Complete Wes Montgomery on Verve

[king ubu]

I've been playing bits of the Wes set in the past days. Sounds fine to me (though I've yet to compare with "Impressions" and the VMEs I have). The reproduction of the covers is wonderful, the liners seem to fairly short and on the point. The only thing that bothers me a bit is that there's no real discography. You have to piece together the line-ups from the original covers and get the release info at the end. Also, in some cases the bonustracks are with the albums and in others (I assume for lack of time) they're at the end of disc 5, paired with the four Half Note overdub tracks. None of this is a big issue, but it just makes this a step away from the perfect Wes Verve collection (but what's worst is of course what Mike Weil has mentioned above... hard to find out though, as Hip-O NEVER, EVER [why the hell!?] give track timings on their sets).

Anyway, I guess the Creed Taylor set remains my favorite for the time being - presentation there is absolutely wonderful (and the Ray Charles and Kai Winding albums good enough new/recent discoveries to make it of interest... the Charles is fantastic, and honestly I'm not 100% sure I'll listen to the three jazz albums on the other 2CD reissue of it all that often).

[mikeweil]

Amazon.it got me by reducing their price to € 33,77 - I now get a copy for € 40 incl. shipping ...

They sell the Nat Cole set for € 30.70, by the way ... but this will have to wait until after Xmas.

[JohnJ]

Amazon.it got me by reducing their price to € 33,77 - I now get a copy for € 40 incl. shipping ...

They sell the Nat Cole set for € 30.70, by the way ... but this will have to wait until after Xmas.

And the 'First Impulse : The Creed Taylor Collection' for Euro 26.02.

[Son-of-a-Weizen]

But please don't ask me about sound issues etc. - I'm no audiophile, and with the exception of horrendous RVGs such as "Capuchin Swing", or old dead Columbia CDs, I can rarely tell if something sounds really bad.

Now that's a refreshing comment!

[mikeweil]

Received the box today, listened to most of it ... sound is good, slight improvement over the two 1980's CD of Tequila and Movin' that I have, and the Verve Jazz Sides twofer. I have none of the VMEs to compare ...

Now that I've been reading the discographical credits, I understand why they left out the one version of Surrey with the fringe on top: It's an edit of the (lost) complete take made for the posthumous Willow Weep For Me LP. The longer original version was reconstructed as far as possible (some snippets of the session tape were lost in the edit) for the Verve Jazz Sides twofer, the new box includes this version, which is a minute longer because it still has the announcements and some more music in the themes. The credits on the twofer CD didn't make it as clear that the two versions were actually just two edits of the same take ... so, it's really a complete box set. I apologize for ranting ...

Only complaints are some minor errors and typos in the discographical credits; that the track timings and personnel listings are found only on the facsimiles of the LP covers is a drag. There are no matrix numbers (which are of limited value as Verve attributed them after the LP sides were assembled). The new notes could have gone a bit further and cover the history of the posthumous releases ....

But at the great low price I paid, I do not regret it. The more "commercial" sessions are not nearly as bad as I feared. Wes grooved the hell out of these tunes ...

... and the sidemen are great, especially the rhythm sections - Grady Tate on drums on most tracks, in excellent form.

Edited November 25, 2011 by mikeweil

[king ubu]

But please don't ask me about sound issues etc. - I'm no audiophile, and with the exception of horrendous RVGs such as "Capuchin Swing", or old dead Columbia CDs, I can rarely tell if something sounds really bad.

Now that's a refreshing comment!

You're not pulling any legs here?

...

Now that I've been reading the discographical credits, I understand why they left out the one version of Surrey with the fringe on top: It's an edit of the (lost) complete take made for the posthumous Willow Weep For Me LP. The longer original version was reconstructed as far as possible (some snippets of the session tape were lost in the edit) for the Verve Jazz Sides twofer, the new box includes this version, which is a minute longer because it still has the announcements and some more music in the themes. The credits on the twofer CD didn't make it as clear that the two versions were actually just two edits of the same take ... so, it's really a complete box set. I apologize for ranting ...

