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BLINDFOLD TEST #5 - discussion


couw

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In a thus far unparalleled cross-Atlantic cyber-coordinated effort, and in spite of unexpected problems in Coconut Creek, all blindfold disks went out yesterday. Disks may start arriving at doorsteps from this very moment on, where your eager ears await them (I hope). My guess is you all will want to start spewing your venom or start burying the music in praise right away, so I thought I'd better sound the gong for this first round right now.

Let me have it folks. Give me your ideas, give me your guesses, give me your opinions, just give me a regular blindfold discussion with all the well-informed opinions that go with that.

I selected this music with a theme in mind. For those so inclined this may provide another quest. Be informed though that this theme is rather obvious. It was more of a restriction to me than it will ever be a help for any of you in identifying any of the tracks or players.

There are not many really obscure things in here. I did not make this test to show you the deepest recesses of my collection, but rather wanted to give you a (partial) taste of what I like.

Probably some if not many of you will immediately recognise some if not many of the tracks. I did not hesitate to include music that you will never forget after hearing it once. At least that's the effect it had on me. These tracks and others as well, may be dead give-aways as such. I still hope you enjoy hearing them again. If any ONE person goes APESHIT over ONE track included herein, a track that others skip over 'cause they don't like it or already know it, for the sake of APESHITness of that one person, it's been worth it in my opinion. (Actually I gave this disk to a friend of mine beforehand and he really, really, really wanted to know about one specific track, so I guess I've done okay in that respect already.)

There is some freer stuff on this disk, but I kept away from the free flowing, hard honking, force-blowing, screech laden music of which I know it would put down some people on the receiving side. I chose more in the pocket stuff that hovers along the edge and might thus inspire some of those alluded to above to invest some time and effort into listening with open ears to what to me constitutes one of the most rewarding kinds of music.

To repeat Jim's request: if you know EXACTLY what a cut is, please refrain from revealing it directly. Please post some funny and/or cryptic remarks, AMG links, whatever. DISCUSS the music, whether you know exactly what it is, only know some players, or think you do, or not. Guess, think, compare, and above all make some deep, cool, funny, and unimportant remarks. THAT's the whole ballgame.

Thank you for your time and let the games begin! (click)

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'twas in the mail this morning, gave it a quick runthrough, very nice, especially the last track, but I have no idea .... but there is one saxist on it, at last, that has been mentioned at length in one of the previous BT discussions :g

Thanks a lot, for sure! I knew you'd give me a hard time with your extensive collection of European (?) gems.

Edited by mikeweil
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To repeat Jim's request: if you know EXACTLY what a cut is, please refrain from revealing it directly. Please post some funny and/or cryptic remarks, AMG links, whatever. DISCUSS the music, whether you know exactly what it is, only know some players, or think you do, or not.

Why is this so important, Couw? I never look at other commentary before giving my impressions. Takes all the fun away.

I don't think I've guessed a single track from the two/three blindfold discs I've heard.

Man, if I recognize something, I'll be so overjoyed and full of myself that I would just shout out the title!! :lol:;)

Nah, I'll just sit on it like you request. Buy why?

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Paul,

some people DO read the comments by others before weighing in on their own I've noticed. And then any answer written out large spoils the fun. Further, you may remember the Barney Wilen track that JSngry couldn't figure out. He (and others) had a lot of fun (I think) in finding the correct player and title. I wouldn't want to throw a rod between those spokes. It's just to keep the guessing on as long as possible I guess. Hope this explains.

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The mail came early today and brought Friday joy. Guess the mailman decided driving around at 5 below put some fire under hisass. Thanks to Tom in RI and thankfully the only mad-couw not culled from the heard.

I did a text edit and wrote my guesses and first impressions as it happened. A trully great disc... So far my top three releases from 2004 are just these past couple of blinfold tests. (Why bother going to the store and looking for some salvation in the drivel.)

So here's my response and I can't wait to read the blurbs by the real knowledge base. So we will start at the bottom....

1) "Generique" (can't keep some of these french discs quite right) from here: rhino or cinema. Got on a kick of this guy's stuff a few years back. I only have a few of his discs and have listed the compilations here. I'd love to hear more of his instrumental sides than I have heard. I just can't believe that I knew the first one off of one of these tests. Those jazz and afro cuban Mercury sets are great as well as the JiP:JeC collections. Truthfully I really only dig him cause he makes my nose look small.

