JSngry Posted December 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Not trying to convince anybody to like something they don't like, just telling you why I like it and that I don't hear it as being in the least bit "sickly sweet". Your milage can and will vary, which is how it should be. Some folks can endlessly wax rhapsodic over Bill Evans. I can't. I don't dig that much of his work that much. But I don't think that anybody who does is trying to convince me of anything. They're just REALLY digging something and sharing their enthusiasm. Go for it, I say! Same thing goes for anything else I say - I like everything here, and will tell you why as explicitly and as enthusiastically as I see fit, but only as an expression of my own opinion. Nothing more at all! Now get in line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 (edited) appreciate your opinion, was just fishing for something more on the strings thing (as others were it seems). I mean, it's some sort of a common opinion that strings sorta suck. So why is that and why do you think they don't (necessarily). Maybe fodder for an own thread. (what line? that brightly coloured one that goes all wobbly?) Edited December 23, 2003 by couw Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 will tell you why as explicitly and as enthusiastically as I see fit, but only as an expression of my own opinion. Nothing more at all! That's what makes this board great! A lot of passion, people unafraid to express it, but very little bickering/anger over differences in these areas... (instead, just a deep sense of pity Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Al Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 (edited) Now get in line.   This from someone who can't rap whapsodically about Bill Evans. I mean, whattabout "Elsa?" What about Moon Beams? I mean, HONESTLY!!! SET HUT!!! HUT HUT HUT!!! HAT HUP TWO THREE FORE!!! Edited December 23, 2003 by Big Al Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 (edited) I mean, it's some sort of a common opinion that strings sorta suck. So why is that and why do you think they don't (necessarily). Depends on who you talk to as to what the "common opinion" is, I think. But for sure, there's been a WHOLE lot of lowest common denominator, banal writing for strings in pop and jazz music, quite often done with extememely rudamental, crude even, orchestrative techniques, and I think that a lot of people have a Pavlovian reflex of sorts whenever they hear them, and automatically recoil in horror. I know that I used to. How I got over it, I can't really say, except that it seems to have, in retrospect, coincided with falling in love, getting married, and exploring sex as something other than a sport. Not trying to be funny here, that's really how it seems to have happened. My marriage has not been a sea of endless bliss, and I think that some of the emotional bumps and bruises along the way opened me up to different "vibrational" levels, of which strings seem to have been included. But only when they're done by somebody who really knows what they're doing. I cringe as much as anybody at the tear-jerker manipulative bathos or the preschool playground giddiness of so much of what passes for string writing outside the "classical" realm. But I have come to really feel good string writing, and now actively look out for albums with certain arrangers involved. I like the sound, the texture, and the different "density" that they provide to music. Certainly don't want a steady diet of it, but it goes down smooth and satisfies deeply when I'm in the mood for it. Again, this is just me. Edited December 23, 2003 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 hell, I just got married (talk about getting in line...), there must be a whole world waiting for me out there. Anyhow, I'll just repeat, for me it's in the sound of the (hollywood) strings moreso than anywhere else. Just an observation to help the world better understand itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 I looked up that AEC disk (hey, one I got right without ever hearing it!) and it seems available only from Charly and from Sunspots. Now I have read several bad opinions on both of those: they seem vinyl dubs and don't sound too good at that. I also came across a listing of the album on the Varese Sarabande label that has a couple of bonus tracks. In short: what's the best currently available source for this music? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDK Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Couw, this is the version to get. While it may be on Charley, it's also on Fuel/Universal... http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&u...l=A7i0qoatalijv I'm terribly embarrassed about missing this one. I actually have the disc, but failed to recognize it, even (at first) as an AEC tune. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