Thanks for clearing this up! I didn't yet have a close enough look... sounds like they got it right, then!

Only complaints are some minor errors and typos in the discographical credits; that the track timings and personnel listings are found only on the facsimiles of the LP covers is a drag.

What errors?

The thing about the missing timings bugs me with all of Hip-O's jazz sets... same for the smaller ones such as the Ella in Japan or Jazz at the Hollywood Bowl. Don't get it why they don't print the timings anywhere, when they have at least two tracklistings with every set!

[Ted O'Reilly]

The thing about the missing timings bugs me with all of Hip-O's jazz sets... same for the smaller ones such as the Ella in Japan or Jazz at the Hollywood Bowl. Don't get it why they don't print the timings anywhere, when they have at least two tracklistings with every set!

That used to bug me when I was doing radio stuff. If one played a performance recording (I can't call them 'live' recordings -- all performances are live, save Nat & Natalie Cole ) you'd never know if the timing included applause, or how long the applause would run. Could be a problem when you're up against the clock. It was a little better when CDs came along, as the player (at least the pro versions) had lots of time-read possibilities, and lots of cuing- and stop- options).

Just while I think of it (maybe this should be a separate entry) (and I again show my computer ignorance), why is it that when I play some CDs in my computer the track info shows up on one programme (RealPlayer, say) but not in another (Windows Media, say)?

[JSngry]

The more "commercial" sessions are not nearly as bad as I feared. Wes grooved the hell out of these tunes ...

... and the sidemen are great, especially the rhythm sections - Grady Tate on drums on most tracks, in excellent form.

Yep!

[mikeweil]

Only complaints are some minor errors and typos in the discographical credits; that the track timings and personnel listings are found only on the facsimiles of the LP covers is a drag.

What errors?

Will type them down as soon as I find the time ...

[king ubu]

Only complaints are some minor errors and typos in the discographical credits; that the track timings and personnel listings are found only on the facsimiles of the LP covers is a drag.

What errors?

Will type them down as soon as I find the time ...

Thanks, no rush!

[l p]

what are the newly issued items on this box?

thanks

[mikeweil]

No newly issued items - every track in this set has been released in some form. The four Half Note tracks with overdubs are on CDfor the first time, if I'm not mistaken. But all the alternates and tunes not on the original LPs had been issued on posthumous releases and on some CD.

[king ubu]

No newly issued items - every track in this set has been released in some form. The four Half Note tracks with overdubs are on CDfor the first time, if I'm not mistaken. But all the alternates and tunes not on the original LPs had been issued on posthumous releases and on some CD.

Aren't the overdubbed tracks the same as on "Willow Weep for Me"? That one was on CD in the LPR series.

[monkboughtlunch]

Back to Wes: I looked into the data of the Half Note recordings and it's a discographical mess. Obviously Creed Taylor was dissatisfied with the sound of the live recordings, that may have been the main reason why he had Wes and the Wynton Kelly Trio record three studio tracks a couple of months after the club date. The first LP Smokin' At The Half Note released these three and only two live tracks. The next LP Willow Weep For Me released four more, but with overdubbed orchestra to veil the inferior sound, and four unreleased studio tracks from previous sessions. More unreleased live tracks and the first two and the four without overdubs later appeared on the Verve twofer The Small Group Recordings and two Japanese Smokin' At The Half Note LPs (vol. 1 & 2 - the four studio tracks from the Willow Weep For Me LP plus four more unreleased tracks were on another Japanese LP release Just Walkin'). All of these plus a re-edited version of The Surrey With The Fringe On Top (radio announcements were removed etc. on the initially released version) were included on the Verve double CD The Verve Jazz Sides.

Listening to the Half Note tracks it is not hard to understand why Taylor was not happy with the audio quality ... often the guitar is too low in the mix, etc.

To me, the best solution would have been one live CD with the complete Half Note tracks, and five with all studio material in recording order, or if in LP sequence, at least with the sessions intact on one CD. IMO sequencing CDs after LPs is pure nostalgia, which often results in not using some capabilities of the different medium. Some day the old fans remembering the LPs will be all gone - what then? Just my opinion, of course.

