alocispepraluger102

Former Member bill barton

284 posts in this topic

nice post, agree with you.

I'm in favor of the whole forgiveness thing - I think ultimately it helps both internally and externally - it doesn't mean you don't seek justice or punishment or that you associate with the person who is the object of the forgiveness - I think it means you don't let it consume you to the point of warping your whole world view.

+2

"Forgiveness" of the type under discussion here is not about taking the burden off the perpetrator, it's about ridding yourself of the hate that unresolved anger inevitably becomes.

Now, "classical" "Biblical" forgiveness does indeed involve the perpetrator asking to be forgiven, upon which forgiveness is given, upon which (and this is the part that gets short shrift these days, because it's...difficult)the perpetrator is then obligated to atone for their wrong. And true atonement, that's a bitch.

Although this was composed as an atonement before God for a direct sin, these words from Psalm 51 speak to the object of the game quite clearly, I think, for anybody who has been dirtied by evil, directly or indirectly (which is pretty much everybody who lives):

Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

I thnk that this should be the ideal goal for both perpetrator, victim, and collateral damage all, for what better way to try to go through life than with a clean heart, right spirit, joy, and the reinforcement of spirits both holy and free (even if these spirits are only metaphorical)?

Nothing there about not getting hit by or stepping into some ugly shit, either directly or indirectly, and nothing in there about forgetting any of it. I think it's implicit that we will get hit by shit, and repeatedly. It's all but inevitable. It also follows that if we practice some kind of simple-minded forgive=forget formula that we greatly increase our odds of the shit coming our way faster and more furious than ever.

But this isn't about "prevention", this is about response, how to deal with the aftermath. Let it go, don't let it stay with you forever, get a clean heart & right spirit, and then proceed accordingly until the next time comes along, which inevitably it will. No matter how smart you get from the lessons learned, there will always be new lessons to learn. Just as good is infinite, so is evil.

Nothing in here about it being "instant" or "easy" either. Obviously it's not. But it's a goal, a good goal (imo), and like most anything else, if you believe it to be possible and do indeed want it, you'll direct yourself accordingly according to how much you believe it and how much you want it. And that too gets tricky, because it's easier to say or think what you really believe and what you really want than it is to actually know it.

Life is not without its challenges.

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I talked at some length to someone last night who is a self-described "Cradle Catholic" about this idea of unqualified forgiveness, and their thought was that it rests in large part on the principle of "judge not, that ye be not judged."

I'm not well-versed in the Bible (to put it mildly), but Matthew 7.1 seems to address this:

Judge not, that ye be not judged. The term "judge" is used in more than one sense, but Christ's meaning is plain. (1) He does not prohibit the civil judgment of the courts upon evil doers, for this is approved throughout the whole Bible. (2) He does not prohibit the judgment of the church, through its officers, upon those who walk disorderly, for both he and the apostles have enjoined this. (3) He does not forbid those private judgments that we are compelled to form the wrong-doers, for he himself tells us that we are to judge men by their fruits. (See Mt 7:15-20.) What he designs to prohibit is rash, uncharitable judgments, a fault-finding spirit, a disposition to condemn without examination of charges.

I still lean toward the idea that the sinner bears some responsibility to participate in this whole forgiveness deal if it's going to have any 'tangible' or meaningful benefit to anyone other than the person offering it. ... But maybe that's not the point.

I think I could forgive someone guilty of such crimes if they asked for forgiveness, or if they seemed lost and alone and needed some hope. I think I'd have a lot more trouble with that if they showed no remorse or regret about what they did.

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I still lean toward the idea that the sinner bears some responsibility to participate in this whole forgiveness deal if it's going to have any 'tangible' or meaningful benefit to anyone other than the person offering it. ... But maybe that's not the point.

The sinner gonna do what the sinner gonna do, be it to get right or to stay wrong. That's one thing.

Those of us who get hit by their shit, we got the same choices as the sinner. That's another thing.

Ain't nobody ever "all right", and I don't know that even the darkest souls are "all wrong", so pretty much everything comes down to this what choices do you make?

After that, it's a pinball machine. Don't run out of quarters.

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I still lean toward the idea that the sinner bears some responsibility to participate in this whole forgiveness deal if it's going to have any 'tangible' or meaningful benefit to anyone other than the person offering it. ... But maybe that's not the point.

