BERIGAN Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 If you are going to use conduct as a criterion then Ty Cobb would have never made it into the hall-vicious,nasty racist old bastard. Even so I don't think Pete Rose should be let into the hall. He reminds me of the old Nazis who's only regrets were losing the war and getting caught afterwards. If Rose does get into the hall there should be a provision that he can never ever participate in baseball again. Forget Ty Cobb. Kenesaw Mountain Landis is in there, and he denied Black players the opportunity to play in the major leagues for as long as he was commisioner. If he belongs, why not Pete Rose? That's the cynical side of me speaking. Another part of me thinks that the Baseball Hall of Fame means something to people (including me), and that a bum like Pete Rose doesn't belong there. You can make as good an argument for Shoeless Joe Jackson to be in the Hall of Fame as you can for Pete Rose. Man, Ty Cobb might have even shot a black guy, he clearly had mental problems....Cap Anson, with some help from other bigots stopped blacks and Native Americans from playing, even though they had been playing for years. And you already spoke of Kennesaw Mountain Landis . Yet there is no movement to get them thrown out. So Pete bet on his team to win. So what??? Managers who didn't have a dime on a game, have overused pitchers, not given guys days off when they really needed it, because of their burning desire to win....you don't have to bet on your team to push too hard I guess everyone her is a choir boy, and never speeds, jaywalks, underreports income, or God forbid, bet on a football game. That IS illegal you know! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 For the few who think that Rose should be forgiven, consider this, from Tom Boswell's Washington Post column: Before fans grant their forgiveness, or Commissioner Bud Selig decides whether Rose should be reinstated to the sport, perhaps we should listen to a story told by former commissioner Fay Vincent. When Rose was a player, he went to Japan, signed a bat endorsement contract, collected $100,000 in cash and put it in a suitcase so he could sneak it through customs without paying U.S. taxes. Rose was caught, but the story never got out and no charges were filed. A few years later, Rose's bat contract expired. He went back to Japan, got another $100,000 in cash, put it in a suitcase (maybe the same one) and tried to get it through customs. Again. "Bzzzzz," said Vincent yesterday, imitating the sound of a buzzer going off. "They caught Rose again. Now the feds were really livid -- a two-time loser. They wanted to indict him. But he had a good lawyer who got him off. Nobody found out. Nothing happened to Rose. Those are facts. You can quote me. "So, when you look at Rose today, you have to realize we're at fault, too. We teach great athletes their whole lives that they are above the law. We create the monster, then we have to go out and deal with it." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmirBagachelles Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Faye: Do the owners get a W-2 for all the free food, booze, and luxury suites they and their fat friends consume over the course of many seasons? I'm sure you are a good guy and all, but you were a major stooge for a major group of a$$holes for few years. We know Pete is a scumbag, but don't give us the condescending lines about "we". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted January 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 (edited) the two elected into the hof had their own problems eck with booze moliter with the nose candy i want fernando valenzuela into the burrito eating hall of fame Edited January 7, 2004 by Soulstation1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 What you are refusing to recognize is that gambling is a completely different problem when it comes to baseball because of its past destructive force. On top of which, even accepting your supposed equivalence between gambling on baseball and drug or alcohol addiction, Eck and Molitor overcame those problems. There's no indication whatsoever that Rose has. If Rose spent the next 30 years of his life lecturing kids, college players, minor leaguers and major leaguers on why gambling on baseball is not allowed, then, when he is a doddering old man about to join Ted Williams in a vat of Liquid Nitrogen, I still wouldn't let him into the Hall. If they do let him, I hope not a single current member shows up for the ceremony. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted January 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 i don't believe i've refused to recognize anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 You're trying to compare alcohol abuse to betting on baseball. There are signs in every clubhouse about betting on baseball. There are no signs about drinking yourself stupid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted January 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 where exactly did i compare drinking/drugs to gambling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 the two elected into the hof had their own problems eck with booze moliter with the nose candy Um, right here? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soulstation1 Posted January 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 i don't see anything about gambling or even the word in that post? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Gould Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 OK, then, what was your point? Were you responding to Berigan's post about the shortcomings of other members of the Hall? And if so, what was the point? If I've tarred you with the brush of favoring Rose's induction and you don't, then I apologize. