How much to mail LPs overseas?

[AmirBagachelles]

I just made my first sale on discogs.com to a guy in Berlin. I have no idea how to realistically estimate mail costs around the world. Any good benchmarks to use? I won't eat mailing costs and I said so in my profile, but it would be good to be able to quote within a few bucks. I want a to collect a signature on anything more than $20. Thanks, Dan

[Big Beat Steve]

I've bought vinyl fairly often from the U.S. in the early to mid-2000s (but much less so since), and a going rate for a DECENTLY packaged LP was approx. §11 to 12 AIRMAIL per single LP in a mailer. So this is what you would have to look at as a VERY MINIMUM, given that rates still seem to be weight-sensitive and that no doubt the rates have gone up quite a bit with your USPS. Which is why my enthusiasm about buying vinyl through eBay has cooled off quite a bit since, BTW.

I would also suggest that - just to get an idea - you check out the usual suspects among vinyl sellers on ebay.com and see what they state as overseas airmail rates in their item descriptions.

What do you mean you want to "collect a signature"? If this means that you want to ship by registered mail only then be prepared for a significant inflation of your rates.

Good luck, but be prepared for some discussions because you would have to make it clear to your overseas customers that it is not you who is (potentially) ripping them off with your shipping rates but your USPS.

[paul secor]

Go here for usps overseas rates.

[Stefan Wood]

Postal rates recently changed, not really announced. To Germany you should ask $12 airmail for 1 lp. Signature confirmation drives up the cost considerably -- the last I looked it was double the amount. And never, EVER ship to Italy. Their mail system is so corrupt and/or inefficient there is little guarantee it will be delivered safely. I lost an Andrew Hill Mosaic when shipped to a buyer in Italy a couple of years ago.

[clifford_thornton]

To/from Italy and France I always ship registered and have never had a problem.

Germany has been fine; only "lost" one thing and was pretty sure the guy was trying to rip me off.

[mjazzg]

I've bought a fair few vinyl shipped to UK from US in the last year from ebay, discogs, netsounds

Interestingly the advertised postage rates on these sites do vary from about $12 to $18 (don't tend to buy those ones). Never quite worked out why the variation as they all arrive in similar packaging and I'm assuming there's no regional variation for US sources. I've always assumed the more expensive sellers are making some money off their postage.

All these prices are not 'signed for'. I've lost only one package (CDs) in probably hundreds that have crossed the pond to UK.

[AmirBagachelles]

Canadian guy just told me that he is only willing to pay $4-5 mailing cost for a double CD. I told him I need $12 to send it Priority. Moving on.

[clifford_thornton]

Yeah, sending to/from Canada hasn't been as cheap the last few years.

[AmirBagachelles]

I have to say, after less than a week of some intensive selling on Ebay, that the buy side needs some manners. Charge for all your mailing costs I say, because abuse / multi-reaming by eBay, buyer, bidder, watcher is the status quo.

[Dave Garrett]

I've been on both sides of the eBay fence, and quite frankly there's plenty of bad behavior on the seller side as well. Wildly misrepresenting the condition of used items and gouging on shipping fees are the most common, although eBay has really tried to rein in the latter (and has arguably swung the pendulum too far in the other direction, so everyone suffers as a result of the actions of the most egregious offenders).

But yeah, there's no shortage of asshole, bottom-feeding buyers who expect something for nothing and throw a fit when they're called on it.

[clifford_thornton]

I've found just a small handful of sellers on eBay who can accurately grade an LP.

[AllenLowe]

the last time I priced out shipping an LP to Australia, the cost was something like $20 - yow.

[Big Beat Steve]

I have to say, after less than a week of some intensive selling on Ebay, that the buy side needs some manners. Charge for all your mailing costs I say, because abuse / multi-reaming by eBay, buyer, bidder, watcher is the status quo.

I've been on both sides of the eBay fence, and quite frankly there's plenty of bad behavior on the seller side as well. Wildly misrepresenting the condition of used items and gouging on shipping fees are the most common, although eBay has really tried to rein in the latter (and has arguably swung the pendulum too far in the other direction, so everyone suffers as a result of the actions of the most egregious offenders).

But yeah, there's no shortage of asshole, bottom-feeding buyers who expect something for nothing and throw a fit when they're called on it.