The sinner gonna do what the sinner gonna do, be it to get right or to stay wrong. That's one thing.

Those of us who get hit by their shit, we got the same choices as the sinner. That's another thing.

Ain't nobody ever "all right", and I don't know that even the darkest souls are "all wrong", so pretty much everything comes down to this what choices do you make?

After that, it's a pinball machine. Don't run out of quarters.

are you a writer, jim?

if you aren't, you need to be.

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Thanks, but this, here, is all the writing I care to do, and sometimes more than I need to do...

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I'm glad there are people that can get comfort from the Bible, and also glad for being left alone by that group.

As for Bill, I have no opinion until the verdict comes down.

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For me this is not about Bill Barton. It is about the possibility of Bill Barton. And the invisibility of it all. It isn't about forgiveness or harboring anger either. I leave that to y'all.

I'm no saint, but I try my damnedest to do right.

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As for Bill, I have no opinion until the verdict comes down.

that opinion would be my choice as well, if i could choose

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For me this is not about Bill Barton. It is about the possibility of Bill Barton. And the invisibility of it all. It isn't about forgiveness or harboring anger either.

Fear of the abstract often turns into anger directed at the concrete, and that anger can eventually turn to hate. It doesn't happen all at once, though, not usually.

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Yeah, I do. It's just that sometimes that first flash of awareness can turn to fear real quick and never look back.

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Not my first chance at being aware, just my most recent. I'm cool. I'm just not an angry person. I've tried it before here and there. It sucked.

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I'm just not an angry person. I've tried it before here and there. It sucked.

My mileage has varied widely on that one, to put it mildly, but in the end...the tank always ends up empty and the nearest gas station is too damn far to walk to.

So I crawl.

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There is now a Wikipedia article on Operation Delego, which has in its footnotes a link to the indictment against blackbart2010. The indictment describes specific instances of files which blackbart2010 added to the offensive board.

The indictment pleading in general provides more detail about what this offensive board was all about.

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don't get all this...

Edited by Niko

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sick stuff man....

don't get all this...

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There is now a Wikipedia article on Operation Delego, which has in its footnotes a link to the indictment against blackbart2010. The indictment describes specific instances of files which blackbart2010 added to the offensive board.

The indictment pleading in general provides more detail about what this offensive board was all about.

The third link in Post No. 17 is a link to the indictment.

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Well, most certainly, the sobriquet, BlackBart2010, seems to make it more likely that the perpetrator is, indeed, Bill Barton. I gotta tell you, after reading as much of this as I could stand, I really have to hand it to you guys who can find it in your hearts to forgive. No way. These aren't human beings, they're monsters.

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Assuming this guy is actually guilty, folks.

Reporting child abuse is an unfortunate part of my job, but at no time do I or the people I work for or the state agencies in charge of such things assume, ahead of the facts, the guilt or innocence of the parties in question. That is the most important point here.

A local teacher in my area was accused of molestation some years back. His face was all over the news, the front page and whatnot. People shunned him and family abandoned him. He was fired from his teaching job and his career was ruined.

He was found innocent.

As repugnant child molestation and for money is to all of us the trial has not yet begun. Personally, I will reserve judgment until the legal process has come to fruition. I hope that all of us will as well.

Having said that, if found guilty of a crime so vile and repulsive enough to make me want to vomit, it is my sincere hope they suffer the harshest penalties the law can execute against these people. May they never see the light of day ever again.

Edited by GoodSpeak

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Plenty of thoughtful posts in here... still, this whole thing has been haunting me for days and days without me finding any words. I guess I can kind of dig the concept of unconditional forgiveness - even though I'm an agnostic or whatever (do I really know? do I really care?). Either way, this is all endlessly sickening.

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These aren't human beings, they're monsters.

I'd like to think that they're monstrous human beings.

It's not like being a human being and being really dangerous and fucked up aren't mutually exclusive qualities.

OTOH, if we could round up all the monsters in the world (except the cute ones like Cookie Monster) and execute them at one place and at one time, that would pretty much fix everything, wouldn't it...

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There would be more, James.

You know, I don't know how we manufacture people like this but there seems to be no shortage. And it just sickens me.

Edited by GoodSpeak

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