Alyn Shipton's 'Jazz Library' now archived

[A Lark Ascending]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet.

I just noticed a large number of these programmes are now available to listen to online:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazz/jazzlibrarya-z.shtml

Some excellent interviews there.

The BBC have always hung back from this on the grounds of licencing of the recorded music - maybe they've got round it or have sliced out the musical examples.

It's always seemed a shame such programmes are around for a week or so and then vanish unless repeated. Be good to see the mammoth History of Jazz series they did 10 years or more back repeated.

Can this be accessed outside the UK?

[These programmes are either interviews with the musicians themselves or with other musicians with a particular love of the subject]

Edited August 16, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[alocispepraluger102]

sadly no

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazz/jazzlibrarya-z.shtml#h

[BillF]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet.

I just noticed a large number of these programmes are now available to listen to online:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio3/jazz/jazzlibrarya-z.shtml

Some excellent interviews there.

The BBC have always hung back from this on the grounds of licencing of the recorded music - maybe they've got round it or have sliced out the musical examples.

It's always seemed a shame such programmes are around for a week or so and then vanish unless repeated. Be good to see the mammoth History of Jazz series they did 10 years or more back repeated.

Can this be accessed outside the UK?

[These programmes are either interviews with the musicians themselves or with other musicians with a particular love of the subject]

Yes, a superb series, Bev. Heard a very good one with NHOP last week; looking forward to one on Oliver Nelson on Friday.

[brownie]

For home consumption only

Not surprised Albert Ayler is not included in the list.

BBC's treatment of Ayler is a sad story

[sidewinder]

Not suprised at the 'Home Consumption' bit as that would be standard for BBC archive material - licensing concerns I guess.

Sadly, Albert Ayler was far too much of a legend to appear in 'Jazz Legends'.

[A Lark Ascending]

Can't imagine there's any conspiracy against Ayler. We could spend all day listing who is missing. No Bill Evans...yet.

The programme has only been going since 2007 and appears in batches rather than every week. Often the subjects are based on people currently on tour in the UK - they are often recorded with an audience at jazz festivals or concerts. I don't think there's any system for working through 'the greats'.

Not sure how they decide the programmes where a current musician talks about an older one. Probably nothing more than finding someone willing to talk about a musician they particularly admire.

Alyn Shipton is unlikely to have anything against Ayler - he's a very receptive writer and broadcaster across the whole spectrum of jazz. Plenty of Ayler references in his 'A New History of Jazz'.

Note this Jazz Library programme on Henry Grimes: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00kksny (not on the alphabetical list. Probably to do with gaining permission - the Mike Westbrook programme is absent too).

The full list of the programmes broadcast is here:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006x41z/episodes

Wonderfully eclectic - from the Art Ensemble to Australian Jazz. Lets hope the missing ones appear in time.

What is the story behind the BBC's treatment of Ayler? I'd imagine it was part of a general lack of receptivity to free/New Thing jazz. Though I'd be surprised it Charles Fox didn't play him on his Jazz Today programme.

(Incidentally, I recall the programme on Hank Mobley being especially good. Dave Gelly was able to use his saxophonist experience to talk about Mobley's qualities without dumbfounding the technically illiterate listener).

Edited August 17, 2011 by A Lark Ascending

[BillF]

Love to be able to see My Name Is Albert Ayler, which Lovefilm can't supply. Not that I suspect a conspiracy!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/movie/111937/my.name.is.albert.ayler

Edited August 17, 2011 by BillF

[mracz]

Speaking from my fading and sometimes unreliable memory, the story is that Ayler recorded a television slot in London; when one of the executives heard/saw it the programme was cancelled and the tapes erased. BTW it's supposed to have been ITV (maybe Thames TV or whatever it was called in the 60s?) not the BBC. The Beeb was usually pretty cool about outside/avant-garde music of all stripes. I have no idea if this is true or just urban myth...

[crisp]

Excellent find -- thanks. The odd (for me) scheduling of this show means I always miss it. The BBC seems to be relenting on making its archive available online. Since we in the UK paid for it to be produced in the first place, it seems right to me that we should be able to access it for free.

Just clicked on the Bix Beidebecke programme to check running times: 39m 34s in this case so I suspect music cuts have been made (it's a 60 minute show).