2) Sounds like something I should have but don't. Dig it!

3) Boy I like this conga-fied greasey groove and then that sawankeh bari...Now this is something that I gonna go buy. A bit of those Lou D sides w/ Barretto that I love but with a lot more texture. This ain't Ronnie Ross cause it just sounds new to me. Man this cuts already spun twice ...Hoo Baby Couw!!

4) "Tenderly" is my guess after just 00:08... we can do name that tune can't we? Nice bone. Now after a minute and a half it goes Lateefy... this is one of those that you would want to buy if the record store was playing it while you were in there, only to get up to the register and have the guy tell ya that it ain't for sale. Well it's not the song I thought but some kind of groove though. I'm gonna says it's the bassist's date? Man you guys are spinning me around with this BFT thing.

5) I really do know this song but it ain't coming to me... That's what I get for trying to enhance the musical experience during those formative years.

6) Definitely has that "_____ in Paris" feeling to it. Other than that I have no clue. I do like it though.

7) Need to do more listening to all things Parker oriented so I can just whip off this song. More nice bone... I'm not going to just guess and look really foolish here. (edit here: as i skipped out at midpoint and didn't hear the Monk. so much parker in Monk and vv) This one got better after subsequent listenings. A great blend of these two tunes.

8) No idear?

9) Again no clue...I do like this segueability you gots on here. The hefty backbeat sometimes supplanted by the various instruments that conjure the belly of the groove. Now I'll wear my brain on my sleeve cause I don't know whether this is a soprano or a clarinet? Some huge sound from that thing.

10) Gotta be French but sounds a bit too much like William Parker and Leena Conquest. "your fanny's like two sperm whales floating on the seine"?. Maybe one of those live Eremite discs. I love that groove though, but the bombastic seems just because. I might have to cheat now and look this up later. This is a great segue from the previous BTW... Find that I'm forever cursing DJs on jazz radio for putting some lame shit after a great tune or having absolutely no sense of mix. Not here my friend!!!

11) "Hernado's Hide-Away' by some Threadgill-y low key Screamin' Jay Hawkins type. This sounds Chicago.

12) Title cut from here:spitvalve Man I saw him when I was just brought to the east coast at a little theatre at Brown Univ in Providence. (Shortly after seeing Anthony Braxton at the same venue. He of course did not seem so out of place in didactic environs.) That's a great album you got there and some stellar playing from the back stokers. I always loved his work with Bobby Previte and the other downtown boys. Hoy more bone!! Do I sense a trend here with the predominant boning.

13) No idea here but it's nice. Not something I' run out and buy but very nice little soother.

14) "Ask Me Now" .... I'm not a big knower of horns that don't turn up at the bell. So it's too straight for Lacy and the support is playing beautifully. Like the rhythm from the other horn. I almost expected this thing to go into some full blown romp rather than end so quickly. Very nice.

15) "Lover Man" no foolin' us here. These are some straight readings as opposed to Jim's previous hints at them through BFT4. But no idea as to who this solo is by. Guess i don't know much from horns that do turn up at the bell. Great player... sort of Rollins with only one lung.

Man you did good. Ain't throwing this baby back. :tup

Edited by Man with the Golden Arm
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couw, disc arrived, spinning right now - I will type here WHILE listening and I won't read anything in this thread. Thanks in advance!

1. some film soundtrack, second half of the fifties, US-musicians, French movie. No idea what exactly. Maybe some drummer? Is this Blakey? Rather too soft horns. Not Blakey. Like this a lot!

2. Max Roach? That 3/4 album? (never heard it, still got to get the Roach Mosaic) But no, that would not have a trombone. Not Roach anyway, I think. Nice trumpet solo. Art Farmer maybe? No idea, to be honest, but second half of the fifties. Post 1957, I'd say. Like it! (Or could it be from a Roach band with Julian Priester? Yes?)

3. ---

no, repeating 2. guess Roach. Bass almost sounds tuba-like on the themes! And the sax man (though it's hard to judge from the ensemble playing alone) could be George Coleman.

