Bach solo violin: HIP recommendations?

[king ubu]

20th and 21st Century children working with ancient instruments, or reproductions lose music as they search for technique.

They're not losing it, just an approach in search for a different one. The music always is more than the notes, it also encompasses the sound, and that is linked to instruments. Cellos or violins in Bach's time sounded different, that's a fact. The introduction of steel strings and higher tension and modern tunings changes the sound a lot.

Like Skip Sempé stated:

"In most fine music written before the 1950s, the sound and the composition were linked by the composer. Some performers do not care about this, and some listeners don't care either, but that was clearly the method behind the tradition in question. Without any doubt, this is the manner in which harpsichord music was conceived."

I appreciate the approach of a lot of these players, but I just can't get around to like their sound.

"These players" being the non-HIP, what some would call "romantic" performers, I assume, or am I misunderstanding what you're saying? I tend to agree with that, though for me it's not a "black and white" case.

Ha, I read it that Mike meant the HIP ones with "these players". So clarification would indeed be nice

After having played the entire Sonatas/Partitas by Szeryng, I'm now halfway into Zehetmair's recordings. Beautiful just as well!

[Larry Kart]

20th and 21st Century children working with ancient instruments, or reproductions lose music as they search for technique.

They're not losing it, just an approach in search for a different one. The music always is more than the notes, it also encompasses the sound, and that is linked to instruments. Cellos or violins in Bach's time sounded different, that's a fact. The introduction of steel strings and higher tension and modern tunings changes the sound a lot.

Like Skip Sempé stated:

"In most fine music written before the 1950s, the sound and the composition were linked by the composer. Some performers do not care about this, and some listeners don't care either, but that was clearly the method behind the tradition in question. Without any doubt, this is the manner in which harpsichord music was conceived."

I appreciate the approach of a lot of these players, but I just can't get around to like their sound.

Yes, but you're assuming, as is Sempe, that the specific sonic means/resources (number of performers, nature of instruments, etc.) available to the composers of Bach's era, or earlier or later on, were always a good match (i.e. were satisfying linked in their own minds) to their musical thinking. In the case of Bach, for one, there is abundant evidence that this was not always the case. Also, what the heck does Sempe mean by "In most fine music written before the 1950s" etc." Is "1950s" a typo? If not, what happened then to change things? In any case, my point is that there is no one size fits all HIP answer to this stuff.

[mikeweil]

Of course there is no one size fits all approach - not among the players of the "romantic" school (to which I referred when I said "these players") nor among "HIP" players. I have several recordings of Bach's major works lying around that I like, all with different approaches.

Even if Bach was dissatisfied with some aspects of the instruments he had at his disposal, when he wrote something down, it certainly was with those in mind that he knew his music would be played on. And he took them to their limits, but it always works when one uses the instruments he had.

I reasearched a lot into harpsichord music: There still are only a handful of recordings playing his pieces on the types of Thuringian harpsichords he used. (One reason of course is, that the harpsichords Zacharias Hildebrandt made for him are lost, and others by this maker known to exist in Poland are are hard to access.) The recordings I have on Silbermann or Harass type harpsichords sound wonderful as well as logical. The sound builds in a special way because overtones mesh beautifully on a harpsichord and the ancient tunings work their part, and they mesh differently compared to Flemish or French types, which Bach most probably never played during his career, but which many "HIP" nevertheless prefer. There are many questionable or fashionable approaches in the HIP world, and a lot of contradictions, just like in the old school.

There still are only a handful or organ recordings using the instruments the closest to his sound ideas, like the magnificent Hildebrandt organ in the St. Wentzel church at Naumburg, which he co-designed. And so on - in the case of Bach we are far from having a representative view of his personal world of sound.

What happened over the centuries was that the approach changed from always new music to wanting to hear the same over and over, the audiences grew larger so the instruments had to be adjusted to fill larger rooms etc. Although HIP is now half a century old (or even older, when we look back at Landowska and the like), and its pioneers are leaving our world (like Gustav Leonhardt in January), we still are at the beginning. That all this music is timeless (otherwise it couldn't touch us today) and time-bound at the same time is very fascinating, IMHO.