couw Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 thanks RDK, anyone know what's up with these bonus tracks on the Varese Sarabande issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 23, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Not me, I've got an old Affinity LP of that one. Answers to the rest of Disc One now posted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockefeller center Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 (edited) thanks RDK, anyone know what's up with these bonus tracks on the Varese Sarabande issue? AEC discography: http://www.geocities.com/BourbonStreet/Delta/8835/art.html I have the Fuel/Universal disc. Not having another release, I have no comparison re quality. Edited December 23, 2003 by rockefeller center Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim R Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 1-12. Still not my thing, but I must say an educational experience- especially now that we have Jim's analysis. Another one I'll have to go back and re-examine. 1-13. Picked out Zoot, and was close on the date of recording, but Benny G didn't even occur to me. I KNEW that altoist (Woods) was a bopper at heart! It will be interesting to go back and listen to this again closely, now knowing the circumstances and history. Thanks for the insights, JS! 1-14. Well, I missed everything but the song title (and the fact that the rhythm section was really happening... duh ). This is an album I remember passing up on many occasions, thinking I would buy it eventually. I never did. So much jazz, so little time (and $). 1-15. Hines! Well, ain't that FINE... and DANDY! B) I was right regarding Hampton, and also (I guess) regarding the fact that this was a later session (later than the heyday of these artists and this style, that is... BTW, when WAS this recorded?). I also knew that something was up with those fours (a curveball I couldn't quite hit)! In my tradition of studying the history of jazz bassackwards, I've only relatively recently paid much attention to Earl Hines. This is a great example of why it's great to have so many artists (young and old, living and dead) to keep on "discovering". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 Is it Chico Hamilton with Perkins, Hall and Lewis.... - he is so much alike to Papa Jo when trading fours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 How I got over it, I can't really say, except that it seems to have, in retrospect, coincided with falling in love, getting married, and exploring sex as something other than a sport. Not trying to be funny here, that's really how it seems to have happened. My marriage has not been a sea of endless bliss, and I think that some of the emotional bumps and bruises along the way opened me up to different "vibrational" levels, of which strings seem to have been included. But only when they're done by somebody who really knows what they're doing. I cringe as much as anybody at the tear-jerker manipulative bathos or the preschool playground giddiness of so much of what passes for string writing outside the "classical" realm. But I have come to really feel good string writing, and now actively look out for albums with certain arrangers involved. I like the sound, the texture, and the different "density" that they provide to music. Certainly don't want a steady diet of it, but it goes down smooth and satisfies deeply when I'm in the mood for it. Again, this is just me. It isn't just you Jim, I have to disagree with you on that ... I agree on your observations about sex and marriage and accumulating experience, and see a parallel between these processes in life and in music - I mean, listening to your fellow musicians is just as essential as listening to your wife ... You have to listen closely, and again and again, and maybe some day you will get it (or get in line ), but only after listening and even trying to appreciate things you don't like on first listen - but I think that's what divides a musician from a fan. (No depriciation of fandom intended.) I can communicate observations like these about Riddle's arranging skills to (some of) my fellow musicians, but my friends just won't get it. To get to the point, although I kind of dislike Sinatra's voice, what Sinatra/Riddle compilation would you recommend to me, Jim? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 23, 2003 Report Share Posted December 23, 2003 And Chico? Ah, Chico! I have to disagree with Mike about this one ? I think that Chico is having a big grin with those first fills of his, kinda saying, ?Hey, c?mon guys, this is TOO loose. Let?s tighten up a bit and get in line?, knowing full well that the whole thing is riding on a very rare cloud of relaxed swing. My high school band director used to call this bag of Chico's "swatting flies", and he meant it affectionately. That fill where he just STOPS, leaves a big hole, and then ever so quietly sneaks back in only to end in a big THWACK! still brings an audible smile to my mind, as does his mock soft-shoe later on. I should have formulated my criticism more precisely - I see it much the same way you do, but still wouldn't have played it that way. Too little elegance in that attention-catching first drum break. When I imagine the way Mel Lewis would have handled this ... but I gues a young Chico HAD to play it that way. And from the third break on everything is just great - he just had to release some ... err pressure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 (edited) To get to the point, although I kind of dislike Sinatra's voice, what Sinatra/Riddle compilation would you recommend to me, Jim?  