What Dave says ...

Buyers who say they would be willing to pay only so much for shipping IMHO are just full of you know what ...

Allowing the seller to recover his FULL shipping expenses would only be fair, but NOT more than that, except maybe a $ or so for extra packaging, padding or whatever.

Some sellers really go overboard in what they would charge for "handling" (hey, funny ... I guess nobody would mind receiving their LPs in used SECONDHAND record mailers if this helps reining in shipping costs, and proudly boasting some blurb like "all LPs will be shipped in a BRAND NEW mailer" ... hey, big deal ... especialy if this means shelling out separately). And as long as some sellers are not even afraid of shipping their records in secondhand 12in PIZZA BOXES (!!! happened to me more than once with sellers from the U.S.) there are a lot out there who would need to clean up their act too.

Not to mention those who charge airmail but ship sea freight, those who go wildly overboard in stating shipping prices beyond all reasonable limits and are NOT EVEN WILLING to listening to pleas from buyers (who tend to gain much experience with what shipping rates would be best) to go for the most economical (and tried and tested) airmail rates. Beats me every time, for example (when buying printed matter), how often I have to tell U.S (NOT "domestic only") sellers that they DO have something like Global Priority Flat Rate envelopes which are FAR more cost-efficient than any airmail or weight-sensitive rates. Under what pebble have these fellers all been living all these years, I wonder???

[mjazzg]

I've found just a small handful of sellers on eBay who can accurately grade an LP.

Amen to that. One man's scratch ia another man's itch, I guess

[Tom in RI]

I mailed an lp to Germany about 3 weeks ago at a cost of $13.18. I believe the trip took about 10 days.

[Big Beat Steve]

I mailed an lp to Germany about 3 weeks ago at a cost of $13.18. I believe the trip took about 10 days.

Which sounds quite reasonable to me in every respect, and in keeping with past personal experience.

[Stefan Wood]

I have to say, after less than a week of some intensive selling on Ebay, that the buy side needs some manners. Charge for all your mailing costs I say, because abuse / multi-reaming by eBay, buyer, bidder, watcher is the status quo.

I've been on both sides of the eBay fence, and quite frankly there's plenty of bad behavior on the seller side as well. Wildly misrepresenting the condition of used items and gouging on shipping fees are the most common, although eBay has really tried to rein in the latter (and has arguably swung the pendulum too far in the other direction, so everyone suffers as a result of the actions of the most egregious offenders).

But yeah, there's no shortage of asshole, bottom-feeding buyers who expect something for nothing and throw a fit when they're called on it.

What Dave says ...

Buyers who say they would be willing to pay only so much for shipping IMHO are just full of you know what ...

Allowing the seller to recover his FULL shipping expenses would only be fair, but NOT more than that, except maybe a $ or so for extra packaging, padding or whatever.

Some sellers really go overboard in what they would charge for "handling" (hey, funny ... I guess nobody would mind receiving their LPs in used SECONDHAND record mailers if this helps reining in shipping costs, and proudly boasting some blurb like "all LPs will be shipped in a BRAND NEW mailer" ... hey, big deal ... especialy if this means shelling out separately). And as long as some sellers are not even afraid of shipping their records in secondhand 12in PIZZA BOXES (!!! happened to me more than once with sellers from the U.S.) there are a lot out there who would need to clean up their act too.

Not to mention those who charge airmail but ship sea freight, those who go wildly overboard in stating shipping prices beyond all reasonable limits and are NOT EVEN WILLING to listening to pleas from buyers (who tend to gain much experience with what shipping rates would be best) to go for the most economical (and tried and tested) airmail rates. Beats me every time, for example (when buying printed matter), how often I have to tell U.S (NOT "domestic only") sellers that they DO have something like Global Priority Flat Rate envelopes which are FAR more cost-efficient than any airmail or weight-sensitive rates. Under what pebble have these fellers all been living all these years, I wonder???

US sellers like myself who use the USPS system no longer have the option of surface mail. Been gone for a couple of years now. Re: Global Priority Flat Rate, the box size to fit an lp would make it Large Flat Rate, and cost a minimum of $58.50 - there are no envelopes that fit the the lp, only boxes. I have not looked into the UPS system, however.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Stefan Wood

[Big Beat Steve]

US sellers like myself who use the USPS system no longer have the option of surface mail. Been gone for a couple of years now. Re: Global Priority Flat Rate, the box size to fit an lp would make it Large Flat Rate, and cost a minimum of $58.50 - there are no envelopes that fit the the lp, only boxes. I have not looked into the UPS system, however.

