make the albums more radio-friendly, which meant folding the stereo mix to mono at times, sacrificing the beauty of the stereo spread for the power of a mono. In the 2010 reissues, we tried to recreate some of these changes, but not all. We felt that the 2010 reissues were a great balance between the intent of the mixes and the sound that everyone remembers from the LPs.

So there you have it, the original vinyl is folded in at times, seemingly so the music would sound more powerful (louder?) when played over radio. These mastering choices aren't necessarily recreated on the new Masterworks reissues, hence the differences.

Edited by ShowsOn
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