For me, the masterpiece is ONLY THE LONELY, in my opinion the crowning artistic achievement of both Sinatra's & Riddle's careers. Lots of people go for IN THE WEE SMALL HOURS, but to me, Sinatra doesn't have the depth of interpretation there that he does on the later, much darker, album. Riddle's work, though is excellent. For the uptempo stuff, I guess you got to go for SONGS FOR SWINGING LOVERS, although it takes a few songs for that one to really get going for me. Once it does though, it's really good. Besides, Joe Comfort really kicks ass on that one, laying down bass grooves that just won't quit. Simple, yeah, but if it were really that simple, we'd live in a much better world than we do now. A cuppla imperfect "sleepers" are MOONLIGHT SINATRA, which has some really interesting writing, as well as some that's a bit bloated. But the harmonies Riddle uses on "Moonlight Serenade" are pretty darn out! Also, the STRANGERS IN THE NIGHT album, in spite of a dud or three, has some really badass writing for regular big band. "On A Clear Day" in particular simmers to a veeeeeery slow boil, and I like that! And I really do recommend the Clooney album, if only for "Invitation". Maybe that's the one I should have included. But the one I chose quite frequently moves me to tears, so there it is. Edited December 24, 2003 by JSngry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Just two short comments, as I'm tired: I'm surprised that I was able to pick up on Rosemary Clooney's voice. I haven't heard many of her recordings, especially those recorded since she was a regular on the pop charts, and I was a child. That might say something about my ears, but I think that it says more about the fact that she has (had) a more distinctive sound than she may be given credit for. I was thrown for a bit by the depth of the song. I hadn't associated Ms. Clooney with that type of material. I think I'll have to do some more listening on her, and it sounds like the album Jim chose this cut from may be a good place to start. The Monk cut was probably my favorite on the two test CDs. I'm amazed that two relatively unknown (hell, you might as well say totally unknown - except to perhaps Jim and their friends and families) could do something like this. I have no idea where to find this recording, but I'm going to do my best to seek it out. I don't even care what the rest of it is like, it's worth it just for this one cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 24, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Posting of answers resumes Friday. Discussion still welcome. Happy, safe, and peaceful holidays to all. I appreciate all y'all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
king ubu Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 SONGS FOR SWINGIN' LOVERS might be my favorite Sinatra! A hell of a set! Good tunes, too. And dig the trombone on - shit I always forget the names of the tunes... I will check out ONLY THE LONELY. I do have (and like) IN THE WEE SMALL HOURS. The Basie/Sinatra self titled studio album also has a couple of good cuts, but playing time is too short, and there's some rather weak stuff there, too (as is on AT THE SANDS, which has a killer first five tunes, nevertheless - love that version of "I've got a crush on you"!) ********* Jim, there sure are interesting things on your discs! Nice I was able to hear Silver, otherwise, much unknown territory to me, but the Monk duo, and the Perkins sure want me hear more of it! I LOOOVE Chico, by the way! (However I'm not really able to take part in the drummer's talk...) I'll read the answers again more carefully when I find the time, and may post some more. By the way: who da fuck is on that ts/b/d trio track on disc 2? bring it on, bring it on! ubu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desertblues Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Thanks for the translation of track 9 on disc 1-I really thought this could be Bongo Joe whose big "hit" ("I Wish I Could Sing") is on the incredible Arhoolie Records box set. Joe does a drum & rap thing in a primitive manner very much like the Ronald Shannon Jackson cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mmilovan Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Speaking of Pres folowers: anyone noticed strong connection between the way Perkins and Eager listened to Pres? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 24, 2003 Report Share Posted December 24, 2003 Thanks for the recommendations Jim - I really appreciate that. Have a nice and peaceful time! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 Answers begun for Disc Two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSngry Posted December 26, 2003 Author Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 More answers added for Disc two. The end is near! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeweil Posted December 26, 2003 Report Share Posted December 26, 2003 (edited) So you've fooled me (and probably all of us) completely with that Hadley Caliman track! I've always liked his energetic approach, e.g. on the Luis Gasca Blue Thumb LP, but never had a chance to listen to that one, otherwise I would have bought and kept it! This is a lesson in that there are many players as great as those in the spotlight - Bayété, Leary and Sonship Theus easily compare to Corea/Holland/deJohnette! I got the Clare Fischer and Braxton Orchestras right, and it kind of moves me that again there is a striking similarity between our adolescent listening experiences - Thesaurus was my first encounter with Warne Marsh, too. I know almost every note on this LP by heart. I guess about nobody over here in Europe got the "tribute" etc. elements in the Bley/Swallow record ... Willis played acoustic piano on all these albums, Carla NEVER did, she handled organ and synth. Saw this band live, but without Willis shortly before they started the duo thing ..... B) That Wein All Stars track is nice, and the attitude of that is not too far removed from the WGJB that I took it for - these were bands that gave exposure to these masters when their playing styles were considered "out". What can I say but: an excellent BT!!!!! Edited December 27, 2003 by mikeweil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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