Sure, surface mail is out. Global Priority Flat Rate may well be inefficient for LPs (due to the size of 12in LPS, apart from the fact that these mailers are specifically for printed matter anyway). Agreed too.

My example, however, was just that - an example (there may be other shipping options that are generally overlooked for specific shipping needs too).

Imagine wanting to buy several of those period record catalogs or other record-related printed items and then having to go to the greatest pains to explain to the seller (who after all offers worldwide shipping) that there ACTUALLY IS such a thing as Global Priority Flat Rate in his very own country. Quite galling, I can tell you ... (especially if you run into somebody who does not take too kindly to being told - even in the politest of words - by a "furriner" what is right in front of his doorstep). And this despite the fact that offering really good, economical overseas shipping rates should be a BOOST to his own (international) business and therefore in his very own interest, isn't it?

[AmirBagachelles]

If I clearly disclose all fees, high or low, or what S&H could cost and what I want up front (against a subsequent rebate), then I don't see any reason for a buyer to complain or challenge me. That's pretty much the way I do it now. If it's a hassle going to an NYC post office, or to mail overseas, then I want to be covered for that. That's why it's called disclosure. And the fact that in many cases the Buyer is getting something that is hard to come by, I just don't get the sense of entitlement to bitch. I have heard that many of these Buyers grew from petri dishes and were methodically trained in their formative years at record fairs.

[Big Beat Steve]

Please bear with me for getting back to you once more about this, but there are SEVERAL sides to this matter.

I have done a lot of buying through eBay (including from the USA) and other onine mail order services and am doing a fair bit of shipping to other countries in another field of private hobby (though NEVER through eBay) so I do feel concerned by all this and I do think I can fairly see BOTH sides.

I agree that haggling by the buyer usually is a no-no (see below why I stress "usually") if the seller actually makes it clear BEFOREHAND what the shipping EXACTLY will be.

However, your statements leave me doubting on several counts:

1) What do you mean by "what S&H could cost and what I want up front (against a subsequent rebate)"? Don't you give them an EXACT, precise and definitive amount of what you will be invoicing? Why not? Can't be that hard to figure out. And shippping oversize items to some isolated Pacific island or to Inner Manchuria can't the be standard case, after all.

2) True, the buyers may be getting a hard to find item but that's what they are paying the ITEM price for, not any EXTRA outlay beyond the actual and bare, naked shipping costs. They are buying the item at the price of the ITEM (plus regular shipping rates) from you and are not buying (nor are they supposed to be, IMHO) the extra efforts you require to get the item shipped at all. First and foremeost, this is a problem to be assumed by the seller because that is where the problem originates (seeing that other sellers don't seem to have that problem). After all it is not the fault of the buyer. And I would figure any seller keen on actracting business would go out of his way to find ways of offsetting this shipping drawback compared to other sellers more favorably located. I've heard that stuff about "having to queue up separately for overseas shipping" from sellers in the past too (though rarely, very rarely) and find this hard to fathom. In short, blame it on the U.S. Postal Services and the way they still (and for no good reason anymore) seem to be organized as if DOMESTIC shipping services are the hub of the WORLD. In the name of fairness, I can only say that the only way out either is to cover this by some sort of "calculatory mix" (other items may be more straightforward to ship) or decline overseas shipping and selling at all. For better or worse because I assume you know how greedy some overseas buyers may be for some items that won't fetch you nearly as much inside the U.S.

Of course you still can charge whatever handling you want for what you consider to be an extra effort on top of the bare postal rates and the buyers will have to live with that, but don't be surprised at their reactions. It's a tradeoff either way.

3) Besides and as a related matter, as for wanting to being covered for it being a hassle to going to a NYC post office etc., are you in the business of being paid for running errands and will this fact of running errands against payment show up in your income statement? ;) Apart from the fact that the hassle ought to be the same for domestic shipments if the hassle is in getting to the post office at all. Otherwise, see 2) above.