My personal part is that I grew up with the sound of an 1840's piano (which I realized only a few years ago) and grew somewhat tired of the - in my ears - over-expressive vibrato-drenched sound of conventional string players. Others may be fascinated by Starker's or Tortellier's approach, and connect this with their own soul, that's perfectly right with me. And with all HIP players, many of whom are influenced by these. It's just that they think they can get closer to what they want with ancient instruments or copies, and I can follow them there.

Edited August 1, 2012 by mikeweil

[Larry Kart]

Of course there is no one size fits all approach - not among the players of the "romantic" school (to which I referred when I said "these players") nor among "HIP" players. I have several recordings of Bach's major works lying around that I like, all with different approaches.

Even if Bach was dissatisfied with some aspects of the instruments he had at his disposal, when he wrote something down, it certainly was with those in mind that he knew his music would be played on. And he took them to their limits, but it always works when one uses the instruments he had....

I\

That last sentence seems to me to call for two qualifications: 1) Provided the players are really good, and too many HIP specialists IMO have been so-so players hiding behind their HIP allrightnik-ness; 2) It also can work like gangbusters on instruments different from the ones Bach had -- no, not the calliope, but ... well, you know the drill.

[mikeweil]

Yes I know the drill ...

ad 1) of course they have to be very good - AFAIK the percentage is about the same in all camps

ad 2) I like Wendy Carlos, and all .... but it doesn't move nearly as much as some period instrument recordings.

The playground has room for verybody. I don't like people saying their approach is the only one - I must admit I read or hear HIP-haters putting down HIP more often than the other way around.

[MomsMobley]

co-sign Mike, and I can spot him distaste for John Holloway's tone; I cut Holloway slack because I grew up on his Biber but it's pretty much the only representative of the style I still abide.

LK, I wouldn't say the lesser HIP people were hiding anything but more than a few did caught between exploratory performance practice, less-than-mind-blowing-chops AND-- this is more key than technique per se (the old Schnabel/Cortot argument on strings) is that the Brits and the Dutch were so damn po' faced... Harnoncourt and his adepts weren't but there the iffy musicianship with ancient instruments can be problem. (Harnoncourt's first St Matthew is still a favorite, however.) With exceptions like the great Skip Sempe (an expat, of course) American baroque music practice is often a bummer too btw-- all those lousy Nicholas McCegan records, American Bach Soloists, etc.

Now let's take the Brandenburgs, listen to the musicianship by

* Cafe Zimmermann

* Hesperion XX (Jordi Savall)

* Concerto Italiano (Rinaldo Allessandrini)

* Il Giardino Armonico

* Freiburg Baroque

* Musik Antique Koln

And it's THRILLING... vastly more satisfying than most 21st c. jazz or "creative improvised music" hokum too btw.

Masaaki Suzuki, alas, is almost Dutch Japanese and usually duller than need be and hiding behind Lutheran liturgy doesn't help.

I heard an excellent interview with Viktoria Mullova a couple years back about her decisions in recording the Bach S&P... Basically, anyone who doesn't consider period instruments even when playing a modern violin is deluding themselves and I agree.

http://www.amazon.com/Sonatas-Partitas-Solo-Violin-Mullova/dp/B001SB1KHW

Same goes for cello of course-- just because SOME period performers are as boring if less bloated than modern performers doesn't mean the sound world is incorrect-- and I'll give up Fournier, sure, and throw out all those old Karl Richter records too (really)... I'll hang on Walcha in mono though.

Of course there is no one size fits all approach - not among the players of the "romantic" school (to which I referred when I said "these players") nor among "HIP" players. I have several recordings of Bach's major works lying around that I like, all with different approaches.

Even if Bach was dissatisfied with some aspects of the instruments he had at his disposal, when he wrote something down, it certainly was with those in mind that he knew his music would be played on. And he took them to their limits, but it always works when one uses the instruments he had....

I\

That last sentence seems to me to call for two qualifications: 1) Provided the players are really good, and too many HIP specialists IMO have been so-so players hiding behind their HIP allrightnik-ness; 2) It also can work like gangbusters on instruments different from the ones Bach had -- no, not the calliope, but ... well, you know the drill.

