Gay Jazz Musicians

[BillF]

were there perhaps jazz musicians named gay who used their natural names and were straight?

Well, there's Butch Warren and Alvin Queen.

[Pete C]

Specific names aside, Chris' response to bisexualism above is puzzling. I suppose a rule of thumb could be:

1. Only has sex with opposite sex - straight (or gay in denial)

2. Only has sex with same sex - gay

3. Has sex with both sexes, enjoys both - bi

4. Has sex with both sexes, only enjoys same sex - gay with an asterisk

5. Has sex with both sexes, only enjoys opposite sex - not sure who this would be--maybe some English public school boys?

Also, don't forget "situational" sexuality, like guys who'll have sex with men in prison, but would never consider it on the outside.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Pete C

[sidewinder]

5. Has sex with both sexes, only enjoys opposite sex - not sure who this would be--maybe some English public school boys?

No - that lot would be on the 'masochists' thread..

[robertoart]

5. Has sex with both sexes, only enjoys opposite sex - not sure who this would be--maybe some English public school boys?

No - that lot would be on the 'masochists' thread..

One of my favourite Peter Cook moments,

Michael Parkinson Q. Peter what do you remember most about your public school days?

Peter Cook A. Trying to avoid buggery.

Edited April 4, 2012 by freelancer

[Pete C]

I do like juicy gossip as much as anyone, so how about a thread on Jazz Musicians with Acid Reflux?

[BillF]

I do like juicy gossip as much as anyone, so how about a thread on Jazz Musicians with Acid Reflux?

That would be Honk Mostly.

[robertoart]

Not judging, just saying... if Oscar Peterson was gay, he did a pretty good job on the other side of the fence - 4 wives, father to seven children (at least). First time I heard that one.

Having babies and marrying multiple times is not at all unusual, especially when one considers Peterson's environment and the fact that we only recently have woken up to reality.

I am currently compiling a list of jazz musicians who might possibly be straight. Please bear with me.

Don't want to continue this much further, but I am trying to understand the terms here. Valerie above says that some of these musicians must be bi-sexual, which would seem to be accurate (assuming there's any merit to some of this, which I'm beginning to doubt quite frankly, and no, I'm not in denial). But Chris, stay with me here, you're saying that if someone is married to a member of the opposite sex for 50+ years (whether one marriage or several), dies married to a member of the opposite sex, fathers children, but also has relations with members of the same sex, that person's not bi-sexual; they're strictly gay??? This is a bridge too far for me.

i understand it like this: someone who openly has relationships with both males and females, a few months or years of this, then a few of the other, is bisexual - someone who leads a "double-life" being straight, married and all to the outside and while having more or less secret same-sex relationships for fear of whatever should not really be considered bisexual... just like a jazz musician isn't a ... musician as well just because he played a great timpani solo on an album of ... music...

I'm not in denial mode or morally shocked or anything... and I don't mind discussing these questions.

I asked Chris the very same question that John Tapscott rose again - however he seems to ignore it. So...

Niko's explanation makes sense, but my point still is: it can be multi-faceted. You can be married, have affairs with people of both sexes... bi-sexuality exists. I quickly had the impression Chris was in denial-mode regarding bi-sexuality and found that a bit weird, but I guess I'm out of here now.

I think it's crucial to note that, beyond the fact that bi-sexuality as a phenomenon (i.e., sex with both men and women) exists, bi-sexuality as a self-identifier is a very real thing. Reducing the conversation to a gay/straight dyad undermines the notion that many in the GLBT community do understand sexuality as more of a spectrum than a duality (and identify themselves at various points within--and not necessarily at the extremes of--that spectrum). This is actually a huge issue in contemporary sexuality--I've heard firsthand accounts of queer folk (self-identified as such) coming into tension with gay self-identifiers due to the fact that said queer folk are perceived as living in a non-committal, liminal space (i.e., get with the revolution). All this does is diminish the agency of people that do genuinely feel various degrees of attraction to both sexes, which is in its own way just as disenfranchising as perpetuating jazz's latent (or overt homophobia.

On a different note, and keeping in mind I know very, very little about Arthur Rhames, I think it's interesting that Rhames's otherwise surprisingly detailed (for a relatively obscure musician) wikipedia entry completely omits any mention of homosexuality--especially considering his death at a relatively young age--in the late 1980's--due to AIDS-related illness. One of the more pointed passages in the liners to that Soundscape album that came out a while back was Vernon Reid acknowledging that (paraphrasing here) getting to know Rhames helped Reid "get over" his own homophobia. Obviously, Rhames's sexual orientation is totally incidental to whether or not the music moves you, but it's difficult not to see how the early death of this musician with remarkable potential was inextricably linked to the problematic nature of AIDS treatment/recognition/awareness. That's a very clear and relevant reason to discuss homosexuality in jazz.

I think it's sad that Vernon Reid was homophobic, and sadder that it took someone who was the object of Reid's musical desires to help him overcome this.