BTW on the Bix there's a notice that reads: "Guidance: contains behaviour which could be imitated". Quite right. Mustn't have the kiddies taking up the cornet.

[Jazzjet]

Speaking from my fading and sometimes unreliable memory, the story is that Ayler recorded a television slot in London; when one of the executives heard/saw it the programme was cancelled and the tapes erased. BTW it's supposed to have been ITV (maybe Thames TV or whatever it was called in the 60s?) not the BBC. The Beeb was usually pretty cool about outside/avant-garde music of all stripes. I have no idea if this is true or just urban myth...

Interesting. Seemingly it was from the BBC Jazz Goes To College series, recorded in 1966 :

Ayler - Jazz Goes To College

Recently I heard a 1977 show hosted by rock star Ian Dury on BBC Radio 1, where stars were invited to choose their favourite records ( I believe it was called Star Choice ). He started off with an Albert Ayler record! I bet that's the first and last time that Ayler has been played on Radio 1.

[Lazaro Vega]

In his "New History of Jazz" Shipton uses quotes from Roscoe Mitchell, Archie Shepp and Paul Bley to introduce Ayler and, especially, to underscore Ayler's importance to other musicians in the era. On page 580 he gets into a specific historical overview of Ayler's music, with a concentration on "Ghosts," and how Ayler's sound influenced or was influenced by the musical inter-relationships of Ornette Coleman, Cecil Taylor, the AACM and the "noise-based playing of of the European avant-garde saxophonist Peter Brotzmann."

Though this might not have come up over the BBC, Shipton is thorough in this history. Radio and print, two very different worlds with very different "editorial" approaches.

[mracz]

Thanks for correcting my faulty memory. That listing seems pretty definitive. Are there any videos from Jazz Goes to College that survive?

[brownie]

Speaking from my fading and sometimes unreliable memory, the story is that Ayler recorded a television slot in London; when one of the executives heard/saw it the programme was cancelled and the tapes erased. BTW it's supposed to have been ITV (maybe Thames TV or whatever it was called in the 60s?) not the BBC. The Beeb was usually pretty cool about outside/avant-garde music of all stripes. I have no idea if this is true or just urban myth...

From Jeff Schwartz e-book on Ayler:

The group's appearance on British TV had seemed jinxed from the start, as problems with their accommodations had forced the musicians to wander the streets of London, where they could not be reached by the anxious producers. When the two half-hour programs were recorded, the music contained an absolute minimum of improvisation. Even a purely thematic recital must have been too much for 1966 England. Shocked programming executives ordered it destroyed, though bootleg audio (and possibly video) copies of this continuous half-hour piece may exist.

No traces of the images and the sounds (a BBC broadcast) seem to have surfaced yet!

[Jazzjet]

Thanks for correcting my faulty memory. That listing seems pretty definitive. Are there any videos from Jazz Goes to College that survive?

A few years ago BBC4 showed an improved version of Jazz Goes To College with the Stan Getz Quartet ( with Gary Burton, Steve Swallow and Roy Haynes ) from 1967.

No sign yet of any of the other concerts, which is a shame as I distinctly remember the one by the Max Roach Quintet ( with Freddie Hubbard and James Spaulding ) the first time around.

Sadly ironic as the BBC is apparently planning to make big cuts to BBC4 which is the only channel where you're likely to find jazz ( albeit infrequently ). All part of the BBC's process, named

in Orwellian fashion as 'Delivering Quality First'.

[sidewinder]

A few years ago BBC4 showed an improved version of Jazz Goes To College with the Stan Getz Quartet ( with Gary Burton, Steve Swallow and Roy Haynes ) from 1967.

No sign yet of any of the other concerts, which is a shame as I distinctly remember the one by the Max Roach Quintet ( with Freddie Hubbard and James Spaulding ) the first time around.

I remember reading at one time that all those 'Jazz Goes To College' were wiped to make room for 'Blankety Blank' et al so when the Getz appeared it was a bit of a shock to expectations. I wonder if they sourced it as a stray copy from one of the overseas affiliates (in the same way that 'Pete & Dud' shows sometimes misteriously reappear).

I'd be delighted if more of these were found and put on BBC4. The Max Roach/Freddie Hubbard sounds fantastic - and of historical significance.

I think there was at least one Tubby Hayes performance on 'Jazz Goes To College' which has never surfaced for TV viewing.