3) As for haggling "usually" being a no-no, and though I don't know of course if this - strictly speaking - applies to you at all, there is a very concrete reason to why people tend to haggle if they have a hunch there is a reason why they ought to: I have seen it more than once that sellers have indicated totally idiotic, over-the-topic shipping rates in their item descriptions that go far, far beyond any margin of, say, 1 or 2 or 3$ added for handling (which I would not even want to haggle about). Classic example: I want to buy a book that isn't even of the coffee-table variety and the item description splurts out shipping costs of something like $36.15 for that single item for European destinations (yes, that "Shipping Calculator" feature is about the dumbest thing they ever introduced on eBay) and you know darn well that one of those Global Priority Flat Rate envelopes (again .... my favorite example because tried and tested for SO MANY items: Who wants weight-sensitive rates if he can have THAT "global" rate?) will get that you you for something like $13.50 or so then - yes, I do take the liberty of asking the seller if there aren't maybe other, much more cost-efficient options. And yes, if the sellers balk at reacting to that in a really cooperative way I also take the liberty of interpeting this as meaning "Don't bother me, I want to rip you off on shipping and want to get rich on shipping overcharges Big Time!" or, at best, as "I couldn't care less about giving good service. Take it or leave it." Again, I certainly would not want to insinuate that anything like that applies to you but potential buyers don't know yet who you are and what they are up against with you either and their inquiries may be motivated by the fact that they have been taken for a ride before. So in a way you will have to make good for what others have screwed up, at least in the way you approach your customers. BTW, I cannot see this is any different all the time with U.S. domestic shippings (some sellers seem to be balking constantly at even considering shipping by media mail, for example, whereas are only too willing to go for that very economical option - which we Europeans envy you for ).

Or is that there are many sellers out there who grew from Petri dishes and were methodically trained strictly in the art of getting rich quick on overcharging shipping?

Sorry for being so outspoken but the subject on hand IMO warrants it. And again, I can see both sides of the story as I have been doing my share of shipping parcels abroad too, and I have had to do some thinking here and there too to keep my shipping costs within reasonable limits in order to be able to keep up with their own domestic rates, and it has been worth the effort every time. Not to mention the fact that many of the items I have shipped were FAR more time-consuming to pack safely than any measly 12in platter to be slipped into a ready-made mailer. And this although I would not consider myself the most philantropic person in the world - I just try to come up with a really fair deal.

[AmirBagachelles]

I usually always rebate to net to exact shipping costs if its a substantial S&H, for a big box etc. That's also in my disclosure. I never know the exact cost until I take it to a post office or UPS. Believe me, I too have been a buyer far more than I have been a seller, and I have never acted in the manner that many Buyers do currently. As a Buyer, it's been years since I have been ripped off on Ebay. (The guy was a member here too.) I am dealing with a guy in the U.K. right now, a total control freak (insists: "jiffy pack", "gift not merchandise", on and on), and I suspect there could be feedback slam coming. He was very chatty via ebay messages until I said I would not submit a phony customs form. Then, silence. So we'll see. I think I prefer Discogs, less formal and pretty smooth there so far. Cheers, Dan

[Big Beat Steve]

I can understand that you would not be willing to underdeclare the value on the customs form, but to the best of my knowledge the "gift not merchandise" thing should not be a problem as I THINK "Merchandise" is a required indication only if the item is being sent by a professional dealer.

The attitude of that fellow may seem strange indeed but somehow I'd sympathize with the "jiffy pack" requirement. If it had happened to you (like it had happened to me) that you a) receive an LP between two THIN slices of polystyrene taped together and b) an LP thrown into a THIN record mailer without ANY padding and in both cases the parcel had been hit at an angle by some other item, thus BREAKING the vinyl of the record packed inside then you'd be dismayed forever too. Not to mention those sellers who skimp on packing material by reusing PIZZA boxes. Which in each case happend with U.S. sellers, BTW. Maybe this U.K. buyer has been through all this too, leading him to think that the risk of some sellers over in your country just not knowing their front from the back (when it comes to diligently preparing items for the LONG overseas trek) is real. He seems to be doing you injustice indeed but, again, "once bitten twice shy". Blame it on those SELLERS who came before you and screwed up things good. It's unfortunate but that's life, I am afraid.

Good luck!