It's good though, that if he thought it was important to address Rhames sexuality in the liner notes, that he (Reid) was honest about his homophobia (if indeed this is what he admits to).

I could not find any online source for the liner notes, but did find this very telling paraphrasing of them;

"According to Vernon Reid, he was also a "deeply closeted" homosexual, and was "afraid that if he was 'out' that all of us in the 'hood who loved and worshipped him as an artist would turn our backs on him." In his final days, ravished by AIDS, Reid recalls him saying, with complete optimism, "When I get better and get out of here I'm going to concentrate on the blues because this experience has given me a new insight into human suffering."

[sonnymax]

Specific names aside, Chris' response to bisexualism above is puzzling. I suppose a rule of thumb could be:

1. Only has sex with opposite sex - straight (or gay in denial)

2. Only has sex with same sex - gay

3. Has sex with both sexes, enjoys both - bi

4. Has sex with both sexes, only enjoys same sex - gay with an asterisk

5. Has sex with both sexes, only enjoys opposite sex - not sure who this would be--maybe some English public school boys?

Also, don't forget "situational" sexuality, like guys who'll have sex with men in prison, but would never consider it on the outside.

You're confusing sexual orientation with sexual behavior. People focus on and label behavior, rather than try to understand who an individual is and where they are coming from. It's often complicated and confusing, and can raise questions and fears about one's own self.

[Christiern]

Listen to sonnymax, Pete C. — he is right.

[Big Beat Steve]

As if there weren't any out there whose sexual behavior matched their sexual orientation 100% ...

And for those anyway, Pete C's ( a bit tongue-in-cheek, so I take it ) clasification is spot-on.

[Guy Berger]

Specific names aside, Chris' response to bisexualism above is puzzling. I suppose a rule of thumb could be:

1. Only has sex with opposite sex - straight (or gay in denial)

2. Only has sex with same sex - gay

3. Has sex with both sexes, enjoys both - bi

4. Has sex with both sexes, only enjoys same sex - gay with an asterisk

5. Has sex with both sexes, only enjoys opposite sex - not sure who this would be--maybe some English public school boys?

Also, don't forget "situational" sexuality, like guys who'll have sex with men in prison, but would never consider it on the outside.

You're confusing sexual orientation with sexual behavior. People focus on and label behavior, rather than try to understand who an individual is and where they are coming from. It's often complicated and confusing, and can raise questions and fears about one's own self.

I don't know much about this subject, but my understanding is that contemporary psychologists think of sexual identity as a multidimensional characteristic (wrong word?), and behavior is one of those dimensions, though certainly not the only one.

[Pete C]

Don Pullen?????......link/reference please.

Google book link

See last paragraph of 2nd column, page 438

It also mentions that there were rumors about Tony Williams, but I do know that he was living for a while with Linda Sharrock on 3rd Ave. & 14th Street, and my friend in their building described them as a couple.

Edited May 31, 2012 by Pete C

[Chuck Nessa]

Why does anyone care?

Does it matter how you absorb their music?

If it does, you need to examine why.

Good luck.

[J.A.W.]

Why does anyone care?

Does it matter how you absorb their music?

If it does, you need to examine why.

Good luck.

My thoughts exactly.

Edited May 31, 2012 by J.A.W.

[mikeweil]

Same here.

[robertoart]

In the days before the internet, it's more than likely everyone without direct connections or insider knowledge (ie connections to people with direct connections) would have had any idea of the sexuality of many Jazz musicians at all. Gossip about sexuality wasn't exactly a liner note topic that's for sure. And jazz musicians haven't historically drawn attention to their sexuality as a content (or political point) of their art as is the case in other artistic disciplines. I don't think it's even been much of a hidden subtext as such. Unless others know differently.

[Hardbopjazz]

Why does anyone care?

Does it matter how you absorb their music?

If it does, you need to examine why.

Good luck.

I couldn't have said any better.

[Larry Kart]

I want to know everything about everyone, but I'd prefer that no one know much of anything about me.

[Christiern]

I think it is very important to know who is totally straight. I am compiling a short list.

[johnlitweiler]

were there perhaps jazz musicians named gay who used their natural names and were straight?

Well, in gospel music there were the Gay Sisters and their brother Pastor Donald Gay. Geraldine Gay, the pianist sister, was called "the Errol Garner of Gospel" by author Anthony Heilbut. Close enough?

Pres referred to King Oliver as "a gay old fellow." (BTW Oliver would have been in his 40s when Pres was in his band.)

[jeffcrom]

This tenor saxophonist/bandleader is really Gay:

And that's young Mr. Coltrane on alto!

[mjazzg]

Why does anyone care?

Does it matter how you absorb their music?

If it does, you need to examine why.

Good luck.

some people care because as gay people themselves they feel they share an identity and a history. This history is often incomplete because prejudice and discrimination meant gay people chose (and still choose) not to disclose their sexuality. In a non-prejudicial world it actually wouldn't matter if we did know everyone's sexuality. It's not necessarily about their music, and absorption thereof, at all, you're correct on that.