3. Nice work from the drummer here! Very nice - some master brushes player. Good solo entry from tenor. Early sixties (or latest fifties), I guess. Tenor seems familiar. Good solo, great! Drummer gives solid background - conga slightly annoying at times, too even. Who could this be? Charles Davis on bari? Early Davis? Could be Elvin? Hell, I know nothing...

4. Nice intro. Beautiful trombone sound! Nice fat bass. ECM sound? Not really, or very early. Nice groove! Vitous? No. But rather european. I like that bass sound very much, and I think I know the player of that bass, but I can't really come up with an association. The melody fragment backing the alto... all very nice! Like this a lot! The alto has a south african horns vibe to it. That full sound, sure time, singing lines... Great!

5. Wow! Komeda? Know the tune, but not how it's called, but I heard that already! Bernt Rosengren? Definitely european. Scandinavian rhythm players, maybe Rosengren. Great tenor solo! Great! Palle Danielsson? Jon Christensen? Arild Andersen? I don't know these players well enough to make more than guesses! And I might well (I will most probably) be completely wrong... Another one I like very much. Nice composition, this one! Could be a Komeda tune done by some scandinavians.

6. Beautiful tenor. Nice slightly old-school sound. Lucky Thompson? Another drummer good with brushes (hell, I love brushes!!). Five stars! Terrific build up!

7. That's that Parker blues. How's it called? "Au Privave". Then cool trombone, Monk's "Straight No Chaser". Nice one. Good driving big band drumming. Not my favorite, but I like the tenor solo. No idea.

8. Had to listen twice. Beautiful. A standard, but not one I know consciously. One passage of the theme reminds me of some Monk piece. Like this very much!

9. Not my favorite bass sound. Uh, I know this. Not sure of the title of the tune, but sure about the musicians. The bass sound and the rock-like steady beat of the drummer gave it away. I say no more. European, for sure. I got several live broadcasts from these trio.

10. No idea. Good groove. Don't know this singer, at least not in the time this track was made. Nice groove. And nice horns! Reminds me of Shepp's stuff - like that tracks not reissued from "Kwanza" or some of the Attica Big Band live CDs. Cool sax solo! Like it better as it continues!

11. Another great one! Irresistible beginning, with that kind of tango beat. Could this be Max Nagl? I don't have anything he did in trio. Cool!

12. Nice. But no idea what it could be. Like to hear you like the trombone! Another good boneist here.

13. Was... ist... das? Beautiful! Could be one of those hymns by Dollar Brand - I don't know it, but I like it! Alto is too tame to be Carlos Ward, though. Cecil McBee? Glorious!

14. Monk's "Ask Me Now". Beautiful clarinet sound! Nicely scored with the trombone (there we go again!) backing. Beautiful. (You know, I started out on clarinet, and it's always nice to hear a good clarinet player! There ain't that many - hell of a difficult instrument to master!)

15. "Lover Man" (Davis-Ramirez-Sherman). Beautiful!

couw, this is a really nice disc! thanks a lot for your great choice and the work you put into it! :tup

ubu

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Now here's the text file I wrote while listening to this very very interesting disc (thanks a lot, John, lots of new stuff again - if it continues like this, we will save the record industry!)

# 1: Nice overture for the test! The way the piece is composed, the fact that is has no solos makes me think it was for a motion picture, but I don't have too much film music. Trumpet sounds a little like K.D. to these ears. Would like to hear more of it, especially if it uses the flute and bass clarinet (?) that effectively.

# 2: I'm pretty sure this is from (AMG link), the brothers band. Have to get this before it's too late ....

# 3: Bingo! Now here is an exemplary tenor saxophone player (2 nd tenor solo) that I missed in the previous BT, and a very sharp baritone. Had this LP, still have to get the reissue, like it very much, but would have chosen a different track. Could say a lot about this and the bands of # 2 and 3, but I'll wait until later on. Can't wait to read Jsngry's comment on # 3 ... :g

# 4: I'm afraid this is the first of a series of European bands you either know or don't. Trombone reminds me of late 1960's Albert Mangelsdorff, but the saxists do not sound like those I heard play with him. I never bought any of his records because I lived near his hometown and could have seen him live every month. Trombone player is nice, but the others don't do too much for me, bassist sounds too much out of tune to me, drummer is uninspiring.

# 5: Very interesting, both saxists play with very much feeling in a personal style, but I have no idea who this is, like the rhythm better than on # 4.