Would also like (massive understatement) to see the multiple weeks of Joe Harriott/John Mayer Indo-Jazz Fusions from about 1969/70 that was reputedly broadcast only on a local slot on HTV West from Bristol - shown once (no doubt on the Sunday teatime God-slot ) and apparently long lost. Maybe there is a stray Welsh copy of it still out there..

It would be a damn travesty if they cut back on BBC4. The only decent channel left.

Edited August 17, 2011 by sidewinder

[sidewinder]

All part of the BBC's process, named

in Orwellian fashion as 'Delivering Quality First'.

And delivered by a Birtian dalek..

[A Lark Ascending]

Speaking from my fading and sometimes unreliable memory, the story is that Ayler recorded a television slot in London; when one of the executives heard/saw it the programme was cancelled and the tapes erased. BTW it's supposed to have been ITV (maybe Thames TV or whatever it was called in the 60s?) not the BBC. The Beeb was usually pretty cool about outside/avant-garde music of all stripes. I have no idea if this is true or just urban myth...

From Jeff Schwartz e-book on Ayler:

The group's appearance on British TV had seemed jinxed from the start, as problems with their accommodations had forced the musicians to wander the streets of London, where they could not be reached by the anxious producers. When the two half-hour programs were recorded, the music contained an absolute minimum of improvisation. Even a purely thematic recital must have been too much for 1966 England. Shocked programming executives ordered it destroyed, though bootleg audio (and possibly video) copies of this continuous half-hour piece may exist.

No traces of the images and the sounds (a BBC broadcast) seem to have surfaced yet!

The BBC, as a corporation, has never given a great deal of attention to jazz of any sort. In the 60s they could deal with highbrow and middle of the road pop but even rock caused them problems. They have no problem with rock/pop now (they understand commerce) or classical (fits in with their concept of 'culture'); but anything in between...

Having said that there have been a string of individual advocates over the years who seem to have kept the flag flying.

Sadly ironic as the BBC is apparently planning to make big cuts to BBC4 which is the only channel where you're likely to find jazz ( albeit infrequently ). All part of the BBC's process, named in Orwellian fashion as 'Delivering Quality First'.

Agree with sidewinder on this. BBC4 does what BBC2 was originally intended to do.

But when decisions are based on bean counting...

Clearly documentaries about music like jazz can't compete with 'A Day in the Life of a Dinner Lady' programmes.

[romualdo]

Not suprised at the 'Home Consumption' bit as that would be standard for BBC archive material - licensing concerns I guess.

Sadly, Albert Ayler was far too much of a legend to appear in 'Jazz Legends'.

Don't you think they would have made an exception for the "colonies"

[crisp]

The BBC, as a corporation, has never given a great deal of attention to jazz of any sort.

True. If I wanted to defend the BBC, I would say that this is probably only a reflection of the attitude the British generally have towards jazz: suspicion verging on hatred. Until BBC4 started, the only jazz on BBC TV was the insulting and ignorant Jazz Club sketch on The Fast Show. The assumption that jazz is just a way of being pretentious is where most British people seem to be on the music, unfortunately.

But as I don't want to defend the BBC, I'll add this: I suspect the Beeb dislikes jazz partly because it can't be controlled in the way that classical and pop can. After ignoring it for years on its flagship music show, Later, it recently had McCoy Tyner on, and look what happened (watch to the end):

Won't be doing that again.

[A Lark Ascending]

Jazz does have a certain cache in the UK as a sign of 'sophistication' - think of how the word alone or the image of the smoky jazz club is used in marketing.

I just think the BBC traditionally saw its role as upholding 'culture' but had a very narrow view of what that meant (yet within classical music it has always been prepared to support new music and the avant garde, often at the expense of more conservative music). Until the 70s it almost seemed as if it was doing 'popular' music against its will, maybe hoping that it could ultimately ween the audience off pop and onto the 'serious' stuff.

Sometime in the 70s it became or was forced to become much more commercially aware and it has responded to a market driven musical agenda with equal enthusiasm.

I don't think it 'hates' jazz (or folk, country, blues etc). It's just that there have never been enough enthusiasts/advocates at the higher executive levels to treat it as music with as much validity as classical music.