Edited August 1, 2012 by MomsMobley

[MomsMobley]

Helene Schmitt p/s--

[king ubu]

Do you build houses (or palaces, more likely?) as they had back then, wearing period cloths (no wristwatches, please), smelling as people must have, and only listen to HIP music after having HIP foods and drinks, too?

EDIT: forgot the most important part: where do you go and inhale the quiet, the silence that must have been around in the world back then?

To me, this is all just one of many ways and I'm somewhat pissed by the ideological twist you so often hear when HIP music is being explained.

Edited August 1, 2012 by king ubu

[Larry Kart]

co-sign Mike, and I can spot him distaste for John Holloway's tone; I cut Holloway slack because I grew up on his Biber but it's pretty much the only representative of the style I still abide.

LK, I wouldn't say the lesser HIP people were hiding anything but more than a few did caught between exploratory performance practice, less-than-mind-blowing-chops AND-- this is more key than technique per se (the old Schnabel/Cortot argument on strings) is that the Brits and the Dutch were so damn po' faced... Harnoncourt and his adepts weren't but there the iffy musicianship with ancient instruments can be problem. (Harnoncourt's first St Matthew is still a favorite, however.) With exceptions like the great Skip Sempe (an expat, of course) American baroque music practice is often a bummer too btw-- all those lousy Nicholas McCegan records, American Bach Soloists, etc.

Now let's take the Brandenburgs, listen to the musicianship by

* Cafe Zimmermann

* Hesperion XX (Jordi Savall)

* Concerto Italiano (Rinaldo Allessandrini)

* Il Giardino Armonico

* Freiburg Baroque

* Musik Antique Koln

And it's THRILLING... vastly more satisfying than most 21st c. jazz or "creative improvised music" hokum too btw.

Masaaki Suzuki, alas, is almost Dutch Japanese and usually duller than need be and hiding behind Lutheran liturgy doesn't help.

I heard an excellent interview with Viktoria Mullova a couple years back about her decisions in recording the Bach S&P... Basically, anyone who doesn't consider period instruments even when playing a modern violin is deluding themselves and I agree.

http://www.amazon.com/Sonatas-Partitas-Solo-Violin-Mullova/dp/B001SB1KHW

Same goes for cello of course-- just because SOME period performers are as boring if less bloated than modern performers doesn't mean the sound world is incorrect-- and I'll give up Fournier, sure, and throw out all those old Karl Richter records too (really)... I'll hang on Walcha in mono though.

Of course there is no one size fits all approach - not among the players of the "romantic" school (to which I referred when I said "these players") nor among "HIP" players. I have several recordings of Bach's major works lying around that I like, all with different approaches.

Even if Bach was dissatisfied with some aspects of the instruments he had at his disposal, when he wrote something down, it certainly was with those in mind that he knew his music would be played on. And he took them to their limits, but it always works when one uses the instruments he had....

I\

That last sentence seems to me to call for two qualifications: 1) Provided the players are really good, and too many HIP specialists IMO have been so-so players hiding behind their HIP allrightnik-ness; 2) It also can work like gangbusters on instruments different from the ones Bach had -- no, not the calliope, but ... well, you know the drill.

Yes, but it's got to be on a case-by-case basis. Sampling Cafe Zimmermann, I was thrilled, but I think that Mullova, once a top-class player, has become a one-woman train wreck, at least in Bach. Yes, those chordal passages/strokes are important, but she emphasizes them to an absurd degree IMO with the air of a convert and virtually destroys the relationship between those strokes and the melodic line. By contrast I recently heard Midori in concert play half of the Partitas and Suites. I wouldn't say that in the days before Mullova became a sometime HIP convert that either she or Midori was the better player -- both were in the top class -- but these days Midori's combination of virtuosity and deep musical understanding in Bach leaves Mullova far behind, again IMO. You can find Midori's Bach on Spotify and probably on YouTube. BTW I'm with you on mono Walcha.