Riddle me this: Didn't Rudy Van Gelder engineer the 2 live tracks on the original "Smokin" album? But the live tracks (overdubbed) on the Willow Weep For Me album were apparently not engineered by RVG, but instead are live FM stereo broadcast remote transcriptions, right?

So the question then becomes ==> what became of the rest of the RVG location recordings from which "No Blues" and "If You Could See Me Now" are culled? Have any outtakes recorded by RVG at those gigs ever be published? Remember, the live tracks on Willow Weep For Me are apparently just two track recordings made of FM radio broadcasts. You can hear these FM radio recordings without overdubs on the Smokin CD reissue that came out a couple of years ago and contained bonus tracks.

The main issue with the two RVG live remote recordings published on the original Smokin album is the poorly recorded bass, IMO. The guitar is loud enough in the mix. I think a lot of Creed Taylor productions in the mid 60s suffered from anemic bass. It's almost like Creed told Rudy to pinch the bass or something.

Edited December 5, 2011 by monkboughtlunch

[king ubu]

No idea about more RVG recordings, but more radio captured tracks are around...

[mikeweil]

No newly issued items - every track in this set has been released in some form. The four Half Note tracks with overdubs are on CDfor the first time, if I'm not mistaken. But all the alternates and tunes not on the original LPs had been issued on posthumous releases and on some CD.

Aren't the overdubbed tracks the same as on "Willow Weep for Me"? That one was on CD in the LPR series.

You're right! I didn't know that LPR existed ...

This double CD, BTW, has (almost) all the Half Note tracks with (disc 1) and without Wes (disc 2) in one package ...

Disc 1:

1. No Blues

2. If You Could See Me Now

3. Willow Weep for Me

4. Impressions

5. Portrait of Jenny

6. The Surrey With the Fringe On Top

7. Oh You Crazy Moon

8. Four On Six *

9. Misty

Disc 2:

1. Blues On Purpose

2. If You Could See Me Now

3. Somebody's Blues

4. Another Blues

5. Old Folks

6. Milestones

* this is a 9:20 live version issued on the Impressions twofer CD, but not included in the box set it seems! OTOH the version of Surrey included is the 5:16 edited one ...

Edited December 5, 2011 by mikeweil

[king ubu]

What I was hinting at are the Alan Grant radio broadcasts... I do assume there's some overlap? Haven't ever seen that Lonehill set you mention.

Wynton Kelly Trio with Wes Montgomery

New York City (USA), Half Note

Wynton Kelly - piano

Paul Chambers (CD1), Larry Ridley (CD2) - bass

Jimmy Cobb - drums

Wes Montgomery - guitar (CD1#4-6, CD2#5-7)

September 24, 1965 [43:53]

1. Introduction by Alan Grant > Blues Blues (12:39)

2. Old Folks (6:08) [poss. on Xanadu 198, "Blue on Purpose"]

3. Milestones (5:58) [poss. on Xanadu 198, "Blue on Purpose"]

4. Laura (6:58)

5. Cariba (8:39)

6. Alan Grant talk > Blues (Bb) (3:28) [w/Alan Grant voiceover/outro]

November 12, 1965 [42:50]

1. Introduction by Alan Grant (0:52)

2. Blue and Boogie (11:48)

3. If You Could See Me Now (7:37)

4. There Is No Greater Love (7:07)

5. Birk's Works (5:50)

6. Four on Six (8:14)

7. Announcements with band outro (1:20)

Source: WABC-FM "Portraits in Jazz", host: Alan Grant

I wonder, what are the trio tracks on that Lonehill set? Were have they been released before? #4-6 might be from the first Grant set?

[mikeweil]

I have no idea, and after having a listen to the Kelly Trio tracks in a local shop, I decided to pass this one - nice but not overwhelming.