I love the idea of the BBC as a public service broadcasting service with a duty to serve a broad range of taste and to help to keep the wider musical world well fed by constantly bringing to the forefront music that would not get noticed if the market alone was at work. The BBC does the latter for classical magnificently; I just think the sort of person who makes it to the upper echelons of the BBC assumes they are doing their bit for jazz if they commission something from Richard Rodney Bennett.

All the more reason to celebrate the work of people like Alyn Shipton, Jez Nelson, Geoffrey Smith (who is much underused - seems like a typical chirpy presenter on JRR but if you hear him talking freely about jazz he's fascinating) today - and, as we've said many times before here, the likes of Humph, Peter Clayton, Brian Morton and Charles Fox in the past.

The other mistake the BBC (and UK broadcasting more generally) makes is requiring a 'personality' to hang programmes on. Think of how we've had jazz programmes presented by Clare Martin, Jamie Cullum, Courtney Pine (though, thankfully, not Alan Titchmarsh yet!). It's that strange idea that people will not listen unless its a celebrity. Maybe they are right (I'm sure they've done the market research). But my model for a good presenter is someone who is an enthusiast for the music first and foremost - the John Peel approach.

Side thought.

The most recent Jazz Library on NHOP that Bill mentioned earlier is well worth a listen. I heard bits of it in a carpart in the pouring rain gazing at the Atlantic last week. Listened again yesterday and was very taken by both the man and the music played. Made me download three NHOP albums!

[crisp]

Yeah, the jazz on Radio 3 is good, but it has to be fenced off for some reason. The closest that regular programming gets is to play a jazz piece by a slumming classical performer -- Andre Previn, say, or Grappelli duetting with Menuhin -- when it should be playing the best of the genre.

Your observation about personality-led presenters is spot-on. There has to be that TV profile it seems. Jamie Cullum's Radio 2 show is a disgrace: too many vocals and constant boasting about his global travels and other jaunts. Geoffrey Smith would fit right into that slot -- he's got a perfect Radio 2 voice.

My wish would be to make 6 Music a genuine "music" channel with jazz, blues, folk, country etc -- contemporary stuff by day, vintage by night. Why should rock and pop listeners have *another* channel all to themselves?

[A Lark Ascending]

My wish would be to make 6 Music a genuine "music" channel with jazz, blues, folk, country etc -- contemporary stuff by day, vintage by night. Why should rock and pop listeners have *another* channel all to themselves?

My thoughts, too. Though I've no wish to deprive the airwaves of what I believe is a non-mainstream station. Maybe a BBC 7, 8 or whatever (I'm sure no-one would miss one of the local phone in/classic pop stations that make Radio 1 sound innovative!). Apart from anything else it would allow the BBC to boast of its wider commitment to serving a broad spectrum of taste, without having to interfere with the stations its heart is in.

No chance, of course, in the current climate.

[BillF]

Jazz does have a certain cache in the UK as a sign of 'sophistication' - think of how the word alone or the image of the smoky jazz club is used in marketing.

I just think the BBC traditionally saw its role as upholding 'culture' but had a very narrow view of what that meant (yet within classical music it has always been prepared to support new music and the avant garde, often at the expense of more conservative music). Until the 70s it almost seemed as if it was doing 'popular' music against its will, maybe hoping that it could ultimately ween the audience off pop and onto the 'serious' stuff.

Sometime in the 70s it became or was forced to become much more commercially aware and it has responded to a market driven musical agenda with equal enthusiasm.

I don't think it 'hates' jazz (or folk, country, blues etc). It's just that there have never been enough enthusiasts/advocates at the higher executive levels to treat it as music with as much validity as classical music.

I love the idea of the BBC as a public service broadcasting service with a duty to serve a broad range of taste and to help to keep the wider musical world well fed by constantly bringing to the forefront music that would not get noticed if the market alone was at work. The BBC does the latter for classical magnificently; I just think the sort of person who makes it to the upper echelons of the BBC assumes they are doing their bit for jazz if they commission something from Richard Rodney Bennett.

All the more reason to celebrate the work of people like Alyn Shipton, Jez Nelson, Geoffrey Smith (who is much underused - seems like a typical chirpy presenter on JRR but if you hear him talking freely about jazz he's fascinating) today - and, as we've said many times before here, the likes of Humph, Peter Clayton, Brian Morton and Charles Fox in the past.