# 6: My man ........ I liked the sound of an 1980's LP reissue of this session better, was not as bright and mellower in sound. *****

# 7: Oh, I'm too lazy to look up what Parker tune this is ... That trombone player sure swings. Was surprised when they did Monk's Straight No Chaser after his chorus. I'm sure I have something of this tenor player .... The drummer is great, he and the soloists interact a lot, and he has a lot of phrases to chose from, stirs it up from beginning to end. The high not trumpeter was a little sloppy. No idea what band this is, but I'd like to know. Interesting arrangement, but not quite top-notch IMHO.

John hates piano players! ;) Haven't heard any so far ...

# 8: Don't like the bassist's intonation on that one, would have liked to hear the tenor elaborate some more, this leaves me a little dissatisfied.

# 9: Bassist uses some effect. There were many German band using rock or funk rhythms that way. It's nice the drummer sticks to the groove that much, but I've heard others play more interesting variations, he could have interacted more with the bassist. That sax player is nice, has heard his Steve Lacy - again I have no idea who this is.

# 10: I'm kind of prejudiced against that type of music, I probably heard too many groups like this when I started playing music, and their groove never convinced me like the black bands I knew. Can't stand that electric bass sound, slightly out of tune ... Singer is nice, has a good feeling for the beat, better than the horns. I've probably seen some of these live, especially the trumpet player sounds familiar. Now whoever shakes that tambourine, take it away, please! - I'm really prejudiced - use a sexy girl singer and some soul beat, to make the audience listen to the free jazz solos they'd rather play all the time. Don't want to completely diss this, but I never liked that type of thing.

# 11: Now that groove sounds more convincing to me, some weirdo tango. It has the humor I missed in the previous track. Now who's this.

Still no piano player! :g

# 12: Is that Benny Bailey on trumpet? If not, it is someone else I've heard often. The more I listen to this, the more it grows on me. Good soloists. Nice theme, a nice combination of bebop and more advanced stuff. Would like to hear more of this band.

# 13: The mood of this reminds me of "My People" on Stanley Cowell's Strata East LP, Regeneration. Now if they would only play in tune with each other in the theme. The flute player wails a little too much for me, the soprano cat gets the ideas across better for my taste. Like the Hadley Caliman track, Disc 2 # 1 in the 4th BT, this brings a standard tune to mind, can't recall the title right now, but goes off in a different direction. They could have done this more consequently, the flutist's toying around spoils it for me, otherwise the idea and mood of this is very nice. On the other hand, I like it is not as spacey as some ECM discs.

# 14: Don't ask me now for this! (Fantastic album by one the true originals of all of jazz, BTW!) *****

# 15: Lover Man. Very beautiful solo rendition, this is the high point of the disc for me. I bet I'll slap my forehead when I read who this is! This gets a special place in the hall of fame of unaccompanied sax solos. You couldn't have found a better closer! *****

(Sorry that's it's over - where's the 2nd CD? :g)

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Is this a private party or can anyone join in, even us newbies? :rolleyes:

I received my unofficial copy this morning - even as I was sending my email, Couw, it dropped through the letterbox - thank you! It's playing even now and has been an eye-opener. Not sure of anything (ears only) until I came to #8 (danced with joy at success!) which I know very well indeed but won't mention of course.

Still working on the others - with help. This is going to lead to me to places I haven't been before.

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just my two cents:

on #1 my first impression was that its a Gil Evans arranged tune as the melody and the used instruments sounded like a classic composition of him

on #4 the Mangelsdorff trombone came into my mind

on #10 my first thought was: United Jazz&Rock ensemble as the intro and the line-up was pretty much what I expect from them, although the vocals where not familiar what I've heard from them so far

The #14 is one of my last years new entry favorites... so to easy :rolleyes:

at #15 the Lover Man I really got after second or third listening as I'm always linking the catchy tune with a piano... I have this in lot of variations on CD's but its a complete different mood when played as solo sax. On piano its more of an elegant tune

BTW John: where are the piano's on the CD :g as else its perfect compilation and a lot of stuff I will listen to more indepth

Cheers, Tjobbe

@tooter: although newbie too, would not hesitate to join this ;)

Edited by tjobbe
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Blindfold Test #5

Here are my first impressions. I haven't read any other posts, haven't gone searching on the net, nothing. Ears alone. Embarassing but honest!