[l p]

No newly issued items - every track in this set has been released in some form. The four Half Note tracks with overdubs are on CDfor the first time, if I'm not mistaken. But all the alternates and tunes not on the original LPs had been issued on posthumous releases and on some CD.

thanks. not surprising that this label wouldn't be able to get unissued material from the verve vaults.

i'm still hoping for a verve and a&m box sets without the overdubbed orchestras.

[king ubu]

No newly issued items - every track in this set has been released in some form. The four Half Note tracks with overdubs are on CDfor the first time, if I'm not mistaken. But all the alternates and tunes not on the original LPs had been issued on posthumous releases and on some CD.

thanks. not surprising that this label wouldn't be able to get unissued material from the verve vaults.

i'm still hoping for a verve and a&m box sets without the overdubbed orchestras.

Who else would be able to?

It is my understanding that Hip-O-Select is Universal's boutique label, took over most of the Universal boxes/reissues that Mosaic had been doing for too few years... and now that there's a Wes box, I don't really see any legit other Wes Verve box, even if they throw in the A&Ms (which I don't know yet).

[monkboughtlunch]

Are there any Verve research discographies which might indicate what unreleased outtakes and alternates were recorded by RVG at the same gigs that produced the two live songs on the original Smokin at the Half Note album? Surely there must have been a full set if, not multiple sets, recorded by Rudy Van Gelder on June 24th 1965. Anyone know what was laid to tape and what became of those tapes?

Wynton Kelly Trio With Wes Montgomery

Wynton Kelly (p) Wes Montgomery (g) Paul Chambers (b) Jimmy Cobb (d)

"Half Note", NYC, June 24, 1965

65VK493 No Blues Verve V/V6 8633, VE2 2513, (J) J28J 25117

65VK494 If You Could See Me Now -

Edited December 11, 2011 by monkboughtlunch

[mikeweil]

So far nine different tracks have turned up on various Verve issues, recorded between June 22 and 29, 1965. Has it been confirmed Van Gelder engineered those sessions?

If there are any more unreleased takes, they are certainly not usable.

1. No Blues (Miles Davis) 12:52
2. If You Could See Me Now (Tadd Dameron) 8:21
3. Willow Weep For Me (Ann Ronell) 7:35
4. Impressions (John Coltrane) 5:03
5. Oh, You Crazy Moon (Jimmy Van Heusen) 5:19
6. Four On Six – live (Wes Montgomery) 9:30
7. Misty (Erroll Garner) 6:40
8. Portrait of Jennie (J. Russell Robinson) 2:45
9. The Surrey With The Fringe On Top - edited (Richard Rodgers) 5:18
10. The Surrey With The Fringe On Top - reconstructed 6:12

Edited December 11, 2011 by mikeweil

[monkboughtlunch]

So far nine different tracks have turned up on various Verve issues, recorded between June 22 and 29, 1965. Has it been confirmed Van Gelder engineered those sessions?

If there are any more unreleased takes, they are certainly not usable.

1. No Blues (Miles Davis) 12:52
2. If You Could See Me Now (Tadd Dameron) 8:21
3. Willow Weep For Me (Ann Ronell) 7:35
4. Impressions (John Coltrane) 5:03
5. Oh, You Crazy Moon (Jimmy Van Heusen) 5:19
6. Four On Six – live (Wes Montgomery) 9:30
7. Misty (Erroll Garner) 6:40
8. Portrait of Jennie (J. Russell Robinson) 2:45
9. The Surrey With The Fringe On Top - edited (Richard Rodgers) 5:18
10. The Surrey With The Fringe On Top - reconstructed 6:12

I think only the first 2 are RVG recorded. The rest were FM stereo live remote broadcasts, perhaps engineered and recorded by the radio station? Can anyone confirm?

[mikeweil]

At least some of them have radio announcements, like the reconstructed take of Surrey.

[monkboughtlunch]

The mystery surrounding what became of RVG's location recordings at the Half Note is quite tantalizing. Only 2 of RVGs recordings from the gigs have been issued thus far. I think these live recordings could be the jewel of Wes' Verve years as they are bereft of turgid overproduction that Creed overlaid on Wes' Verve studio output. Will we ever get to hear them? Do they even exist?