The other mistake the BBC (and UK broadcasting more generally) makes is requiring a 'personality' to hang programmes on. Think of how we've had jazz programmes presented by Clare Martin, Jamie Cullum, Courtney Pine (though, thankfully, not Alan Titchmarsh yet!). It's that strange idea that people will not listen unless its a celebrity. Maybe they are right (I'm sure they've done the market research). But my model for a good presenter is someone who is an enthusiast for the music first and foremost - the John Peel approach.

Side thought.

The most recent Jazz Library on NHOP that Bill mentioned earlier is well worth a listen. I heard bits of it in a carpart in the pouring rain gazing at the Atlantic last week. Listened again yesterday and was very taken by both the man and the music played. Made me download three NHOP albums!

Some points arising from your interesting post, Bev:

NHOP emerged as very articulate - and I don't just mean on bass - fluent in English with an engaging Scandinavian/American voice. Little touches of ego made it more meaningful than the sort of interview where everyone the subject has played with is "wonderful". He said he loved duos as he got more of a say and his Looking at Bird with Archie Shepp is a favourite of mine.

Jazz has always been the poor relation at the BBC, moved from waveband to waveband as upper class bosses never quite knew what to do with something they had no personal liking for. Nearest to a big man as its protector was Humphrey Lyttelton, Eton educated, but digging trumpet rather than than hunting.

To its eternal damnation, the BBC with its UK monopoly played less of a part in my jazz education than the more-or-less-"pirate" station, Radio Luxembourg. There in 1959 on a show called "Jamboree Jazz Time" I first heard Coltrane and Ornette Coleman. Again in those years, Willis Conover's "Voice of America Jazz Hour", heard through a barrage of static brought me the sounds which were nowhere to be heard on the BBC.

[Jazzjet]

A few years ago BBC4 showed an improved version of Jazz Goes To College with the Stan Getz Quartet ( with Gary Burton, Steve Swallow and Roy Haynes ) from 1967.

No sign yet of any of the other concerts, which is a shame as I distinctly remember the one by the Max Roach Quintet ( with Freddie Hubbard and James Spaulding ) the first time around.

I remember reading at one time that all those 'Jazz Goes To College' were wiped to make room for 'Blankety Blank' et al so when the Getz appeared it was a bit of a shock to expectations. I wonder if they sourced it as a stray copy from one of the overseas affiliates (in the same way that 'Pete & Dud' shows sometimes misteriously reappear).

I'd be delighted if more of these were found and put on BBC4. The Max Roach/Freddie Hubbard sounds fantastic - and of historical significance.

I think there was at least one Tubby Hayes performance on 'Jazz Goes To College' which has never surfaced for TV viewing.

Would also like (massive understatement) to see the multiple weeks of Joe Harriott/John Mayer Indo-Jazz Fusions from about 1969/70 that was reputedly broadcast only on a local slot on HTV West from Bristol - shown once (no doubt on the Sunday teatime God-slot ) and apparently long lost. Maybe there is a stray Welsh copy of it still out there..

It would be a damn travesty if they cut back on BBC4. The only decent channel left.

Apparently, the plan is to cut back BBC 4 in favour of the truly appalling BBC 3 ( 'yoof' programming wins out against a channel watched by old farts like us who actually pay the TV license ). See the piece in The Guardian :

BBC 4

Allegedly the plan is to cut back on drama, leaving BBC 4 to concentrate on 'arts and archives', but I think we know where this is heading.

There's a Facebook campaign already to 'Save BBC 4', so please visit :

Save BBC 4

[sidewinder]

To its eternal damnation, the BBC with its UK monopoly played less of a part in my jazz education than the more-or-less-"pirate" station, Radio Luxembourg. There in 1959 on a show called "Jamboree Jazz Time" I first heard Coltrane and Ornette Coleman. Again in those years, Willis Conover's "Voice of America Jazz Hour", heard through a barrage of static brought me the sounds which were nowhere to be heard on the BBC.

Even in the 1970s I remember tuning in to a very intermittent and fading 'Voice Of America' to listen to the jazz on there. It was still more adventurous than the stuff they were putting out at the time on the BBC (honourable exception - Charles Fox). Plus - I think I've mentioned on this board before the revelation of tuning in to one of those Normandy statons on AM radio one Summer morning and hearing the whole of one side of 'Agharta' !

not Alan Titchmarsh yet

Don't give them ideas ! Yuck..