One thing I know: it's the same pianist throughout.

Some of it I really enjoyed, some I only liked, some I didn't really go for, and some I hated: a nice mix! ;) Thanks, John - I look forward to your comments when it's all over.

1. Nice, if not terribly exciting. No idea, but I'll guess it's Chico Hamilton: the tympani make me think it's the drummer's date, Hamilton often had no piano and somebody on flute, and the arrangement sounds West Coast-ish.

2. I'll guess a Max Roach group. It's good and boppish, sounds like Max, and he was another drummer who liked piano-less ensembles.

3. Ah, more modern. Despite the nice conga/drums/bass groove, this leaves me pretty cold. I hear it as primarily a technical exercise for the saxophonists - they're impressive, but my reaction is "so what?" Despite all the chops I don't get much feeling or melodic juice out of it. It's all expertise and nothing memorable or personal. IMHO. No idea who it is.

4. I like the lovely, pastoral trombone introduction. The feel of the piece is very 60's and it sounds like Charlie Haden on bass. That's as far as I'll go with my guesses. I like it, especially in small doses.

5. A modern two-tenor thing... my first thought was of the album Joe Lovano and Joshua Redman made together, but I dunno. I like it better than number 3, but to be honest I wish they'd hired a piano player!

6. Now there's a tenor player who would kick the ass of just about anybody alive today if he were still playing. Love it. And because I know precisely who and what it is, I'll say no more.

7. Huh. Starts with a bebop standard whose name I don't remember, then goes to Monk. Spunky arrangement, good playing, especially the trombonist, but who is it? And more to the point, why not have a pianist? The more this piano-less blindfold test goes on the more I miss piano!

8. OK. The tenor player's tone is so gorgeous that the lack of piano only sets it off. I love this saxophonist and this tune, which I have two versions of him playing--including this one, so mum's the word.

9. Now here's a piece I really don't like. For one thing, the bassist has such an unpleasant, rubbery sound; for another, that pounding rhythm is so lame. That's enough to make me dislike it. Is that a soprano saxophone or an oboe? Whoever it is can really play whatever it is well, and I guess the contrast between the quick, articulate flood of notes from the reed instrument and the dumb-ass thudding from the bass and drums is supposed to be striking. Yuck.

10. I'm going to guess this is the Art Ensemble of Chicago backing Fontella Bass, the gospel/soul singer who was Lester Bowie's wife. It just seems to fit - the singer's evident experience in the genre, the avant-gardiste horns, the whistles and percussion in the background, the reference to the Champs-Elysées, and the sound of the bass. But I don't really remember what Fontella Bass sounds like, so I could be off base.

11. Another one I can live without. I don't like the playing, the rhythm, or the composition, such as it is. I'm glad it doesn't go on any longer.

12. In this one the virtuoso trombonist steals the show. I like this, but wouldn't necessarily search it out. There's a similar bounciness from the bass and drums in many of the tunes on this test - I don't know if they tend to concentrate on that when there's no piano, or if one just doesn't notice it as much when a piano is playing.

13. Very pretty. I like the way the flute shadows the soprano sax so closely - makes it all the more effective when it bursts out a little more forcefully. Once again, no idea who it could be.

14. Monk's "Ask Me Now." Could this be Pee Wee Russell in the early 60's, when he ventured into some modern jazz? Beautifully done. So relaxed and elegant.

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One thing I know: it's the same pianist throughout.

And more to the point, why not have a pianist? The more this piano-less blindfold test goes on the more I miss piano!

And it's the same guitar player as well!

Contrary to you, Tom, I didn't miss the piano or other stringed instruments (only bass allowed here), found it refreshing and adding some unexpected focus to the selection. Bright idea!

It will be very interesting some day to compare the tastes or selection criteria of all test masters.

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I too thought #1 sounded like Kenny Dorham but #2 brings Booker Little to mind, together with George Coleman which fits with the Max Roach group hypothesis. #3 guess George Coleman again and maybe Pepper Adams.

#8 there's a connection with Miles.

Tiobbe - Good - I am not alone then.

Edited by tooter
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thanks for all the replies thus far and it's good to notice that there some new stuff for people on there, and stuff they like at that!