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 No question about it: betting holds its own rules as far as the HOF is concerned. Pete Rose should never be allowed in for betting on baseball. Human have their foibles and weaknesses: they drink, do drugs, commit crimes. Still, as far as the HOF is concerned, that's a different category than betting. Betting is the big NO-NO. Pete Rose should never be allowed in no matter what he does or says from here on out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacman Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Forget Ty Cobb. Kenesaw Mountain Landis is in there, and he denied Black players the opportunity to play in the major leagues for as long as he was commisioner. most players and the public didn't want black players in the Majors either. racism was alive and well then, (still is) in America. If he belongs, why not Pete Rose he didn't bet on baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Forget Ty Cobb. Kenesaw Mountain Landis is in there, and he denied Black players the opportunity to play in the major leagues for as long as he was commisioner. most players and the public didn't want black players in the Majors either. racism was alive and well then, (still is) in America. If he belongs, why not Pete Rose he didn't bet on baseball. My point was that racism (and those who enforced it) should not be a part of the Hall of Fame. The Black players from the Negro Leagues who are in the Hall of Fame are there in spite of Kenesaw Mountain Landis. Just because Kenesaw Mountain Landis never bet on baseball doen't make him worthy of being a member of the Hall of Fame. He and Rose are both dirtbags, but you can make the argument (I made it sacastically, if you read my entire post) that if one was admitted, so should the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Forget Ty Cobb. Kenesaw Mountain Landis is in there, and he denied Black players the opportunity to play in the major leagues for as long as he was commisioner. most players and the public didn't want black players in the Majors either. racism was alive and well then, (still is) in America. If he belongs, why not Pete Rose he didn't bet on baseball. My point was that racism (and those who enforced it) should not be a part of the Hall of Fame. The Black players from the Negro Leagues who are in the Hall of Fame are there in spite of Kenesaw Mountain Landis. Just because Kenesaw Mountain Landis never bet on baseball doen't make him worthy of being a member of the Hall of Fame. He and Rose are both dirtbags, but you can make the argument (I made it sacastically, if you read my entire post) that if one was admitted, so should the other. I don't know anything about the players/coaches you mention here, Paul, but I normally have an issue about judging people in history by today's moral standards. This is not meant to justify past deeds, but some leeway has to be given as a result of the prevailing zeitgeist. Not everyone was a moral visionary. Some were downright reactionary, but it is just too easy to condemn historical figures based on today's morality. It's an easy trap to fall into. Let's be fair about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PHILLYQ Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 You also have to be careful of the 'If so-and-so is in the HOF, then so should a similarly situated player/manager/etc.' I believe Bill James pointed out the fallacy of that argument in a book about the HOF. Some of the people in the HOF really should never have been voted in, and to vote in similar players only exacerbates the original problem. Pete Rose knew the rules, knew it was the baseball equivalent of the 'death penalty' and STILL bet on baseball. He even bet on games he was managing! Then, he lied about it for 14 years. Now he comes clean, no apology, and he wants reinstatement and election to the HOF?! WHAT CHUTZPAH!!! He should only be let into the HOF with a paid admission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brad Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 I know that some present members had their foibles or problems but to go back and start picking this one or that one for what they did is not only a road you don't want to go down but one unlikely to happen. Who decides what the appropriate standards are. Anyway, there's an extreme difference between a person having a problem that in reality only affects themselves (alcoholism, drugs) and one that can affect the game itself. When you're betting on baseball, it's not that far away to taking actions that will affect a particular game you're playing that day. The BlackSox scandal almost ruined the sport. That is why gambling is the one thing you cannot do in the sport or any sport and why it's prominently posted in each clubhouse. It can affect the very essence, the fabric of the game, the public's belief that every game is played fairly and that every player is doing his utmost to help his team and not others. And that is why Pete Rose should not be allowed. He broke the one rule you're not supposed to break. He broke that rule and continued to lie about it. He shouldn't be allowed back into the game, let alone it's shrine, the Hall of Fame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul secor Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Forget Ty Cobb. Kenesaw Mountain Landis is in there, and he denied Black players the opportunity to play in the major leagues for as long as he was commisioner. most players and the public didn't want black players in the Majors either. racism was alive and well then, (still is) in America. If he belongs, why not Pete Rose he didn't bet on baseball. My point was that racism (and those who enforced it) should not be a part of the Hall of Fame. The Black players from the Negro Leagues who are in the Hall of Fame are there in spite of Kenesaw Mountain Landis. Just because Kenesaw Mountain Landis never bet on baseball doen't make him worthy of being a member of the Hall of Fame. He and Rose are both dirtbags, but you can make the argument (I made it sacastically, if you read my entire post) that if one was admitted, so should the other. I don't know anything about the players/coaches you mention here, Paul, but I normally have an issue about judging people in history by today's moral standards. This is not meant to justify past deeds, but some leeway has to be given as a result of the prevailing zeitgeist. Not everyone was a moral visionary. Some were downright reactionary, but it is just too easy to condemn historical figures based on today's morality. It's an easy trap to fall into. Let's be fair about this. I don't want to make this an ongoing thing. My original post made it clear that I think that the Baseball Hall of Fame is a place that's important (almost sacred) to me. Pete Rose should be banned (unless he wants to pay admission and come as a visitor). I think that it's a disgrace that Landis is in the Hall of Fame. I don't care about standards of morality during a time period. There are accounts that there were people associated with baseball who wanted to allow Blacks in the major leagues (for varying reasons) and Landis fought them to his end. I don't feel that he belongs in the Hall. That's all I have to say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 [i don't want to make this an ongoing thing. My original post made it clear that I think that the Baseball Hall of Fame is a place that's important (almost sacred) to me. Pete Rose should be banned (unless he wants to pay admission and come as a visitor). I