Finally, sound-world/performance practice argument(s) need to be looked at far more closely than often seems to be the case

-- not only because what musician X of the past accepted as the norm may or may not have been more or less what he had to accept but also because the historically informed sound world of instruments and the often speculative sound world of performance practice may not always jibe that well, in part because there are good many "informed" views of these matters and other related muscal-historical issues, in part because the final musical dish still has to be prepared by a talented, clear-headed musical cook who knows with his or her own ears the difference between chocolate pudding and a pile of steaming poo. The Mullova who recorded her HIP Bach is, so it seems to me, serving up chocolate-colored poo. Yes, the HIP fiddler next one over may not be, but ... case by case.

[Д.Д.]

Helene Schmitt p/s--

This is excellent. Is Schmitt in Cafe Zimmerman project? Their stuff is killer.Get the complete box: http://www.amazon.es/Conc-Para-Diversos-Instrumentos-6-Cd/dp/B005IQXUQW?SubscriptionId=AKIAIVGTH525N57WM2NQ&tag=pricenoia0e-21&linkCode=xm2&camp=2025&creative=165953&creativeASIN=B005IQXUQW

Edited August 1, 2012 by Д.Д.

[Larry Kart]

Some Midori Bach:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYdmG8ipvzE&feature=related

In particular, check out the Allegro on the second clip; it begins at the 6:36 mark.

And she was even better in person.

[Д.Д.]

Some Midori Bach:

Loved it, just ordered the CD. Thanks!

[J.A.W.]

Bach solo violin--

Modern: Zehetmair, Kremer, Julia Fischer (the last three all HIP influence)... If you gotta go old school, both Milstein are still tolerable but Mullova is better Bach tho' the great Isabelle Faust has only recorded half of 'em so far, when complete hers will almost certainly be way up there--

Isabelle Faust's recording of BWV1001~1003 has just come out in the U.K., so they're now complete: Amazon U.K. The disc will be released in the United States on September 12: Amazon.

Edited August 29, 2012 by J.A.W.

[mandrill]

Has anyone here anything to say about Lara St. John set?

[Д.Д.]

Some Midori Bach:

Loved it, just ordered the CD. Thanks!

Saw Midori live yesterday playing Bach's sonatas and partitas. She was fantastic.

[king ubu]

Some Midori Bach:

Loved it, just ordered the CD. Thanks!

Link please?

I'm too dumb to find it ... all I see is this one:

Or is that l there is? The other result amazon's super-smart tags give me is Midori Seiler's disc of the three partitas (did she do the sonatas, too?)

[J.A.W.]

Some Midori Bach:

Loved it, just ordered the CD. Thanks!

Link please?

I'm too dumb to find it ... all I see is this one:

Or is that l there is? The other result amazon's super-smart tags give me is Midori Seiler's disc of the three partitas (did she do the sonatas, too?)

Yep, that is all there is according to AMG: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/midori-mn0001628166#discography

Edited June 12, 2013 by J.A.W.

[king ubu]

Okay, I thought with all the thumbs up here, there would be a complete recording ...

What's the take on Monica Huggett? I just popped in the first disc as I'm typing this.

[J.A.W.]

Huggett is not the one I would choose in these pieces. I much prefer the performances on both historic and more modern instruments by Rachel Podger (Channel Classics), Viktoria Mullova (Onyx), Alina Ibragimova (Hyperion), Amandine Beyer (Zig-Zag Territoires), Christine Busch (Phi), Liza Ferschtman (Challenge Classics), Hélène Schmitt (Alpha) and especially Isabelle Faust (Harmonia Mundi France).

[king ubu]

Faust I definitely want, and from what little I've heard, I'm interested in Amandine Beyer and Hélène Schmitt ... the others I all don't know yet.

[T.D.]

I have Rachel Podger's Channel Classics recording and like it a lot. My only criticism (subjective, of course) is that I don't feel she totally nails the great Chaconne in D minor, so it may not be the last word in HIP performance...

Edited June 12, 2013 by T.D.

[Д.Д.]

Yep, that is all there is according to AMG: http://www.allmusic.com/artist/midori-mn0001628166#discography

Yes, that's the one I have. i hope she gets to record the whole cycle once.