Wait till I tell you who's on track 5. :tup

The final track is desert island stuff. I'm a bit surprised nobody knows who this is yet. You'll all slap your head again for missing out on the deal of the century on this one I think. :rhappy:

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about the "lack" of piano (and less so, guitar): it took me up to track four or five to even notice there was no piano! So I do not miss it at all. I often find that I love piano-less music very much. Gets an openness that most piano players somehow prevent. Although there are certainly lots of positive aspects of having a piano in a small group, too, and I love many piano players, of course... but it is very interesting to hear a whole disc of not-out-at-all music omitting the piano completely! Good idea, couw!

Yep, found out about "Lover Man", too - but as I still not made it past disc 2 of that huge set I got from zweitausendeins some months ago (almost a year, actually - I sure should cut my CD-expenses...), I had not encountered it before. Beautiful! Some moments reminded me of McLean, but the sound is quite different, all in all.

Would like to know what exactly #6 is! It does seem familiar, but I'm not sure I really have it.

couw, you got my PM on #8? Care to reply? I'm curious!

ubu

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I've just listened through the disc once (except for a few tracks which demaded to be played again), so here are some short comments (without having tried to use the AMG)

1. This sounds very much like a Kenny Dorham thing, allthough the alto flute at the end had a ring of early 70s film music to it. Maybe something Dorham wrote for another band.

2. This sounds a bit European in concept. Could the trombonist be Julian Priester? I liked the trumpeter better, though, who sounds like a cleaned up 60s version of Chet Baker. And, as has been mentioned, the drummer must surely be Max Roach, or...? This sounds like an album I might get soon.

3. I have the box set which contains this track, and it's all very enjoyable. It's very sad that this sax player didn't have the chance to stretch out like this more often. If he did, it didn't get recorded anyway. He's a favorite of mine!

4. Not entirely to my taste. The sax player is pleasingly soft-toned for the context - I had expected more screaming. Well, I can't think of anything more to say about this...

5. A mid 90s recording? Nice playing, perhaps a tad too "cold" to really involve me at first hearing.

6. The sax player really sounds sounds at least one generation older than anyone on the previous cuts (which could go for the bass and drums, too). Especially his vibrato... This is probably someone I "should" know about. At least the sax sounds familiar in some way.

7. This track really had me intrigued! The trombonist clearly has listened to J.J. Johnson - I heard a few signature licks - but he really doesn't sound like J.J. My guess is that both the trombonist and the tenorist are fairly obscure players. It sounds like it was recorded in the late 60s, and by then this kind of soloing wasn't even mainstream any more. Nevertheless it appeals to me, especially the trombone solo was nice. The big band parts are rather rudimentary, but effective in their own way. In the more climactic passages the lowest brass and sax parts are voiced in way that Oliver Nelson favoured, except that his arrangements always had more of a 'Hollywood' vibe to them. I'm really curious about this one!

8. The bass sound is about as much 80s as it could be. Is it recorded in the mid 80s? On a sidenote: I recently realized that I have at least four times more recordings from any decade from the 50s up to the 2000s than I've got recording from the 80s.

9. This track was fun! I could not help smiling when I heard the bass solo, not even the third time I listened to the track! Throughout the cut I keep listening the most to the bassist, but the sax is good too. I didn't think I could enjoy this kind of playing, but apparently I do! Great!

10. Not a clue. The rhythm section sounds like authentic beat players rather than jazz musicians. Not my cup of the, allthough the Rahsaan-type whistles were a bit fun.

11. This made me a bit nervous, allthough I didn't exactly find it off-putting. We'll see if I get to like it more... but I'm not sure about that.

12. As someone said, virtousic trombone playing. But I find it a bit hard to really enjoy it.

13. A nice shift of pace. Interesting to hear once, but I'm not sure I'll return to it soon.

14. This is about as sweet playing I've ever heard! I get the feeling I'm suddenly in a pleasant dream. Exquisitly performed. But perhaps a full album of tunes like this would be too much.

15. I've had trouble getting into solo saxophone playing earlier, but I found it rather easy to sit through this, and even enjoy it. Perhaps it's like piano-less recordings which I once despised, but a few years later it didn't matter at all... by the way, that IS the theme, right?

Edited by Daniel A
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