think that it's a disgrace that Landis is in the Hall of Fame. I don't care about standards of morality during a time period. There are accounts that there were people associated with baseball who wanted to allow Blacks in the major leagues (for varying reasons) and Landis fought them to his end. I don't feel that he belongs in the Hall. That's all I have to say. That's fair enough then, Paul. Unfortunately, I cannot say more because I don't know anything about Mr. Landis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Pete Rose should be banned (unless he wants to pay admission That would be great! Let's post his baseball stats in the HOF, but he and his family have to pay admission in order to see them. That would teach him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jacman Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 My point was that racism (and those who enforced it) should not be a part of the Hall of Fame. The Black players from the Negro Leagues who are in the Hall of Fame are there in spite of Kenesaw Mountain Landis. Just because Kenesaw Mountain Landis never bet on baseball doen't make him worthy of being a member of the Hall of Fame. He and Rose are both dirtbags, but you can make the argument (I made it sacastically, if you read my entire post) that if one was admitted, so should the other. sorry, my bad. i agree....nothing we can do about guys like Cobb or Landis now though. but i don't feel just because other ass-wipes are in the BHOF, Rose should get a pass on the gambling. Shoeless Joe, too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Wheel Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Why don't we make it interesting and flip a coin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris olivarez Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Why don't we make it interesting and flip a coin? Or maybe make a friendly wager. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost of miles Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 F#@%in' A, man, this gent just does not get it! Rose sees no reason to quit gambling By JOE KAY, AP Sports Writer January 10, 2004 CINCINNATI (AP) -- Pete Rose sees no reason to quit gambling. In his latest autobiography and accompanying interviews this week, baseball's hits king says he's still wagering at race tracks, but insists that his gambling isn't a problem and shouldn't be a concern. Former baseball commissioner Fay Vincent said Friday there's no way that commissioner Bud Selig can reinstate Rose if he's still placing bets. ``I think that would be a suicidal step for baseball,'' Vincent said. ``I think it would be critically important to make sure from someone professional that he would be able to control his impulses. I think it's unlikely Bud will ever reinstate him to manage.'' Rose ended 14 years of denials and confessed in ``My Prison Without Bars'' that he bet on Cincinnati Reds games while he was their manager. He acknowledged that he let his gambling get out of hand. An expert doubts that Rose has cured himself. ``It certainly can happen,'' said Keith Whyte, executive director of the National Council on Problem Gambling. ``It's probably a little more prevalent than the Immaculate Conception, but not a lot.'' Barbara Pinzka, who was Rose's adviser and spokeswoman in 1989, was stunned to see Rose petting a race horse and talking about his visits to the track in a nationally televised interview the previous night. ``Seeing those pictures of him with the horse and having him say he's still betting at the track and that was OK, that just cemented the door against him getting back in baseball,'' Pinzka said. ``He clearly doesn't understand that he has a problem.'' Betting at the track is still important for Rose. In an interview with The Associated Press, he was asked whether he's willing to stay away from tracks and casinos if baseball made it a condition for reinstatement. ``I would do anything they say, but they have to understand -- I'm not telling them what to do -- but they also have to understand one of my means of entertainment is periodically going to the races,'' Rose said. Associates urged him over the years to stop gambling completely to improve his chances of reinstatement, but he resisted. In the autobiography, Rose said, ``I still enjoy gambling at the race track, which has always been my favorite pastime.'' After Rose accepted the lifetime ban in 1989, his lawyer ordered him to get treatment. Rose met a few times with Dr. James Hillard, currently chairman of the department of psychiatry at the University of Cincinnati. ``Pete and I have concluded that he does, in fact, suffer from a clinically significant gambling disorder,'' Hillard said, in a statement released by Rose's advisers at the time. ``He has concluded that he is powerless before gambling, that he will begin an ongoing treatment program and that he can never gamble on anything again.'' Pinzka said she and others worked for Rose on the condition that he continued seeing a psychiatrist. He also went to several Gamblers Anonymous meetings. AP - Jan 5, 6:05 pm EST More Photos After Rose completed his jail sentence for tax crimes in 1991, he talked about how he had little in common with other gamblers and regretted saying he had a problem. Hillard's diagnosis isn't mentioned in the autobiography, and his name is misspelled throughout. Hillard declined to comment, citing doctor-patient confidentiality. Also Friday, Rose balked at apologizing to those whom he has attacked over the years for saying he bet on baseball. Asked on ``Good Morning America'' whether he owes an apology to Vincent and baseball investigator John Dowd, Rose said emphatically that he did not. Dowd uncovered evidence that Rose had bet on baseball. ``I don't think it was fair, the way he came to his conclusions,'' Rose said. ``The end result -- he was right. But I just didn't like the way he went about it.'' Vincent didn't have a problem with that, saying: ``He doesn't owe me an apology. He doesn't owe me anything.'' AP Sports Writer Ronald Blum in New York contributed to this story. How do you spell D-E-N-I-A-L? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
connoisseur series500 Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 How do you spell A-S-S-H-O-L-E? In fact, the HOF should fix a sign outside: "No Pete Rose allowed!" He sees nothing morally wrong with what he's done and actually blames others for being unsympathetic and cold. I agree with his teammate Joe Morgan who feels Pete has shown no remorse whatsoever. Kudos to Morgan for having the courage to be honest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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